Spec Corp Jp GMP-8000 tt

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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853, I've tried on multiple occasions to get thru to Win of Saskia.
Tbh, the $53k is really too rich for my blood, and so it's good I move on.
But it's the one tt over the last 5 yrs that has stirred my blood the most.
The Spec is going to prove a mirage too, but for different reasons. It exists and is in current production, and can be bought at a much more palatable price, but exposure to demo is severely limited.
 

PeterA

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Dec 6, 2011
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Peter, it is very tough to compare sources across systems, unless you can swap in and out. With Analog it is extremely difficult.

That said, in Mike's set up, the NVS cannot be judged. That is because, his system is set up in such a way that the NVS has to get out of the way. It has to be...boring and invisible, so that the recording can flow through. If you move from digital to NVS and see a sudden bass bump, slam, or extra decay that you can attribute to the TT, that defeats his purpose. However, as you keep playing, and as you move from Anna to the GFS on the top Durand arm, you see the differences, yet the NVS continues to be invisible. The recordings, genre, complexity, change presentation.

I completely agree that it is extremely difficult to compare sources across systems. It will be interesting to read next year if indeed the American Sound is more or less "invisible" than the NVS in Mike's very transparent and highly resolving system. That is an interesting term. If there is a sonic difference between the two turntables, given the same arm and cartridge, then I guess one is less invisible than the other. On the other hand, I suspect one might bring "more" of something, hopefully "goodness", than the other, and if that is the case, then "invisibility" is not a term that I would use.

Like "transparency", I suppose there are different degrees of invisibiity.
 

tima

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Mar 3, 2014
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Tima, I'm actively trying to get a demo of the GPA Parabolica.
It'll have to be in Europe for personal reasons (despite me living in the UK), and it's certainly a candidate.
So I'm not totally obsessed with under the radar products.
And no doubt my experience of Kuzma Stabi M was 100% positive.
And it's highly illogical to think about under the radar products, esp in the analog world.
However had I been one for investing in the usual suspects, I wouldn't have found my unique synergy of rim drive tt, air arm, cart not using a phono, cdp w unique transport and dac output stage, powerful SETs and full range/no crossover/v high eff spkrs.

I applaud your interest in actually trying to listen to 'tables before making a choice. And I understand just how difficult that can be, and when it happens doing so with unfamiliar gear in an unfamiliar room for a short period does not make it easy. I bought my first Monaco without hearing it. What I did do was research 'tables in my price range for half a year. That helped me develop a set of sonic priorities and those led me to topology and implementation options - all in light of my years of analog experience up to that point. I'd like to say that paid off but I was also lucky to select a TT whose next model (unavailable at the time I purchased) exceeded all expectations of what was possible from a TT.

I've come to believe the most significant components in an analog system, those having the most influence on what we hear, are the transducers. At the source, if the initial wave form created is not right then nothing downstream - all the drive and authority in the world - will fix it. What are the necessary and sufficient conditions for a TT to create an accurate wave form?

I read your views on the hardware but what I'd like to learn is what are your sonic priorities and your views on what an analog source should do?
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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As it stands, with my house move in effect putting greater demands on my finances than my previous life in London, the odds of me spending big on a last and final tt purchase are small.
But I'm also determined to be selfish and treat myself if I decide I'm worth it LOL.
Stupid as it sounds, I may take a punt on this Spec tt. I'll research it fully, see if I can get a visit to the one European owner who runs it, or in effect do what Christian has done with his AS choice, and buy w'out listening.
I think after having heard some top tts over the years, I know what I like and what I don't, and critically what engineering/design choices appeal to me.
And the Spec incorporates all of those.
Except for one main thing, the fact I turned away from belt drive to go idler/rim.
However, the more I consider things, the more I think that a high torque coreless and ripple-free motor approach with enough grippiness to fully control an oversized 16" gunmetal platter, will give me sufficient idler drive like quality while still maintaining what I admit belt drive is best at ie low noise microdynamics, shimmer and delicacy.
And this one is thread drive, which I'm led to believe is superior to belt drive in transmitting torque.
I suspect these are the things that have enabled Mike to return to belt drive with the AS-2000 after a decade and a half with first the Rockport, and then NVS, DDs.
 

