What is this "Noise" so many Audiophiles are talking about? Anyone really Understand?

caesar

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I am not an audiophile, but whenever I read about a product, whether a new tweak, a new DAC, or an upgraded speaker someone is raving about, there is always a mention of a reduction in "noise" and as a result, more musical information.

Does anyone understand what this "noise" is? Or just an intellectually lazy term that can mean anything? What types of different "noises" are there?
 

ack

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Are you really serious?
 

spiritofmusic

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Whoops-a-daisy! This thread has ALREADY got noisier LOL.
 

panreels

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What is noise? Well for example turn on your stereo system turn the volume all the way down put your ear up to the speakers, you should here nothing if you do that is noise, now turn your system to phono turn the volume up to where it would be if your listening to music you should here nothing, if you do that is noise, in fact in a good system you should be able to turn the volume all the way up and still here nothing, so noise is anything you here that is not part of the music is noise be it hum a buzz or hiss this can also be called noise floor or signal- to- noise ratio, I hope this help.
 

NorthStar

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Noise is like a cancer that affects our hearing; just look @ Cuba and the noise cannons. ...Most likely a Russian technology.

;-)
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noise
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Bonus:

"There is substantial controversy on the subject of audiophile components; many have asserted that the occasionally high cost produces no measurable improvement in audio reproduction. For example, skeptic James Randi, through his foundation One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge, has offered a prize of $1 million to anyone who can demonstrate that $7,250 audio cables "are any better than ordinary audio cables". In 2008, audio reviewer Michael Fremer attempted to claim the prize, and said that Randi declined the challenge. Randi said that the cable manufacturer Pear Cables was the one who withdrew.

Criticisms usually focus on claims around so-called "tweaks" and accessories beyond the core source, amplification, and speaker products. Examples of these accessories include speaker cables, component interconnects, stones, cones, CD markers, and power cables or conditioners.

There is disagreement on how equipment testing should be conducted and as to its utility. Audiophile publications frequently describe differences in quality which are not detected by standard audio system measurements and double blind testing, claiming that they perceive differences in audio quality which cannot be measured by current instrumentation, and cannot be detected by listeners if listening conditions are controlled, but without providing an explanation for those claims."

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Is sound coloration and audio noise good?
...Like film grain in movies (eg.; Lawrence of Arabia and Doctor Zhivago) and colorization after post production.

Audiophile amplifiers that measure extremely low in noise, Bryston, are they more accurate in sound reproduction, are they more pleasant in music listening? Do audiophile audio cables with the best resistance, best impedance, best capacitance, best inductance, ...produce the best sound possible with the less noise and coloration for the most pleasurable and preferable and reference music listening experience?
 
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Folsom

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What is noise? Well for example turn on your stereo system turn the volume all the way down put your ear up to the speakers, you should here nothing if you do that is noise, now turn your system to phono turn the volume up to where it would be if your listening to music you should here nothing, if you do that is noise, in fact in a good system you should be able to turn the volume all the way up and still here nothing, so noise is anything you here that is not part of the music is noise be it hum a buzz or hiss this can also be called noise floor or signal- to- noise ratio, I hope this help.

That is acoustical noise. I call it anoise. But it's not generally what people refer to as noise when they're talking about it. There are countless amps that will let you hear a hiss sound when your ear is within a couple inches of the tweeter. We're talking amps that cost $100 to over $200k. Simply put, that isn't a way to measure quality, ever.

If something is audible where you sit without music playing, that's an artifact and assuredly means something is broken.

I understand the term but hate what the term is. 'Noise' is misguiding for so many, especially those new to the hobby. The noise most refer to is not audible itself, but the effects of it are.

Now that's a correct assessment. Electrical noise, or enoise for short, is the "bad guy". The majority of it is in frequencies higher than any tweeter can reproduce; so obviously you can't hear it. But you can hear the affect it has on the music signal itself. It doesn't create artifacts, it reshapes the music itself. You can clearly hear the difference by changing between lower enoise and higher enoise in many situations.

The radical thing is that audiophiles often prefer a lot of enoise because it gives effects to the music that they enjoy. No one will publicly state that their product does that... but it's measurable, identifiable, simulatable, and repeatable. It is seen in all product ranges with no limit to the $ the piece costs. Simple thing is that people like it, someone sells it - even if the reason is a lie.

It's very important to note that enoise, as you cannot hear it itself, is not necessarily good or bad, but more subjective from a listener stand point. From an engineering stand point it is bad for any non-subjective pov.
 

NorthStar

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What about the noise in our own room's acoustics? That is audiophile's noise too.
The noise from the audio gear is one thing, the electric current from our electrical systems @ home and the wiring and the power junction box is another, the electric post outside in the street, the closest one to our house, the electric company, the transformers used, the fuses they use, the distance from the main power grid, ...does that count as various audiophile noise levels?

