DACs using dual differential balanced designs - have to be balanced XLR out?

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Hiya everyone, I'm in the market for a dac to finally go streaming. The one I think I might like is dual differential balanced out. I've been informed that on principle it'll only sound of its best going balanced XLR out to my preamp. Is this true/likely?
 

awsmone

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Apr 6, 2014
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Hi Marc

You need to be careful with your impedance matches between DAC and preamplifier

If you go for fully balanced DAC, you will not get the benefit of balanced running it single ended

There are many arguments for and against balanced

The main is common mode rejection in cabling and very long runs, and more consistent connectors and impedance matching

Others argue against the considerable added complexity of balanced

Many DAC chip outputs are designed dual differential but not all

If not I see no advantage in balanced

Having said that everything I own in balanced except my phono stages, as my arms are not balanced wired

I have been playing around between the balanced and singled ended input extensively in the last month between my DA2 and Halcro

The difference are small, and only small preference maybe 80% of time prefer the XLrs

Having said that the single ended having an imaging magic, I cannot get the xlr to quite emulate despite superior timbre, bit annoying,

Just my 2 cents
 

spiritofmusic

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Awsmone, if I add up all the 2cents posts I'll have enough to buy a drink to drown my digital sorrows LOL.
Sure, I'm likely to move past this one.
So, what am I specifically looking at in a dac that will signify it as ideal for single ended RCA out?
 

awsmone

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Do you know what your pres input impedance and internal architecture ie single ended or balanced?
 
Last edited:

awsmone

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I realised your very happy with your cdp, how is this connected ?
 

spiritofmusic

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Awsmone, I'll get back to you the impedance.
NAT Utopia is single ended only, so RCA.
 

adyc

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Can I suggest to have a look at Chord Dave? Dave is a great DAC and is single ended.
 

spiritofmusic

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Willdo
But my thread is just more to clear the air
Dual differential balanced will suffer going RCA out?
 

DaveC

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Nov 16, 2014
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But my thread is just more to clear the air
Dual differential balanced will suffer going RCA out?

It depends on how the SE out is configured but it is true many/most DACs are balanced out and the SE out isn't as good. In this case you can either use a trafo to convert to SE, which is going to be expensive for good trafos, or use a cable that goes from XLR to RCA. The best way to do this is to use a resistor with the same input impedance as your pre from pin3 to ground and use pin2 for + and pin1 for -/ground. Some DACs won't care if pin3 is grounded directly though.
 

Ken Newton

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While that DAC may sound it's best in balanced interconnection mode, it doesn't necessarily mean that you wouldn't also like it's sound if converted to SE.
 

spiritofmusic

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Unfortunately Ken, I'd be buying this dac w'out auditioning it first.
So I won't have a chance to try.
 

Empirical Audio

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Good question. My ODSX is such a DAC, with 4 identical separate channels going to balanced outputs. I generate SE RCA outputs, by only using 2 of the 4 channels. I do this because adding another stage that subtracts the balanced signals adds too much distortion and noise. My DAC has a single output stage that does everything (I/V, gain, Analog filter, compensation) in order to keep the noise and distortion low.

I don't recommend using the SE outputs from my DAC for the main speakers because they just don't sound as good as the balanced outs. I do have a buffer on the 2 RCA channels, so that one can use this to drive a subwoofer. This is to eliminate the additional cable and impedance load that driving both RCA's and XLR's would create.

The devil is in the details with DAC's. Most of them take the + and - signals from the D/A I/V converter stage and after a filtering stage and gain stage subtract them to create a SE output.

Another thing to understand with balanced outputs is that electronically created outputs are the rule in modern designs, not the exception. Unfortunately, these electronically created balanced signals are never truly balanced because:

1) the + and - signals cannot ever be exactly the same amplitude
2) the output impedance and impedance to ground can never be exactly the same
3) the amplitude of the + signal may not always be the same as the - signal as the amplitude changes, a dynamic effect

This is why it's important to consider transformer isolation with something like the Final Drive, Lundahl or the like. If the transformers are high quality, the SQ is usually improved over using no transformer. This is because they provide galvanic isolation of grounds, eliminating ground-loops, and amplifiers usually sound more live when driven with a truly balanced signal.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

spiritofmusic

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Thanks Steve
As always w such in depth answers, I'm left w more qs...
 

microstrip

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Hiya everyone, I'm in the market for a dac to finally go streaming. The one I think I might like is dual differential balanced out. I've been informed that on principle it'll only sound of its best going balanced XLR out to my preamp. Is this true/likely?

Marc,

IMHO your question is too general to be answered properly. We can have excellent sound quality with many principles, all of them leading to compromises. Please give more details and we would be able to post on it. Remember that 99% is the implementation!
 

Empirical Audio

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Since the preamp is actually the component that most often adds the most distortion and noise to the system, I recommend to eliminate it by:

1) use a good transformer-based linestage, not a resistor-based linestage
2) use a DAC with a low distortion volume control technology

or you if you are driving music from a server or computer, you can select a good playback engine like Amarra and use it's volume control up to -9dB of attenuation for one track to the next. -9dB is usually insufficient, so you need a DAC with several gain control settings. Set the DAC and leave it and then control volume from track to track using Amarra or the like. I do this routinely at shows with good results. I have gotten several best of shows even using this technique.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

spiritofmusic

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Ok Steve
My NAT Audio Utopia preamp is single ended only.
The dac I had been thinking of buying has been revealed to me as this dual differential balanced design.
I've been informed this configuration will not sound optimal running single ended out to preamp.
Hence my thread.
 

spiritofmusic

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Steve, no way am I eliminating the preamp.
1- my NAT Utopia I love
2- I run 3 inputs and 2 outputs off it
3- I've had 18 months experience of hearing a dac run with its internal vol control direct to pwr amps, this has now been bypassed using a preamp, and the SQ has jumped.
I'm not changing things around to accommodate the dac.
 

Empirical Audio

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Ok Steve
My NAT Audio Utopia preamp is single ended only.
The dac I had been thinking of buying has been revealed to me as this dual differential balanced design.
I've been informed this configuration will not sound optimal running single ended out to preamp.
Hence my thread.

Then the Final Drive is a perfect solution. It is a transformer that converts balanced to SE and visa-versa. You get the benefits at the DAC, and you get galvanic isolation of DAC to preamp or amps. This is how I use it with my DAC. My SET monoblocks are SE and my DAC needs to be run balanced for best SQ. The FD also allows one to add other analog sources in, up to two more, so it is kind of like a preamp, but not active. I add in my Home Theater system SS processor, for example. It also breaks the ground-loop from my SS processor to the amps.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

Empirical Audio

Industry Expert
Oct 12, 2017
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207
150
Great Pacific Northwest
www.empiricalaudio.com
Steve, no way am I eliminating the preamp.
1- my NAT Utopia I love
2- I run 3 inputs and 2 outputs off it
3- I've had 18 months experience of hearing a dac run with its internal vol control direct to pwr amps, this has now been bypassed using a preamp, and the SQ has jumped.
I'm not changing things around to accommodate the dac.

I cannot blame you, the Utopia is a great pre, the kind of pre that needs to be in every system. This is why you need the very best transformer on the planet for XLR to RCA conversion.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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I hear you Steve, I'll give your product serious consideration.
I have to say that Final Drive plus additional pr Sablon Reserva XLR interconnects pretty much doubles outlay on basic cost of my dac of choice.
 

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