spiritofmusic

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Tima, for me a big part of my evolution has been to try and get analog and digital to converge.
That's meant finding digital with the density of good analog, and critically the ability to tonally differentiate between cds.
My Eera Tentation does this better than any other cdp I've heard by a long chalk, and maybe is only beaten in absolute terms by Mike's MSB Select 3 box.
My analog has fallen way behind my digital 7-8 years ago (Michell Orbe belt drive/SME V arm v my Emm Labs CDSA SE at the time), esp in terms of rhythmic snap, bass control and mids clarity, and so I looked for a tt that could get more neutrality in my sound, but not at the expense of natural warmth and bloom/decay.
I demoed an SME 20, TW AC3 and Brinkmann La Grange, but despite many impvts, they didn't go far enough, and at this point I felt maybe it was belt drive that was the reason. I'd been following Mike's Rockport and early NVS experiences, with reference to stylus drag etc, and investigated modded Garrard 301s and Lencos and suddenly I got a taste of what I think I was missing, a "certitude" of pinning the message down, as opposed to a vaguely imprecision of intent, ie the meaning of the musicians loud and clear as opposed to just the usual audiophile checklist of detail, imaging etc etc.
I heard this in the Garrards I listened to, but it was best represented in the frankly ludicrously underpriced Trans Fi Salvation rim drive tt and Terminator air bearing linear tracker, that obviously gave me yet more positives, bass with no overhang and a real sense of realistic air and speed.
All with none of the slight euphonic warmth I hear in idlers like the 301.
So I now have digital that snaps at the heels of good analog with great warmth and tonal discrimination, and analog that back in London triumphs on digital territory of neutrality, speed and bass cleanliness/impact.
---
Now this effectively means I'm set for life, which I am. But I am fully aware belt/string drive still brings advantages to the party in terms of lower noise, better microdynamics, better shimmer and natural decay, and my analog is more matter of fact here.
---
What I have to work out is whether something like the Spec, with its string drive transmitting torque from a big motor output to oversized flywheel effect maxxing platter will replicate most of what I currently have and add a dose of hard to live without non idler/rim delicacy and filigree quality, that it's worth the paradigm shift away from idler/rim again.
 

Mike Lavigne

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I completely agree that it is extremely difficult to compare sources across systems. It will be interesting to read next year if indeed the American Sound is more or less "invisible" than the NVS in Mike's very transparent and highly resolving system. That is an interesting term. If there is a sonic difference between the two turntables, given the same arm and cartridge, then I guess one is less invisible than the other. On the other hand, I suspect one might bring "more" of something, hopefully "goodness", than the other, and if that is the case, then "invisibility" is not a term that I would use.

Like "transparency", I suppose there are different degrees of invisibiity.

well......I have the gold standards for audio transports sitting right there; a 1/4" and 1/2" Studer A-820 RTR's as my references. the American Sounds either gets closer to them, or not.

I confidently expect it will get closer. which; to my way of thinking, will make it disappear (and the music immerge) even more, not less. when I listen to tape, the RTR decks disappear from the musical message more than any other type of music format reproduction.

at ddk's, I did not hear American Sounds artifacts......I heard more musical essence and involvement. but; there are no certainties in life so we will just have to see what happens.
 
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tima

Industry Expert
Mar 3, 2014
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Tima, for me a big part of my evolution has been to try and get analog and digital to converge.
That's meant finding digital with the density of good analog, and critically the ability to tonally differentiate between cds.
My Eera Tentation does this better than any other cdp I've heard by a long chalk, and maybe is only beaten in absolute terms by Mike's MSB Select 3 box.
My analog has fallen way behind my digital 7-8 years ago (Michell Orbe belt drive/SME V arm v my Emm Labs CDSA SE at the time), esp in terms of rhythmic snap, bass control and mids clarity, and so I looked for a tt that could get more neutrality in my sound, but not at the expense of natural warmth and bloom/decay.
I demoed an SME 20, TW AC3 and Brinkmann La Grange, but despite many impvts, they didn't go far enough, and at this point I felt maybe it was belt drive that was the reason. I'd been following Mike's Rockport and early NVS experiences, with reference to stylus drag etc, and investigated modded Garrard 301s and Lencos and suddenly I got a taste of what I think I was missing, a "certitude" of pinning the message down, as opposed to a vaguely imprecision of intent, ie the meaning of the musicians loud and clear as opposed to just the usual audiophile checklist of detail, imaging etc etc.
I heard this in the Garrards I listened to, but it was best represented in the frankly ludicrously underpriced Trans Fi Salvation rim drive tt and Terminator air bearing linear tracker, that obviously gave me yet more positives, bass with no overhang and a real sense of realistic air and speed.
All with none of the slight euphonic warmth I hear in idlers like the 301.
So I now have digital that snaps at the heels of good analog with great warmth and tonal discrimination, and analog that back in London triumphs on digital territory of neutrality, speed and bass cleanliness/impact.
---
Now this effectively means I'm set for life, which I am. But I am fully aware belt/string drive still brings advantages to the party in terms of lower noise, better microdynamics, better shimmer and natural decay, and my analog is more matter of fact here.
---
What I have to work out is whether something like the Spec, with its string drive transmitting torque from a big motor output to oversized flywheel effect maxxing platter will replicate most of what I currently have and add a dose of hard to live without non idler/rim delicacy and filigree quality, that it's worth the paradigm shift away from idler/rim again.

