Sonic Advantage of no Preamp / line-stage

G'day maties! gents & sheila's...

Just hurt my back overdoing things at work, out for the count for few days...
On a positive note, and before I could even hardly walk, let alone get out of bed, there was something I wanted to post but just didn't quite have the time, until now!

About two weekends ago, I tried several pre-power combinations on my Ethos, just to see where things are at before I get to the Melbourne HiFi show;

Preamps: CJ ET5, ET3SE, Arc LS28 & GS Pre
Power amps: CJ Classic 60SE, LM125M (mono's), ARC Ref75, GS150 (awaiting to try the new VT80- not out as yet for home demo).

As a rule I wanted to keep the power output in similar areas, between 60w to 100w, and use only SE connections. I was very keen to home demo the new VT80 but my ARC dealer is not ready to give this unit out for home demo's just as yet. It's a matter of time... This is one very interesting power amp, as I think it competes with CJ's 50 to 60 watters, and ARC refers to this amp as their "foundation series."

Anyway, to cut a long story short, as I suppose I can go on all day about every attribute with either of these combinations, which I must say was simply superb driving the Ethos, the one huge factor that I realized was the total lack of noise- absolute zero with the CAV45, hence being a control amplifier.

Nearly all the preamps had tube hiss, and this hiss was very apparent on the CJ's. I also clearly remember when I had the ACT2 and eventually upgraded to the series, even then there was significant tube hiss, and mostly from one channel (left ch).
The ET5 and ET3SE were wonderful sounding musical instruments and very accomplished in their own right. The ARC pre's were equally good and had an effortless sort of drive and control over the Ethos. Not all the ARC pre's had the hiss though, the one with the least hiss was the LS28. The GS pre and almost a similar amount of hiss and would actually attenuate whiles levels were adjusted. This would obviously go unnoticed once music played but was quite apparent when changing tracks...

I remember a good mate of mine, Mr. Ed D from CJ once told me- that a good designed preamp should be neutral sounding and should not add or subtract anything from the source. Be able to convey from the source directly to the power amp and is mostly used for switching. Since this cannot be accomplished, we might as well arrive at the conclusion that the best would be to eliminate the preamp altogether.

And this is exactly what I have experienced with the CAV45. Although rated at only 45w/ch, it was the lowest powered compared to the others, the musicality, the tonal accuracy, the lush timbres and palpable midrange, including the extraordinary resolution, just sounded perfect! Now I am not saying that this little bugger beat the mighty LP125M's (which I liked very much) or the REF75, which was another superb power amp but for the money and value, the CAV45 cannot be ignored.

I am on the quest (on low key) just to see what I could do for pre-power keeping the budget under 15 grand. For around 11 grand, the ET3 & LP125M's are on offer, since these units are being phased off. The ARC gear was costing much more but not the demo units and matching with CJ pre's there is a combination available with the Ref75, not the GS150.

I didn't quite get to use a ARC reference line stage at home, since they wouldn't release any Ref units for such demo's. Only these two ARC pre's were available. Perhaps a REF series ARC pre would not have that significant tube hiss, I wouldn't know.

All I can say is that the simplicity of the CAV45 meets all my expectations for sonic purity at it's best. It will not certainly drive anything out there nor would a pair of EL34's per channel be adequate to drive larger stats full range. However, with a high efficiency stat, having built in DSP and powered bass drives, this to me seems the perfect match so far. I don't see the point in the extra spend at all.

Therefore, I have come to the conclusion that if I am to achieve so called better sound, a significant upgrade would be required and that would involve a complete overhaul in the system. That would probably be either the REN15A driven with any of these pre-power combinations or the CLX's driven in full range with perhaps the GS150 and ET5. For the time being, I have yet to come across a pre-power for 10 grand that can out perform the CAV45.

I was not sure whether this post should go to the CJ forum or not... but what I was trying to point out is that the preamp / line stage is not required in a well matched system using high efficiency speakers in a proper set up.

Cheers to integrated's, I sincerely think whether SS or tube, exceptional designs do offer purer music.
RJ

Hey Harlequin,

Yes, perhaps the Ref series ARC pre's would no doubt be much quieter. However, the price point is far from 10 grand! Believe me, when it comes to Ref standard items in Aus, the pricing is more or less equivalent to a nice car, and brand new for that matter. So that option is out mate.

