"They Are Here" or "We Are There"?

caesar · Oct 15, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
"They are here" or "we are there"? Which one of these illusions should we by seeking to create to permit suspension of disbelief?

Are these incompatible objectives? Do we have to select in advance one or the other of these as an objective for our audio systems?

Does certain equipment achieve one of them and other equipment achieve the other?

Which is harder to achieve?

I want to achieve "we are there."

Ron, who is designing your room? Whom does Mr. Gryphon recommend to design the room for his Pendragons?

You can learn all the science you want, and talk to dozens of acousticians, and the sound in your room will be a crap shoot. Guys who build their speakers usually know the type of room they will work best in and who can achieve that. As an example, MBL is highly successful with SMT.

As others have said, having a great room will allow your system to carve out the acoustical space of the recording in your room. Then it will be up to your recordings and imagination to determine if you are there or they are here.

caesar · Oct 15, 2017

marty said:
+1
It's interesting becasue this is probably a not uncommon practice among many on this forum, yet, to the best of my knowledge, has never been discussed deeply. My guess is that it is because of social stigma which still occurs despite being in an age where legalization is becoming more widespread and common. Do we have the courage to start a new thread on this?

Do we really want, in addition to the usual tubes vs. ss and digital vs. analog preference fights, arguments from the trippers about whehter the magic mushrooms vs. acid transports them here or there? Or potheads arguing about indica vs. sativa creating the best illusion?

Ron Resnick · Oct 15, 2017

caesar said:
Ron, who is designing your room? Whom does Mr. Gryphon recommend to design the room for his Pendragons?

You can learn all the science you want, and talk to dozens of acousticians, and the sound in your room will be a crap shoot.

. . .

The "room" is a dedicated space but not really a dedicated room. One-half of the left side of the space (towards the rear wall) is open to the kitchen, and one-third of the right side of the space (towards the rear wall) is open to the equipment room. Finally, an asymmetrical ceiling soffit steps down above the left rear side of the room.

The walls of the room are what they are (some concrete and some drywall) so I do not conceive of the project as "designing" the room in the sense of building a "room within a room" or ceiling resonators or bass traps or other structural audiophile improvements. I am not do anything structurally to the walls of the room. It is just a matter of fixing drywall and painting the walls. This is in no way a purpose-built room like MikeL or Marty designed.

I had a fully-functioning stereo (also with dipole speakers) in this room with only some carpet and some ASC Tube Traps and Tower Slims, and I was happy with the sound. I think 14 foot ceilings help a lot.

Steve's and Bob Vin's acoustician, Bonnie Schnitta, will be measuring and making recommendations. Acoustically necessary or not I would like a movable drapes arrangement on the side walls and the rear wall to create the contour of a rectangle to delineate visually the four "walls" of a room.

I also still have the ASC Tube Traps and Tower Slims to play with over time.

Gryphon does not make recommendations about acousticians. Flemming starts with the "Rule of Thirds." The main Gryphon listening room is not heavily treated with acoustics products.

I have had the exact same stereo system in three different rooms over 18 years. This space sounded the best by far of the three spaces. Not surprisingly it is the biggest of the three spaces. I feel like I have had a lot of experience with dipole speakers, since I have had only dipole speakers since 1988. I am very confident I will be able to achieve sound that I, personally, will be happy with.

I'm reasonably confident that with Bonnie's assistance we can realize at least three-quarters or so of the potential of the 19.5' wide, 24.5' long and 14' high space. To realize the rest of the potential of the room and to maximize sound quality I will look forward to analyses and suggestions from our members here who visit me. (David and Marty and MikeL, among others, have the patience to move the speakers an 1/8" and then reassess carefully the sound. I do not naturally have that kind of patience. Hint, hint

)

There is one line of thought that even suggests that large openings in a listening room can be helpful in releasing excess bass pressure.

caesar · Oct 15, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
The "room" is a dedicated space but not really a dedicated room. One-half of the left side of the space (towards the rear wall) is open to the kitchen, and one-third of the right side of the space (towards the rear wall) is open to the equipment room. Finally, an asymmetrical ceiling soffit steps down above the left rear side of the room.

The walls of the room are what they are (some concrete and some drywall) so I do not conceive of the project as "designing" the room in the sense of building a "room within a room" or ceiling resonators or bass traps or other structural audiophile improvements. I am not do anything structurally to the walls of the room. It is just a matter of fixing drywall and painting the walls. This is in no way a purpose-built room like MikeL or Marty designed.

