"They Are Here" or "We Are There"?

Ron Resnick · Oct 13, 2017

"They are here" or "we are there"? Which one of these illusions should we by seeking to create to permit suspension of disbelief?

Are these incompatible objectives? Do we have to select in advance one or the other of these as an objective for our audio systems?

Does certain equipment achieve one of them and other equipment achieve the other?

Which is harder to achieve?

I want to achieve "we are there."

Rodney Gold · Oct 13, 2017

In my opinion your perspective depends more on mastering than system..on live recordings you are there , on studio recordings and synthesized music..they are here.

miniguy · Oct 13, 2017

It depends on who "they" is/are. If they is a symphony orchestra, "we are there" is the only option.

JackD201 · Oct 13, 2017

I ideally both

For orchestra, big band, rock for me it has gotta be "I am there". I need to feel the energy specific to large venues. For small ensembles, they are here is always very pleasurable as I experience the intimacy. Systems can be set up in such a way as to have both in equal measure. It's a game of millimeters at times regarding positioning and a fully thought out acoustical space but these are all well worth the effort IMO.

Typically having the drum kit in scale with everything else is the most difficult part but I think you'll have no problem getting that eventually with the Pendragons and your 750s

NorthStar · Oct 14, 2017

Yeah, like Jack said, both; it's a travelling experience.

Mike Lavigne · Oct 14, 2017

some random thoughts on this subject based on my experiences.

I've been a mostly solid state guy with a full range system, but have had a number of tube amplifiers in the system which provided alternative views, and my original guiding reference was based on tube OTL's with moderate power in a smallish room.

my preference is for the recording mix to dictate the presentation, and not the gear or room. I want the gear and room to get out of the way of the ultimate perception of that mastering. and being able to both do scale and space, as well as intimacy and 'reach out and touch it' immediacy at the same time is important.

'we are there' relates to low noise and elimination of distortion, linear low frequency extension defining the ambient bed of 'air', as well as extreme degrees of focus and texture.

'they are here' is about holographic three dimensionality, which can be a function of added coloration, or ultra precision in the room acoustics.

'uber' sources certainly contribute to both these characteristics, as well as fully a fully optimized power grid and resonance control.

the conflict becomes using an approach that optimizes one aspect at the expense of the other. and you don't have to choose........at the top of the heap solid state can give you both more easily. but getting true 'they are here' from solid state requires ultra room tuning.

actually small two-ways and tubes, with limited low frequency extension can be the easiest pathway to 'they are here' as they have less variables and can be more simply set-up correctly. as the systems get more capable and full range 'they are here' is harder and harder.....as room/speaker issues will wreak havoc.

and tweaks such as the Tripoint Troy Sig and Elite have taken both 'they are here' and 'you are there' to new levels in my experience. somehow they seem to connect the threads of the music into more believable 'wholes' that break through the sense of reproduction and transport us to these more real situations.

LL21 · Oct 14, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
some random thoughts on this subject based on my experiences.

I've been a mostly solid state guy with a full range system, but have had a number of tube amplifiers in the system which provided alternative views, and my original guiding reference was based on tube OTL's with moderate power in a smallish room.

my preference is for the recording mix to dictate the presentation, and not the gear or room. I want the gear and room to get out of the way of the ultimate perception of that mastering. and being able to both do scale and space, as well as intimacy and 'reach out and touch it' immediacy at the same time is important.

'we are there' relates to low noise and elimination of distortion, linear low frequency extension defining the ambient bed of 'air', as well as extreme degrees of focus and texture.

'they are here' is about holographic three dimensionality, which can be a function of added coloration, or ultra precision in the room acoustics.

'uber' sources certainly contribute to both these characteristics, as well as fully a fully optimized power grid and resonance control.

the conflict becomes using an approach that optimizes one aspect at the expense of the other. and you don't have to choose........at the top of the heap solid state can give you both more easily. but getting true 'they are here' from solid state requires ultra room tuning.

actually small two-ways and tubes, with limited low frequency extension can be the easiest pathway to 'they are here' as they have less variables and can be more simply set-up correctly. as the systems get more capable and full range 'they are here' is harder and harder.....as room/speaker issues will wreak havoc.

and tweaks such as the Tripoint Troy Sig and Elite have taken both 'they are here' and 'you are there' to new levels in my experience. somehow they seem to connect the threads of the music into more believable 'wholes' that break through the sense of reproduction and transport us to these more real situations.

very interesting and agree with a few of the above points in my more limited experience. particularly about the exacting requirements in 'everything' else the illusion is destroyed, as well as the benefits of Tripoint/Entreq.

twitch · Oct 14, 2017

it's all relative to the quality of liquor you're drinking at the time ..........