Yeah, I'm only able to afford to do one media format really well. I had not listened to a CD for eight some odd months. When I put my player back in system for someone elses needs a couple weeks ago, I knew I made the right choice. From here, speed and bass cleanliness/impact are very much available from vinyl. The audiophile vocabulary can be pretty limiting. A well resolved system should be able to communicate intent in terms of performance techniques or as I'd label it: muscianship.

A 'tables drive topology is critical to its success, but I don't know if you can break done sonic results in a way that has some attributes or characteristics being particular to one drive type. I'd say judge each 'table individually on its merits.

Do you have a few albums you use to gauge what you hope to hear from a turntable? That can tell you what is present or lacking in terms of what you're looking for?
 

spiritofmusic

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Tima, as I get older, I notice the ironies in life more.
And one of those is that different drivetrain techs on tts have their own set of pros and cons, often mutually exclusive.
So I absolutely love the certainty and intent I get from my direct rim drive, and I hear it from well implemented idler and DD as well.
In effect a more tangible feel for what the musicians are playing, more impulse to the music.
But the flip side is some masking of absolute transparency so that some subtleties, inflections and trails are obscured.
For me this has been a reasonable payoff because the boost to impulse energy in music has been so beneficial here.
---
But my thought may be that the Spec implementation of thread drive could maintain a lot of what I like about my direct rim drive via the combination of overly powerful and torquey coreless ripple-free DC motor coupling v directly via the taut thread to the heavy and 16" oversized gunmetal platter, so keeping this certainty in the music I love at the moment but reintroducing/revealing those things I know I'm missing out on somewhat, the extra delicacy, fineness, filigree sparkle, shimmer, reverb, small things in life.
My system doesn't miss these dramatically, but there is some dryness and truncating in these details.
Would something like the Spec reintroduce this extra magic w'out jettisoning what I currently love?
 

KeithR

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If you didn't know, the SPEC is distributed by the Shindo importer in the US. Ive heard both but while good, have always seemed kinda overpriced in the States to be honest. I certainly wouldn't buy one sight unseen.

Spirit- is 47 Labs distributed in UK? Your old Zu buddy Phil, a DD/idler fan as you know, is considering one.
 

853guy

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Aug 14, 2013
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Spirit- is 47 Labs distributed in UK? Your old Zu buddy Phil, a DD/idler fan as you know, is considering one.

Love the looks of the Koma/Tsurube table/arm. Never heard one, but as a piece of industrial design I find it to be an exceptionally well-conceived piece of art.

Best,

853guy
 

KeithR

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Love the looks of the Koma/Tsurube table/arm. Never heard one, but as a piece of industrial design I find it to be an exceptionally well-conceived piece of art.

Best,

853guy

Yes, indeed it is - and why I thought Spirit might be interesting in hearing one. 47 Labs has been around for many years as well, despite being a smaller/under the radar manufacturer.
 

spiritofmusic

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Guys, I'm not sure this is a current production model.
And I'm not convinced by the counter rotating platter thing.
I'm looking for simple engineering taken to a high level, and the Spec floats my boat more there.
Also, I can't see any addressing of vibration isolation in the 47Labs tt.
---
If I move from high torque direct rim drive, I'm looking for what the Spec provides, powerful ripple-free motor, direct connection to platter providing high moment of inertia and maxxed flywheel effect, and plinth optimised for isolation/resonance management.
I actually have less and less interest in tts packed with innovative tech like the Kronos, Dohmann and AF.
 