The main reason why I was looking into this is simply because I was contacted by two individuals. One of them is my good CJ dealer mate, who actually has a pair of LP125m's going for a very tempting offer. The main reason for that is because they've been sitting there since 2011. The other chap purchased a Ref75 from the same dealer who offers ARC & Sonus Faber. He's now using a Magtech amp with his Maggies (MG3.7i) and now wants to get rid of the Ref75. Again another tempting offer for what they're going for. Both sets of amps are used demo, however the CJ LP125m's are much older than the Ref75.

I also contacted the ARC dealer who then lent me the GS pre's as well and other power amps just to compare. I did like the sound very much, I must say, and overall both were very enjoyable with the Ethos offering quite a different type of presentation yet similar tube characteristics. For me though it was the CJ combination that I preferred in terms of that sublime musicality that CJ is known for. On the flip side this is where I noticed right away the tube hiss.

I know the sound of the ARC Ref series preamps and do like them very much. However, their new pricing is not what I'm after, plus I have other priorities at the moment.
I wanted to just experiment with these pre-power combinations just to see where the CAV45 is at or what is lacking in it, if at all. Basically, all I can say is that it held up against these much bigger units extremely well, and had that overall superb balance of synergy for what it delivers with the Ethos. Even the wifey recommends it's a true classic and to keep it.

I remember very clearly nearly 20 years ago, when I was driving my older maggies (MG3.5/R) with a wonderful sounding CJ Premier 11A. Although it didn't quite have the tremendous slam & attack transient bite of those ribbons when driven with much larger power amps, the musicality factor was superb! Knowing what I was in for, I went and sold it off and got a pair of mighty Manley VTL's Ref350's. Huge mono's drove anything and the maggies to full swing BUT it lacked musicality big time! My wife also noticed this straight away, and knew from that point onwards that I was miserable as but pretended to enjoy the Manley's because I had no choice. Then came the Infinity's and a whole different ball game. I certainly don't want to do this same mistake again, and when you know something sounds just perfect- why on earth mess it up?

Therefore, as I stated in my conclusion, if I actually wanted better sound, further improvement in dynamics, transparency, realism and impact, a more lively soundstage- I am looking at a complete overhaul in the system. Upgrading towards a top Ref series pre-power combination would be a good idea. In which case for the value, the ET5 or ET3SE matched with the LP125m's would be the way to go. I am still contemplating whether I really require this upgrade or not... I also know that such an offer would not come up again unless the items were quite old and could not be sold at all, which is the case.

The ARC Ref series pre's are outstanding no doubt but I am not willing to divulge in that kind of spend. I was quite keen on the new VT80, since it also has SE inputs, therefore can easily be used with a SE output pre. I just need to get one in for demo, will have to wait until March/April 2018 for that to happen, according to the ARC chap. Something to do with 6 months sales... Well I guess I'll have to be patient. Not sure if the CJ mono's would still be hanging around, perhaps afterall they've been going nowhere since a while.

Any other suggestions mates, let me know. Also once the new house is done, this is going to be a much larger room. I first wanted to try out the system and actually experience first hand whether an upgrade in power was required. I wouldn't know until Sept/Oct 2018, seems like the wait is forever...
Thanks for the suggestions though, RJ

Blue58 said:

Not sure if this counts as 'no pre' but this unit, a Java Triple Shot, is as close to 'no pre' as I can imagine.
The sound I'm now achieving with this unit in the system is remarkable. By removing the volume control from the T+A Dac circuit the sound has opened up in all parameters and I estimate an improvement of 120% so ridiculous is the change. Perhaps the use of Optocouplers enables it to simply get out of the way of the music.
Here's a stock photo or two.
View attachment 36676 View attachment 36677
Blue58

Click to expand...

Yes mate, this is what I'm talking about. The fact that many preamps claim to be this and that, quiet and so forth, are really not! There are of course some very good designs, such as the ARC Ref series, as Harlequin has pointed out that are super quiet and they are but pricing is in a totally different league. Over here we're talking nearly 20-30 grand just for a pre. The CJGAT2 goes for nearly 30 grand and it still hisses like crazy but when the music starts, it is so spectacular that you actually forget the hiss altogether.