Mike Lavigne · Oct 14, 2017

twitch said:
it's all relative to the quality of liquor you're drinking at the time ..........

+1.

no doubt level and quality of medication can influence degrees of holographic perception/imagination.

DaveC · Oct 14, 2017

I'd agree it depends on the recording. The system should reproduce whatever spatial information is on the recording, if this results in the sonic portrayal of the recording space then great, you should feel like you are there.

The problem with the "they are here" perspective is it can be either the recording OR a system that isn't performing at a high enough level to reproduce spatial cues. So the result of "they are here" is not nearly as telling as a "you are there" experience. A simple 2-mic recording of a live event should be able to produce a "you are there" experience...

marty · Oct 14, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
+1.

no doubt level and quality of medication can influence degrees of holographic perception/imagination.

+1
It's interesting becasue this is probably a not uncommon practice among many on this forum, yet, to the best of my knowledge, has never been discussed deeply. My guess is that it is because of social stigma which still occurs despite being in an age where legalization is becoming more widespread and common. Do we have the courage to start a new thread on this?

microstrip · Oct 14, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
"They are here" or "we are there"? (...)

None of them for me. Probably "I remember I was there" , "I wish I could have been there"

, "in some aspects I valuate a lot it sounds like they are here or I am there". And yes, I never drink when listening ...

Taking an analytical perspective, are you asking if we usually feel the acoustics of the recording completely overtakes over the acoustics of our room?

PeterA · Oct 14, 2017

microstrip said:
None of them for me. Probably "I remember I was there" , "I wish I could have been there" , "in some aspects I valuate a lot it sounds like they are here or I am there". And yes, I never drink when listening ...

Taking an analytical perspective, are you asking if we usually feel the acoustics of the recording completely overtakes over the acoustics of our room?

Micro, your post best summarizes what I have experienced. For me it all comes down to the information on the recording and what the system and room allow the listener to experience. If the system and room truly disappear, then the information on the recording dictates what is heard. If the embedded information is sufficient it can remind us or conjure memories which are sufficient to transport us to a place which is believable. This depends on our level of experience with different live performances. There is a range of believability, as Al M. often writes, and this range is about instrument tone and the spaces' physical properties.

If our rooms and systems can not disappear completely, they will then influence what we hear and our interpretation of the information that is held in the recording. "They are hear" means that our room acoustic overshadows the ambient information on the recording, and so we simply hear the musician playing in front of us but not the low level information required to place that musician in the original space. This is pretty cool if it is a solo cellist, pianist or singer playing for us in the living room. Non audiophile friends are often aghast at this effect. But I would rather loose my local living room perspective and be transported to that room in which the cellist, pianist or singer performed when the recording was made.

Complicating this is what the intent of the recording engineer was. Is the performer in a studio? I don't want to be transported to a glass booth or unfurnished room somewhere but rather a jazz club, a formal chamber setting or a symphony hall. Very difficult to pull off.

Great topic, Ron.

Mike Lavigne · Oct 14, 2017

these concepts are not that difficult to define.

"you are there" is when in degrees you are present in the space of the event.

"they are here" is when in degrees the performer is in your space.

one reason I love live recordings is that the odds of the 'you are there' thing happening is increased (when the mix and media allows it to be) and typically there is a specific space with lots of ambient information.

and OTOH you get the 'spooky' vocals or small combo jazz or string quartet or solo piano or guitar where it's right there in your room.

and then sometimes you get both effects together.......like this Lp.....

where Rostropovitch's cello is in your room, but the orchestra is in it's hall.....and that hall is cavernous.

dutilleux-and-lutoslawski-cello-concertos-dsc504p-front.jpg

ddk · Oct 14, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
"They are here" or "we are there"? Which one of these illusions should we by seeking to create to permit suspension of disbelief?

Are these incompatible objectives? Do we have to select in advance one or the other of these as an objective for our audio systems?

Does certain equipment achieve one of them and other equipment achieve the other?

Which is harder to achieve?

I want to achieve "we are there."

We are there and they are here are basically the same thing, it's the ability of a system to allow spacial cues present in recordings to be part of the listening experience without coloration, modification or hindrance within the confines of your listening environment as if you're participating in the original event, whatever and wherever it was. This is a flavor and can be achieved through equipment selection and setup then there are people who prefer looking at the event from a distance and don't want to be part of it like watching a movie or a play, this also can be achieved through the same means. It's up to the listener to choose.

david

the sound of Tao · Oct 14, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
these concepts are not that difficult to define.

"you are there" is when in degrees you are present in the space of the event.

"they are here" is when in degrees the performer is in your space.

one reason I love live recordings is that the odds of the 'you are there' thing happening is increased (when the mix and media allows it to be) and typically there is a specific space with lots of ambient information.

and OTOH you get the 'spooky' vocals or small combo jazz or string quartet or solo piano or guitar where it's right there in your room.

and then sometimes you get both effects together.......like this Lp.....

where Rostropovitch's cello is in your room, but the orchestra is in it's hall.....and that hall is cavernous.