I had a fully-functioning stereo (also with dipole speakers) in this room with only some carpet and some ASC Tube Traps and Tower Slims, and I was happy with the sound. I think 14 foot ceilings help a lot.

Steve's and Bob Vin's acoustician, Bonnie Schnitta, will be measuring and making recommendations. Acoustically necessary or not I would like a movable drapes arrangement on the side walls and the rear wall to create the contour of a rectangle to delineate visually the four "walls" of a room.

I also still have the ASC Tube Traps and Tower Slims to play with over time.

Gryphon does not make recommendations about acousticians. Flemming starts with the "Rule of Thirds." The main Gryphon listening room is not heavily treated with acoustics products.

I have had the exact same stereo system in three different rooms over 18 years. This space sounded the best by far of the three spaces. Not surprisingly it is the biggest of the three spaces. I feel like I have had a lot of experience with dipole speakers, since I have had only dipole speakers since 1988. I am very confident I will be able to achieve sound that I, personally, will be happy with.

I'm reasonably confident that with Bonnie's assistance we can realize at least three-quarters or so of the potential of the 19.5' wide, 24.5' long and 14' high space. To realize the rest of the potential of the room and to maximize sound quality I will look forward to analyses and suggestions from our members here who visit me.

There is one line of thought that even suggests that large openings in a listening room can be helpful in releasing excess bass pressure.

Ron, best of luck to you...

Not trying to sound like a Debbie Downer, but via experience, one thing I found through the years is if your room is not "excellent", you will never - unfortunately - be able to carve out that acoustical space encoded in the recording, and "get there" or "bring them here" experience ... And I believe that type of acoustical ambiance information is what separates the guy who spent a lot of money vs. a guy who's got a great system...

Good luck with Bonnie, ASC, and measurements - all important and well respected stuff, and may just get you there. In addition, since you are going all out, one thing I would try is to bring in some portable, acrylic SMT wings into your room to see if they make a difference... In effect you can build a portable room inside your room, and take the wings out when you are not seriously listening... And the difference those wings make just could be exactly the magic you are looking for. Just my 2 red copper cents. Again, I hope lady luck is with you.

microstrip · Oct 15, 2017

Ron,

What are the materials used in the Pendragon ribbon? What are its dimensions?

Ron Resnick · Oct 15, 2017

I understand, Caesar.

However, I don't agree that the room acoustic outcome is binary -- "excellent" or "defective." I think it is a fairly linear spectrum from poor on one side to state-of-the-art on the other side. I think each of us does the best we can with our rooms and acoustic treatments and components to get as far towards the SOTA side as we can.

For example, I think the "suspension of disbelief" concept is experienced on a spectrum from "this sounds like I am listening to a table radio in a porcelain-walled bathroom" to "OMG I have been transported to Royal Albert Hall, and I see the Queen!"

Ron Resnick · Oct 15, 2017

microstrip said:
Ron,

What are the materials used in the Pendragon ribbon? What are its dimensions?

i do not want to derail my own thread, Francisco. Please refer to my system thread and please free to continue this there.

caesar · Oct 15, 2017

Ron, I agree completely with what you said above...and I am not suggesting it's binary, as it's based on both science and preference... I was hoping that Gryphon could guide you with specific recommendations... and by what you are asking I have a sense of what you are after. And that is why my suggestion is to use your excellent ASC stuff, let the bass waves that ASC doesn't capture escape out the back, and then build a room within a room with portable SMT products...

It just could be the difference between a system you like to something transcendental that you are looking for by starting this thread - and that a small minority of folks truly have.

Again, the audiophile journey is tough, so best of luck!

Ron Resnick · Oct 15, 2017

Thank you, Caesar! Maybe I will look into SMT products in the future.

caesar · Oct 15, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
Thank you, Caesar! Maybe I will look into SMT products in the future.

No problem... And since you have gotten so far in the journey, I am sure you will be trying a lot of different products... if you do try SMT, please post your impressions.

Fitzcaraldo215 · Oct 15, 2017

I agree that the nature of the recording is key, and much of that tends to relate to musical genre. As a mostly classical listener who goes to many live concerts, "we are there" is the only paradigm that makes any sense to me. And, discretely recorded, hi rez multichannel (Mch) overwhelmingly delivers the best approximation of that to my ears, regardless of whether it is a solo lute or the Berlioz Requiem.

Certainly, classical music can be enjoyed in stereo or in mono, even. But, no stereo I have ever heard, some outrageously expensive, can recreate a reasonable replica to my ears of that sense of being there as well as a properly set up Mch system.