Everything must be important.
 

treitz3

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This "noise" is an unwanted artifact that masks the musical information that is present in the recording. It can come in many forms and from many different sources. You will know it immediately when it is gone but most folks don't know it's even there until it is gone.

"Those that don't know they don't know, don't know they don't know until they know".

Tom
 

Folsom

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This "noise" is an unwanted artifact that masks the musical information that is present in the recording. It can come in many forms and from many different sources. You will know it immediately when it is gone but most folks don't know it's even there until it is gone.

"Those that don't know they don't know, don't know they don't know until they know".

Tom

It's important to note it's only an artifact when looking at it as enoise, with measuring equipment. You don't hear an artifact unless something is literally broken. (60hz hum would be an artifact if you hear it while hearing music)

Sadly adding or subtracting enoise can results in different audiophiles exclaiming the same result despite two different things happening. Manufacturers have made it as confusing as possible...
 

the sound of Tao

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I am not an audiophile, but whenever I read about a product, whether a new tweak, a new DAC, or an upgraded speaker someone is raving about, there is always a mention of a reduction in "noise" and as a result, more musical information.

Does anyone understand what this "noise" is? Or just an intellectually lazy term that can mean anything? What types of different "noises" are there?
Hi Caesar,

There's noise and there's signal I suppose. We talk about similar concepts in landscape design and architecture as well as in graphic design. In context of audio there's total system noise, which can include individual components noise and their interrelated noise floors, external noise including all electrical and ambient noise. In the listening experience there is also the distracting visual noise of lighting and glare, visual detail and chaos of messy or chaotic rooms that create distraction, and I'd add the visual noise of the gear itself that all work to distract you from the signal, the experience of the music.

Just as an aside a super fascinating starting line to the OP... you have probably started more audio based threads than anyone here, and lots with very super intently audiophile style questions, you are constantly talking about gear and audiophile process like system setup, debating the differences between formats and types of gear... just wondering how are you not an audiophile? Also why is it the opening statement... is it actually relevant to the topic at hand or is it just a bit of additional noise to get some attention to the thread. It's very cool to be in denial but all of us who spend as many hours pondering audio systems will struggle to avoid the tag I reckon.
 

Kingsrule

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Its the noise a transport makes

Its the noise a turntable makes

Its the noise that most here like as the "analogue" sound
 

Mike Lavigne

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it's hard to separate the concept of noise from the concept of distortion. maybe distortion is a type of noise.

noise as high end audiophiles use the term is a (1) relative thing, and (2) an artifact of non linear actions by circuits and transducers. it can also be an artifact of room acoustics as reflective hash. even non linear bass nodes are forms of noise. although we don't typically call low frequency distortion noise, it is the same type thing.

when viewed as a relative thing, noise is what is the gets reduced when clarity, vividness and dynamics are increased. so it's a component of the sound that overlays the musical information in the original media and signal path .....a sort of veiling. some noise is inherent in every format. there is alwys some noise; it's either more or less.

when viewed as non-linear distortion, it's hash, or grit, or congestion......when a circuit or transducer is not working optimally. if a stylus is not traveling in the groove absolutely tangentially then the non-linear part of the result is noise. if the amplifier over-drives the speaker driver the non-linearity is noise. if the A/C power has ripples or less than pristine components then power supplies will yield some noise as a result with the signal they produce.

this is just how I use the term and contexts I use it in. YMMV, just my 2 cents. I never took an engineering course, and am technically limited in knowledge. maybe there is a simpler, more elegant, comprehensive explanation.

is there 'good/desired' noise? or 'good/desired' distortion? I suppose there is. but likely that subject is a matter of preference.
 
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Folsom

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it's hard to separate the concept of noise from the concept of distortion. maybe distortion is a type of noise.

noise as high end audiophiles use the term is a (1) relative thing, and (2) an artifact of non linear actions by circuits and transducers. it can also be an artifact of room acoustics as reflective hash. even non linear bass nodes are forms of noise. although we don't typically call low frequency distortion noise, it is the same type thing.

when viewed as a relative thing, noise is what is the gets reduced when clarity, vividness and dynamics are increased. so it's a component of the sound that overlays the musical information in the original media and signal path .....a sort of veiling. some noise is inherent in every format. there is alwys some noise; it's either more or less.

when viewed as non-linear distortion, it's hash, or grit, or congestion......when a circuit or transducer is not working optimally. if a stylus is not traveling in the groove absolutely tangentially then the non-linear part of the result is noise. if the amplifier over-drives the speaker driver the non-linearity is noise. if the A/C power has ripples or less than pristine components then power supplies will yield some noise as a result with the signal they produce.

this is just how I use the term and contexts I use it in. YMMV, just my 2 cents. I never took an engineering course, and am technically limited in knowledge. maybe there is a simpler, more elegant, comprehensive explanation.

is there 'good/desired' noise? or 'good/desired' distortion? I suppose there is. but likely that subject is a matter of preference.

