Oil giant Shell bets on electric cars

Empirical Audio

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I'm all for using gov't policy to drive positive change but it seems like this rarely works out... in the case of Tesla I think the subsidies were not the right thing to do because the cars aren't much better vs a smaller, fuel-efficient gas car, and could be worse depending on how they are recharged.

Actually, a Tesla model S gets 4-5 times the equivalent mileage of a similar sized gas guzzler with lower acceleration than the Tesla of course. I don't have any data on the Model 3 yet, but it is probably similar.

And luckily for the US, our president's beliefs and behavior aren't law and many local gov'ts are committed to adhering to the Paris agreements. If all 50 states recognize it and the Fed gov't doesn't.. well it doesn't really matter anymore what he thinks or does.

It still matters unfortunately.

So far the US as well as the entire world hasn't been moving fast enough on both climate change/energy issues

Do you know what is happening in Norway, Denmark, Sweden and Holland? Norway has already 30% electric cars on the roads. Some of these countries are 80% renewable powered already. Many countries outlawing the sale os gas vehicles from 2030-2050.

as well as agriculture. Both are inter-related and inseparable, and ag issues are just as bad for us and the planet. In ag, we're moving in exactly the WRONG direction with gmo/roundup-ready crops, the use of powerful and persistent pesticides that kill all sorts of things we probably don't want to kill, like honeybees, but they are just the most noticeable insect out of hundreds or thousands of species we're killing. It's the combination of poor ag and poor energy practices that are going to cause problems.

IT turns out that the consumer is forcing a lot of changes in the US. Some of the largest chicken farms have already eliminated antibiotics. There are more and more organic foods available, and more local crops in the stores. Free-range chicken eggs and free-range chicken is easier to find and affordable.

The climate and ag issues are also going to hit feedback loops that are going to accelerate the rate of change of undesirable effects and it's all going to be much worse than we think right now. I've always thought, and still do, that the solution is going to have to be technology based, i.e. we are going to have to figure out how to manipulate the planet's climate and go back to organic, local agriculture. In many ways it IS too late to correct the damage we've done just by reducing the production of greenhouse gasses and adapting renewable energy tech. We're going to have to come up with tech to correct for these problems directly as well as adapting more sustainable methods of producing energy and food.

I don't believe that man can fix mother nature. We cannot even do hatchery fish without screwing up the natural stocks. Many must make drastic changes before it is too late. I don't believe we are at the inflexion point of mans demise yet, but things will get a LOT worse before they get better.

An international Climate Change workgroup did a study last year to determine what actions would slow things so that they do not get a lot worse. The result was that the entire planet would need to cut in half their CO2 emissions every decade for 10 decades.

How likely is that?

Steve N.
 

twitch

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You seem smart but your enthusiasm for and economic buy-in of a Tesla vehicle is clouding your judgement. You're completely ignoring the downsides, which are substantial.

Dave, given that GM has weighed in on the 'electric front' , tell us, what are some of the major 'downsides' that they should / will avoid
 

Empirical Audio

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After that statement I won't bother to refute your ignorant and biased comments. If you think a car that weighs more results in improved handling you're as delusional as all the Tesla owners who think their car is "saving the planet". I'm also not sure hydroelectric power can really be lumped in with renewables, it has some pretty major trade-offs. Might as well call nuclear renewable too if you think hydro is a great idea.

You seem smart but your enthusiasm for and economic buy-in of a Tesla vehicle is clouding your judgement. You're completely ignoring the downsides, which are substantial.

Just test drive one and you will see.
Steve N.
 

Empirical Audio

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Dave, given that GM has weighed in on the 'electric front' , tell us, what are some of the major 'downsides' that they should / will avoid

Many more than just GM:

BMW, Mercedes, Ford, Nissan, Fiat, Kia, Mitsubishi, Volkswagen, Toyota, Hyundai

Steve N.
 

DaveC

Industry Expert
Nov 16, 2014
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Just test drive one and you will see.
Steve N.

I don't need to test drive a Tesla to know that increasing the weight of a car is detrimental to it's handling. This is cars 101, I also studied automotive engineering...

And most everything else you say here is wrong too, a Tesla S getting 4-5x "equivalent mileage" and expecting a 20 yr battery life is a evidence you've drunk Elon's kool aid.

When I worked for Vestas I spent a good amount of my time in Denmark and I have sisters who live in Germany, I'm well aware of what their sources of energy are and how it's nearly impossible for most regions on Earth to duplicate their use of wind power. Your assertioon that any country in N Europe is 80% powered by renewable energy needs proof. Last I saw, and it's been a few years but this doesn't change that fast, is about 1/3rd of DK and N Germany's energy is from renewables.

In concept I totally agree with most of what you're saying... but you're way far off on a lot of specifics and have bought into a lot of false information.
 