View attachment 36492

+1 Mike. Maybe in some ways it then just comes back to whether the visual cues of the room are dominant or instead the audible cues of the performers and the attached recorded sense of space. In a live performance the background noise and the erupting applause of the audience and all varied captured atmosphere can help transport you to the other place... Dave Brubeck's Concord on a Summer Evening and the background singing of the cicadas always transports me there.

Sometimes it's just as easy as turning the lights down to then help shift out of the held perception of the room and allow the sound field to take over our perception and transport us to the venue. Ambient cues are strong anchors to build the perceptual framework and night listening lets the visual boundaries of our listening space disappear and the sound and music to take over. If the cues of the performing space is in the recording then that just levers us to them... if it is more close miked then they are more likely to be brought to us. All good either way I reckon.

cjfrbw · Oct 14, 2017

marty said:
+1
It's interesting becasue this is probably a not uncommon practice among many on this forum, yet, to the best of my knowledge, has never been discussed deeply. My guess is that it is because of social stigma which still occurs despite being in an age where legalization is becoming more widespread and common. Do we have the courage to start a new thread on this?

The first big audio show I went to was the Stereophile one in the early 90's, and the place reeked of marijuana smoke with a lot of obviously stoned guys listening. I think I smelled it once at the RMAF I went to, but never at any other shows.

Plenty of audio expositions where the booze was flowing freely. It makes one wonder how much of the hyperbole at various times comes from the toking and the tanking rather than a sober appreciation of equipment performance. Audio critics never tell you what kind of lubrication they are using when they review. I remember one famous audio critic that was floridly alcoholic, and a guy on AA bragged about sneaking him a fifth in the hospital a short time before he passed away.

At the headphone meets, the guys can hardly wait for cocktail hour before they pull their booze out, and a few of them are pretty red faced to begin with. They sometimes have pictures of the booze they brought.

I smoked dope in the day and listened many years ago in my twenties, but for decades my audio listening has been alcohol and substance free.

Since I have been in Santa Cruz, however, I have run across three older guys at social events (60 plus) who have marijuana cards. One even showed us his collection of THC lollipops, bud, and Sativa and Candida oils, which I guess are supposed to have different effects. He had his larynx removed earlier this year, so between the dope and the ciggies, he paid some price.

audioguy · Oct 14, 2017

twitch said:
it's all relative to the quality of liquor you're drinking at the time ..........

Quality AND quantity.

My preference leans toward "I am there". And that is why I use 11 speakers (and an Auro up mixer and a bunch of subs) to provide a much better sense of space than I have ever heard from just 2 channels.

Furthermore, we had a 3 piece jazz combo in our home a few years ago for my birthday. Neither technology nor speaker/electronics quality nor speaker count will ever allow me to replicate at any level what that sounded like.

morricab · Oct 15, 2017

Great topic. As I said in another thread, a system should be able to do the "you are there"or the "they are here" depending on how the recording was produced. Many modern recordings are very close miked and therefore should put the sound more forward. A lot of small classical ensembles are similar (but not all...especially live where the microphones were not so close). Some studio jazz is this way too although quite a bit of it has been manipulated to create the ambiance of a small club or concert hall.

That said, I have found that more systems have problems with putting the musicians in the room with you as a sort of "virtual reality". Most create a more distant picture all of the time. B&W specifically engineered their speakers with a bit of a dip (Gundry dip) in the presence region that did a couple of things: 1) it gave a more distant perspective that combats to some extent the tendency of modern pop music recordings to be hot and in the face...also creates a sense of greater spaciousness than is strictly on the recording. 2) Takes the edge off the hotter recordings.

I think a lot of us want immediacy without sacrificing the ability to resolve deeply into the recordings...not a small task it seems. I have found all too many systems that do the you are there pretty well but fail on immediacy and warmth one gets when sitting close to instruments and so come out sounding a bit cold and sterile. The opposite problem also occurs where a system is rich and full and this sounds great with simple blues or girl with a guitar but a more complex recording never quite transistions to the you are there convincingly due to lack of low level resolution. No system is perfect and therefore all systems will do one of these two perspectives preferentially regardless of the recording but the best ones will minimize inherent traits to allow the recording to dictate the perspective.

Ron Resnick · Oct 15, 2017

microstrip said:
. . .

Taking an analytical perspective, are you asking if we usually feel the acoustics of the recording completely overtakes over the acoustics of our room?

Yes, I think this is a good way to re-state the original question.

(I think there have been a lot of interesting and thoughtful replies here!

)

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