Mike, I want to be fair as I know why you describe things the way you do. Your descriptions make sense when you only look at them as descriptions of the what you hear, not why you hear it. Once you start applying the same description to the electronics they no longer fit.

When you hear the music sounds "not linear" as a momentary aberration, like it tried but didn't make it... that isn't a function of linearity. An aberration is when what you hear sounds distorted from what you would know the original to be (or the like), but is not a product of voltage distortion (linearity) unless something is broken. They are two different things. What you're hearing most of the time is inadequacy in current delivery, which is a complex interaction from the source to the speaker, each able to cause you to hear a momentary "distortion", aka an aberration, in the listening experience. The thing is that actual distortion (linearity) is generally speaking very consistent, were as aberrations come and go with different moments of music.

I do think your mention of nodes and reflection are great examples of anoise (acoustical noise), btw. But 98% of the time no one is talking about that when they say noise (enoise).

A lot of enoise, depending on the frequency, can certainly reduce clarity, but isn't an artifact in any such way (unless something is broken). Other frequencies enhance the experience for many, making enoise a benefit. And you're right it's always there. It's easily explained fact that electricity on wires or in the air can only divide or multiply, never subtract or add (even when you can use + or - to get the same math equation result).

Can enoise cause aberrations? yes & no because it isn't momentary but could be seen as consistent aberration. It isn't an obvious thing in equipment that isn't broken. It's like Tom said, you don't know till it's gone. You gain some clarity you didn't really imagine possible. It isn't a momentary experience of aberration, but rather a consistent one so it doesn't really read obvious to most listeners.

So in general, no, all those different momentary things are not "noise" as being discussed here.

Enoise comes from many places, and it's a deep subject. Generally speaking the AC from wall is a huge source, and your gear can feed some back into it. But it's also in the air... and so on.
 

treitz3

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It's important to note it's only an artifact when looking at it as enoise, with measuring equipment. You don't hear an artifact unless something is literally broken. (60hz hum would be an artifact if you hear it while hearing music)

Sadly adding or subtracting enoise can results in different audiophiles exclaiming the same result despite two different things happening. Manufacturers have made it as confusing as possible...
Either you hear it or you do not. There is no confusion with this.....unless you do not know that you are hearing it. Again, once it is gone? You know that it is gone. Simple, really. Regardless of the "noise" thrown at the situation.

Measurements have not one thing to do with this. You either hear it or you do not.

Tom
 

Folsom

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There are aberrations and there are artifacts. They are not the same thing. I've never heard an audiophile point out an actual artifact, ever. But they call aberrations as artifacts all day long.

Tom, you got to understand that this doesn't end at descriptions. Audio designers have to make the talk applicable to what they're doing.
 

treitz3

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They are the same thing to me. Unwanted "whatever" you want to call it. Be it noise, artifacts, aberrations, etc.. They are all unwanted, along with other things that can block or mask a great recording from getting through.

What do you mean that I have to understand that this doesn't end at descriptions? You lost me there.

Tom
 

Folsom

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I mean that measurements are important. Measuring the things we hear allows audio designers to make better products.

Where things can get really complicated is that certain enoise is seen as beneficial. So actually not everything is unwanted. Sadly many manufacturers tell you they "reduced noise" when they increased it, in order to achieve a sound many love. That's really tricky however because the frequencies of enoise can be very bad, but others can give a lot of what people seek.

The best example of enoise that people want is when it heightens detail a lot, and gives a "blacker" back ground. That kind of change is described as less noise by the listener, but is actually achieved 9 out of 10 by adding enoise is particular frequency ranges. There are countless examples. One other one is using a nasty noisy transistors in front of an otherwise extremely well engineered amplifiers. Why? because it makes the sound people like. As long as you are not bent out of shape by the concept of enoise being beneficial, there isn't a reason not to indulge if you like the results. It's not like recording studios are perfect, so why should our stereos be "perfect".

A big question does come up however, is it worth trying to develop common language for things we hear? It's a good question because while I'm saying it's important in descriptions for numerous reasons, that doesn't mean audiophiles need to find those reasons of value, to them. But if you ask the question what is noise, I will try to give you the info that runs congruent from concept to product to listening.
 

Ronm1

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Well my 2cents. Noise is generally anything that interferes with what I call blackness. Clarity is obviously affected which will mask imaging in our soundstage. As others have mentioned you may not realize it's there till its eliminated and/or abated. I'm not talking distortion here that's a different kettle of fish. As excellent clarity or blackness will make distortion even more noticeable.
IMHO of course
 

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