Until I tried a dedicated integrated such as the CAV45, I never realized what a smooth and dead silent system I could achieve. I here far more "into" the music and am totally engaged in it during playback. At first I thought it was to do with the AC power circuits because they're pretty crap over here in this old unit we live in. Hence, I have ordered a dedicated 10Amp line with separate CB on the main board for our new place, and though that this hiss may go away... but then it was nothing to with the AC line!

I can see that this little Java thing is quite amazing, very simplistic in design and looks very clean, well laid out. Therefore, signals should be passed with ease unhindered.
Enjoy mate!
Thanks for sharing that photo, it looks very beautiful and simple.
RJ

Lee said:

Being an ARC Ref guy, I find that very few no pre solutions beat an active line stage. I do have one recommendation, however. The Benchmark AHB2 and DAC3 pairing is pretty damn good just using the built-in preamp of the DAC3.

Click to expand...

Yes agree with you on that Lee. Infact I have been using top line pre's for decades... starting with CJ, Lamm etc., what my point was in a well designed system, having few inputs (just two sources- CDP & TT), and having high efficiency speakers, there's really no point in a preamp at all.

Not everyone can even afford a top end preamp to justify the necessity of having one, let alone going for ARC Ref series pre's. As I said before in Aus land they cost close to a car! We're talking nearly 20 grand here mate and around 25 grand for the top of line Ref series. I say this over and over again and you chappy's in the US of A seem to miss it.

You guys are dam lucky over there, you can even find used gear for chump change... over here mate it is a completely different league. I just inquired on an old pair of Avant Garde Duo's, made somewhere in 2002! The dealer is asking for 15 grand for the pair! That's bloody 15 years old and they're asking 15 grand- now do you get my point?

Not creating an argument here, but for those who cannot afford the lofty offerings of a highend pre/linestage, really don't need one if your system is upto task. A well designed integrated will do just fine.
RJ

Empirical Audio said:

IMO, resistor attenuators are to be avoided for passive linestage. Optically-controlled active devices can be very good. The best I think is a good transformer-based linestage, like a Music-First. Another great option with even better transformers is Teramoto Finemet:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Teramoto-FINEMET-Premium-Transformer-Volume-Control-TVC-Custom-Seiden-Switch-/200870484580?hash=item2ec4d05a64:m:mjVP51UdQVY9HM6HVvGv3RQ

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Teramoto-Large-FINEMET-Core-TVC-Custom-Seiden-Switch-/321669211763?hash=item4ae4faa673

These are the best transformers on the planet IMO.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Click to expand...

Yes, ok but are these units affordable? and are they really necessary to get that pure quality from your recordings?
what price ranges are we talking here?

To me 10 grand for a pre-power is the limit and a well designed integrated will beat that in terms of sonic purity and musicality- on a particular type of system...
RJ

Harlequin said:

Hi RJ, Having just run an exchange rate check on an REF6 UK RRP I quite understand where you are coming from, the passive unit that Blue recommends considering looks to be a very nice, well built, piece of equipment, the topology no doubt suiting the high sensitivity of his AG horns, whether it would provide quite such a synergy with the less than benign load of your ML's I am not quite so sure.

If you would not mind my enquiring of the asking price on the REF 75 ? as I would thoughrly recommend a home demo of this superb little (In relative ARC terms ) stereo amplifier, if feasable.

Click to expand...

G'day Harlequin,

I received your message on my phone last night/ early this am and replied to it but it went missing when I tried to edit something from my phone. It was 2:20am and I was just about to clock off to bed but I wanted to reply to your message to no benefit. Hence, I am sending a much shorter version...

The Ref75 asking price is around 10 grand (used since 2012). The CJ LP125m's are going for 7.5 grand but they are way older than that. The ET5 is around 12 grand and the ET3SE is around 5.5 grand. I can get discounts around 10-20% off depending on cash pay up or how I plan to purchase by trading in my CAV45, which I really don't want to do.

This was first an experiment to see what the Ethos are capable of in terms of higher power driving the panels, and whether there was a remarkable difference or not...
The second plan was to have something for once in my audio life- a good deserving bargain for a pre-power combination, hoping one day to acquire the CLX's. However, according to current priorities, I don't think that's going to happen until my daughter finishes up Uni (she's in year 10 now going to year 11 next year). This seems like an awful long time to wait and I may not have this opportunity again.