The listening room cannot put back what the stereo recording process has stripped away. Acoustic path lengths in any plausible listening room are simply too short and do not introduce suffient time delay to come even close. Amar Bose tried that with stereo decades ago, and he failed in my opinion. And, much enveloping reflected energy in the hall has lost its directional information in being squeezed down to 2 channels. Far better results are achieved by 5 or more discrete channels. Capturing more information at the live source and reproducing that at home is a quite effective answer.

Floyd Toole agrees and he prefers Mch for his classical music listening. He also finds that the listening room can be effective in reproducing a larger physical space, like the concert hall, even though he is not a big fan of acoustic treatments or of deadening the listening room.

I have not been turned on by attemps to synthesize Mch, preferring discrete recordings natively in Mch. I have thousands of those primarily on SACD. Most are really quite good, and they make up the bulk of my listening.

Discovery of Mch music about 10 years ago was my own biggest and most pleasurable personal audio breakthrough. It literally changed my life and reenergized my music listening far more than any prior system upgrade.

caesar · Oct 17, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
The "room" is a dedicated space but not really a dedicated room. One-half of the left side of the space (towards the rear wall) is open to the kitchen, and one-third of the right side of the space (towards the rear wall) is open to the equipment room. Finally, an asymmetrical ceiling soffit steps down above the left rear side of the room.

The walls of the room are what they are (some concrete and some drywall) so I do not conceive of the project as "designing" the room in the sense of building a "room within a room" or ceiling resonators or bass traps or other structural audiophile improvements. I am not do anything structurally to the walls of the room. It is just a matter of fixing drywall and painting the walls. This is in no way a purpose-built room like MikeL or Marty designed.

I had a fully-functioning stereo (also with dipole speakers) in this room with only some carpet and some ASC Tube Traps and Tower Slims, and I was happy with the sound. I think 14 foot ceilings help a lot.

Steve's and Bob Vin's acoustician, Bonnie Schnitta, will be measuring and making recommendations. Acoustically necessary or not I would like a movable drapes arrangement on the side walls and the rear wall to create the contour of a rectangle to delineate visually the four "walls" of a room.

I also still have the ASC Tube Traps and Tower Slims to play with over time.

Gryphon does not make recommendations about acousticians. Flemming starts with the "Rule of Thirds." The main Gryphon listening room is not heavily treated with acoustics products.

I have had the exact same stereo system in three different rooms over 18 years. This space sounded the best by far of the three spaces. Not surprisingly it is the biggest of the three spaces. I feel like I have had a lot of experience with dipole speakers, since I have had only dipole speakers since 1988. I am very confident I will be able to achieve sound that I, personally, will be happy with.

I'm reasonably confident that with Bonnie's assistance we can realize at least three-quarters or so of the potential of the 19.5' wide, 24.5' long and 14' high space. To realize the rest of the potential of the room and to maximize sound quality I will look forward to analyses and suggestions from our members here who visit me. (David and Marty and MikeL, among others, have the patience to move the speakers an 1/8" and then reassess carefully the sound. I do not naturally have that kind of patience. Hint, hint )

There is one line of thought that even suggests that large openings in a listening room can be helpful in releasing excess bass pressure.

Hi Ron,

This movable drapes arrangement, in the abstract, scares the crap out of me. Curtains all around are likely to severely deaden the room. I don't think our species would have survived if there was "dead space" all around them; it's fair to say we are likely the progeny of the one's who did not inhabit dead spaces.

Yet obviously, depending on the situation, a curtain here or there may help. Before you commit to the curtain, I would put a makeshift SMT diffusive wall behind you and on the sides and compare it to the curtain...

audioguy · Oct 17, 2017

caesar said:
Hi Ron,

This movable drapes arrangement, in the abstract, scares the crap out of me. Curtains all around are likely to severely deaden the room. I don't think our species would have survived if there was "dead space" all around them; it's fair to say we are likely the progeny of the one's who did not inhabit dead spaces.

Yet obviously, depending on the situation, a curtain here or there may help. Before you commit to the curtain, I would put a makeshift SMT diffusive wall behind you and on the sides and compare it to the curtain...

That highlighted phrase is a classic case of "expectation bias". If I might paraphrase Bill Clinton, "It all depends on what 'curtain' means". I've not been in Steve's new room but I know someone who has (Mark Seaton) and he mentioned nothing about "dead" --- and his room is covered in curtains. Curtains can be used to decorate (hide) different kinds of acoustic products if the curtains are acoustically transparent enough to allow the sound through. Or the curtains themselves (e.g. heavily backed) can be used as absorbers.