PeterA

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Guys, I'm not sure this is a current production model.
And I'm not convinced by the counter rotating platter thing.
I'm looking for simple engineering taken to a high level, and the Spec floats my boat more there.
Also, I can't see any addressing of vibration isolation in the 47Labs tt.
---
If I move from high torque direct rim drive, I'm looking for what the Spec provides, powerful ripple-free motor, direct connection to platter providing high moment of inertia and maxxed flywheel effect, and plinth optimised for isolation/resonance management.
I actually have less and less interest in tts packed with innovative tech like the Kronos, Dohmann and AF.

Why not a Micro Seiki?
 

JackD201

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Apr 20, 2010
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Guys, I'm not sure this is a current production model.
And I'm not convinced by the counter rotating platter thing.
I'm looking for simple engineering taken to a high level, and the Spec floats my boat more there.
Also, I can't see any addressing of vibration isolation in the 47Labs tt.
---
If I move from high torque direct rim drive, I'm looking for what the Spec provides, powerful ripple-free motor, direct connection to platter providing high moment of inertia and maxxed flywheel effect, and plinth optimised for isolation/resonance management.
I actually have less and less interest in tts packed with innovative tech like the Kronos, Dohmann and AF.

Interesting. "String drive" seems another way of saying "non-elastic belt". SPEC also mentions a way of setting tension for such non-elastic belts. These are basic features of all AF tables. I suppose it is part of what gives them DD/Idler like explosiveness along with the vacuum vibration damping chambers inside the platters. You know, the ones that work so well you can tap on the label while the record is playing and have virtually nothing come out of your speakers :)
 

spiritofmusic

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Guys, my recent threads on Saskia and Spec were primarily started to get listening experiences of these two tts.
Saskia, nothing, and Spec, not much better, just a couple of positive reports from Mike L and ALF, but these just show reports, not user reviews.
The UK dealer for Spec reliably informs me only one exists in a system in Europe, the vast majority being sold within Japan/SE Asia.
So, these two remain pipe dreams in terms of practical ownership, Saskia in effect non existent, Spec exists, but demo and ongoing service not a tangible reality.
Saskia is now crossed off my list, Spec is still on it, and if things become more concrete on its reality, I'll be open.
My thoughts on interesting left field choices turn to other examples too, like the Primary Control Kinea DD, which I know I can hear in NL, and have struck up contact with the designer.
 

BruceD

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Also bear in mind the Spec will only accom' 12" arms or more--so that rules out the SAT

BD
 

spiritofmusic

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Bruce, £25k rules out the SAT too, so no problem there!
I'm actually looking at something that will be a good alternative to the SME308, EMT997 and FR64 that might be the more typical choice for this kind of tt, namely the SAEC 506, which can be had professionally refurbed by Italian master jeweller for €3.5k.
The Spec/SAEC combo has the potential to be absolutely superb for £18-20k, right at the low end of stratospheric analog front end pricing.
I just have to find a way to justify going this route
1- current analog when reinstalled doesn't cut it
2- I conclude what the Spec/SAEC combo gives me is indeed what I want/value in analog playback
3- I feel I can take the risk on an analog front end with no official demo, and as minimal market presence as you can imagine in Europe (one Spec, in Germany).
 

Tango

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Also bear in mind the Spec will only accom' 12" arms or more--so that rules out the SAT

BD

Actually, around second quarter next year you can get 12" SAT.

Kind regards,
Tang
 

christoph

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I actually have less and less interest in tts packed with innovative tech like the Kronos, Dohmann and AF.

High hanging grapes HAVE to be very sour :rolleyes:
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Christoph, you mean I'm like the fox who can't reach the grapes and hence calls them undesirable, so I can't afford those tts and call them of no interest to me?
I guess it could be seen that way, but it's actually not true.
I'm v turned in by tts that have simpler, less complex ways of achieving their goals, and those ways engineered to the max.
This includes my direct rim drive, Kuzma Stabi M belt drive, this Spec string drive, and the AS-2000 that Mike L et al are buying.
I'm not bowled over by counter rotating platters, vacuum hold down, etc etc. No criticism of these designs or their fans, I'm just more in the simple but overengineered simple approach.
The Spec fits the bill for me on theoretical grounds. And I love the Old School artisan vibe in the design/construction.
 

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