Having said that, our new house won't be ready until Sept/Oct 2018. Hence, I wanted to try the system in there first due to the much larger space available. This would also allow me to assess whether or not the CAV45 and drive the Ethos efficiently enough to fill the room nicely and not over power it- like that chap with the CJ Classic 120 and Ren15A.

The smallish unit that we are currently living in is way too small for these, let alone my previous Quads. You've probably seen the photos, the system takes nearly half the space of the lounge and that includes the dinning area- hence when we are having dinner, I have to keep shifting the sofa over just to be able to sit around the table! What a sad story...

Whether or not I would require this much more power is a matter of actually trying out the system in the new place. I really don't think there is any point of demoing in our current "shoe box." The major issue is that this offer is so irresistible, I'm losing sleep over it! Let alone my dam back is still in niggles. I'm in pain even typing this message.

Well that's it for now. Any suggestions or recommendations mate?

I do like the new VT80 from ARC, since it also has SE connections. The Ref 75 does not, and most of the demo's I had at home were with adapter cables. I sincerely feel that this type of connection was a compromise in pure transfer of the audio signal. Hence, most of my comparisons with the Ref75 was done using the LS28 and GS pre. I wanted to try the ET5 with the Ref75 but I will need to arrange this again later on another Sunday. I'm waiting for the VT80 to be released for home demo's, then I can hook this up to an ET3SE.

The wifey on the other hand is not pleased to part with the CAV45 at all. She thinks I'm going to make that same mistake that I did nearly 20 years with the Manley/VTL mono blocks... (having previously owned the wonderful CJ Premier 11A).

Man, this is getting harder than I thought...
RJ

Ron Resnick said:

Howdy, RJ!

Years ago I spent a lot of time with a Mod Squad Line Drive Deluxe and with Electronic Visionary Systems discrete resistor attenuators. At the time I also had a mid-level CJ line stage pre-amp with a built-in phono stage. The Line Drive was a purely passive attenuator and switching box. (The main problem with the Line Drive design was that the volume control position changed the output impedance of the box.)

I think the no active pre-amplifier (the passive attenuator device) thing is seductive initially. You feel that you hear wonderful transparency and a "cleanliness"that you miss with most active line-stages.

But I think the answer to the question really depends on the quality of the active line-stage being compared to the passive box. If you go up the active line-stage food chain at some point the diminution in transparency gets small and is more than offset by an increase in dynamics and richness from the active pre-amplifier.

I ended up selling the Line Drive.

Click to expand...

G'day Ron,

Nice to hear from you mate.

Yes, I can clearly understand your decision and the sonic improvement you experienced. In Nov there will be the Melb Int'l Hi Fi show and I plan to get there on Sunday. I was just wanting to size up the CAV45 against the bigger players and see what benefit the Ethos would deliver. I experienced a superb dynamic effect, with massive transient attacks, greater impact and a stronger presentation in both weight and heft on the bass, which is a funny thing because I thought the bass was taken care of by the built-in amps, not really so, only the very low notes and where it crosses over. Although I experienced this overall "rise in power and finesse" the musicality remained the same, it at all, was actually more seductive on the CAV45 driving the Ethos on its own. Everything sounded as if a veil had been lifted off, any mushiness of transients in the soundstage had totally disappeared, and it was FAR more relaxing to listen to!

This was a huge surprise to me and got me thinking straight away about well designed integrateds / control amps. I do agree with all the other comments made so far on top of line preamps, such as ARC Ref series and CJ's GAT's but these are not in realistic price points for me, at the moment...

My wife thinks that this extra power only created more "doof doof" all she said was that the bass and loudness was greater, and that's all she wrote! She didn't like it at all, perhaps the room was way to small for these much larger amps. Our shoe box can only take so much, hence I think a fairer comparison would have been to have this demo in our new place, which won't be ready till bloody 2018 end!

The wait is as agonizing as my back right now...
Cheers and have a good one mate,
RJ

Ron Resnick said:

RJ, What about a used Aesthetix Calypso Eclipse?

Click to expand...

what the hec is that? sounds like a bad spell mate... something from Alice in wonderland