In my room, every wall surface is covered in GOM fabric but only a small portion of the walls are acoustically treated. Based upon your comments, at first look, my room would be totally dead. I can assure you it is not!!

Rodney Gold · Oct 17, 2017

Ron , what about a solid type solution for the 4 wall visual .. maybe something like wooden folding doors that are stackable...?

caesar · Oct 17, 2017

audioguy said:
That highlighted phrase is a classic case of "expectation bias". If I might paraphrase Bill Clinton, "It all depends on what 'curtain' means". I've not been in Steve's new room but I know someone who has (Mark Seaton) and he mentioned nothing about "dead" --- and his room is covered in curtains. Curtains can be used to decorate (hide) different kinds of acoustic products if the curtains are acoustically transparent enough to allow the sound through. Or the curtains themselves (e.g. heavily backed) can be used as absorbers.

In my room, every wall surface is covered in GOM fabric but only a small portion of the walls are acoustically treated. Based upon your comments, at first look, my room would be totally dead. I can assure you it is not!!

Audioguy, as I mentioned, he should try BOTH the curtain and SMT diffusion wings to determine what works better. Just settling for the curtain kills the spirit of the pursuit for the best.

Mike Lavigne · Oct 17, 2017

with small space acoustics (home audio) ideally you want enough space and live diffusive surfaces. but the 'enough space' part and the right shape of a room is always the rub.

reality is such that typically you are balancing live surfaces with some degrees of absorption. curtains, no matter what they are made of, will change tonality and deaden the sound. so you have to be careful if you want the perfect balance. if you have a bunch of fabric hanging away from the walls in your room, they will be changing tonality.

my room was designed with the right shape, and lots of live diffusive surfaces to begin with. my challenge was to find the right way to control reflective hash. after many years of work, I discovered that cloth applied to the surfaces of my room (not hanging drapes) in the correct places (with months and months of trial and error) allowed for the correct amount of reflective control without changing tonality or removing the live energy. then my built in diffusion can really work to retain energy.

if you have a small room for the size of your speakers, like Steve has, then maybe you need the extreme approach of hanging drapes. but otherwise it's not the way to go.

Ron Resnick · Oct 17, 2017

Rodney Gold said:
Ron , what about a solid type solution for the 4 wall visual .. maybe something like wooden folding doors that are stackable...?

Thank you for the thought, Rodney. I appreciate it.

We plan to have built a glass "wall" of four stacking glass sections between the listening room and the kitchen. Making that wall a fixed wood wall or stacked wood sections would make the kitchen too claustrophobic.

Neutralising sound reflections from this glass wall is one of the purposes of the acoustic curtain. Of course, as long as the dog is locked elsewhere I could also listen to music with three-quarters of this glass wall (3 of the 4 glass panes) stacked and thus open.

Ron Resnick · Oct 17, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
with small space acoustics (home audio) ideally you want enough space and live diffusive surfaces. but the 'enough space' part and the right shape of a room is always the rub.

reality is such that typically you are balancing live surfaces with some degrees of absorption. curtains, no matter what they are made of, will change tonality and deaden the sound. so you have to be careful if you want the perfect balance. if you have a bunch of fabric hanging away from the walls in your room, they will be changing tonality.

my room was designed with the right shape, and lots of live diffusive surfaces to begin with. my challenge was to find the right way to control reflective hash. after many years of work, I discovered that cloth applied to the surfaces of my room (not hanging drapes) in the correct places (with months and months of trial and error) allowed for the correct amount of reflective control without changing tonality or removing the live energy. then my built in diffusion can really work to retain energy.

if you have a small room for the size of your speakers, like Steve has, then maybe you need the extreme approach of hanging drapes. but otherwise it's not the way to go.

Thank you, Mike. I replied on my system thread here: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...d-Room-Treatment-Upgrades&p=474749#post474749

Steve Williams · Oct 17, 2017

Interesting conversation

No one has told me that my room sounds dead in the past two years

My drapes serve a function

My RT 60 is perfect caesar. What's the RT60 of your room

microstrip · Oct 17, 2017

Steve Williams said:
Interesting conversation

No one has told me that my room sounds dead in the past two years

My drapes serve a function

My RT 60 is perfect caesar. What's the RT60 of your room

What matters is how the room sounds. It is known since long that the single figure RT60 isolated from room characteristics is meaningless unless it is completely out of normal range. It is only valid in large spaces, not in our typical listening rooms.

Even REW gives us RT60 versus frequency, that can be used as diagnostic tool when treating a room, not as a measurement of the acoustic quality of the room.

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