NorthStar

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After that statement I won't bother to refute your ignorant and biased comments. If you think a car that weighs more results in improved handling you're as delusional as all the Tesla owners who think their car is "saving the planet". I'm also not sure hydroelectric power can really be lumped in with renewables, it has some pretty major trade-offs. Might as well call nuclear renewable too if you think hydro is a great idea.

You seem smart but your enthusiasm for and economic buy-in of a Tesla vehicle is clouding your judgement. You're completely ignoring the downsides, which are substantial.

I don't know why you say that Dave, because gasoline cars are more fuel efficient when they weigh less; 30% of the new cars don't have a spare tire to meet weightless advantage.

But! For electric cars...?

* I don't know the statistics in accidents and car related deaths between heavier and lighter cars, but I would assume that a heavier car offers more human protection? I just don't know; today some light cars have six or eight airbags.

Reliability number one car manufacturer, according to Consumer Reports, is Toyota. Then Lexus.

** You sound tough, without any valid reason to. Steve N. is a very nice guy, and we are discussing among best friends.
Plus, it's not about Steve, it's about the post content. And in discussing the post content we have the power to work and improve together, advance in force.

*** It's true that high performance racing cars are light...Porsche, Mercedes, McLaren, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bugatti, ...
 

NorthStar

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https://www.quora.com/How-much-woul...-opposed-to-a-comparable-gasoline-powered-car
•• https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/5y236f/why_are_electric_car_heavier/
••• Funny: http://www.businessinsider.com/why-morgan-stanley-wrong-about-electric-cars-2017-5

Bonus:

* https://www.quora.com/Is-a-lighter-...re-likely-to-have-better-traction-in-the-rain
** http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f3/why-lighter-car-considered-better-96121/
*** http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/in-your-opinion-are-lighter-cars-or-heavier-cars-better.90444903/

"All the best handling cars are going to be as light as possible. Of course there are going to be lightweight cars that DON'T handle well (Yugo's are very lightweight, as is the Ford Pinto...) But overall if you're building a car that you want to handle well, you should be trying to make it as light as possible.

Less weight to move around means the engine will be able to push the car faster, and less weight when cornering means less centrifugal force pulling you outwards (off the road), and you'll hold the line better.

The best races for heavy cars (think of your old classic muscle cars) are straight line races, like at the drag strip. You can easily add in tons of horsepower to get the car moving quickly.... but no amount of modification will EVER be able to make a 4000 pound car corner as well as a 2000 pound car.

As for the value of ferraris.... look up their website. They're generally hundreds of thousands of dollars though. It's the kind of question where "if you have to ask, you can't afford it". They're priced based on what they're worth as performance machine (you could buy a $60 corvette, and almost as fast a car as you would from a $200K ferrari)... but rather, priced on their worth as a status symbol. People don't buy ferrari's to drive fast, they buy ferrari's to be seen in a ferrari."

___

If you want fast acceleration, Tesla provides that, in spades.
If you hit a post or a rail with a Tesla, they can burn nasty for a long time. ...Like recently here; watch how many firemen were required:
https://jalopnik.com/watch-volunteer-firefighters-in-austria-extinguish-a-fi-1819665352

Good thing that the young 19-year old woman driver got out quick of it, of her Tesla Model S car.
 

NorthStar

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Thx Mike for that; as a car dealer/salesman yourself for many many years, I highly regard your experience, knowledge and expertise in keeping up from past to future, passing by through today.

We all had many vehicles in our driving lifetime, heavy cars (my first one was a 1955 Sedan, Dodge), /// I had a an International 1973 pick-up truck with heavy duty dual set of springs in the rear, dual tanks, heavy duty steel front and rear bumper, brief a heavy truck, and I slided off the road in winter slush condition, in a 90° curve...I hit a tree @ approximately 50 miles per hour, straight front. I had two spare tires, one on the front bumper and the other under the truck's rear. I hit my chin on the steering wheel, that's all. No airbag. The truck was damaged of course. But Bob was just fine.

I had a light MGB convertible 1975 roadster, SE. And driving in the heavy rain, no roof, and wet roads, @ 90 miles per hour I was lifting up the road, the four wheels up in the air, on sharp curves. The car was handling real well for its light weight.

And I had a bunch more, more on the heavy side because I drove more big 4x4 heavy trucks than cars, in my line of work.
Cars were mainly for pleasure and shopping and cruising and countryside searching and road testing.

Anywho, the gasoline cars are slowly but surely being replaced by hybrids and electric cars.
It can only get better as future improvements in weight, handling, performance, mileage, emissions, battery weight and endurance, reliability, safety, ...all that driving jazz are made.

It's in the big cities that CO² is killing us all, mainly.

* Oups, you deleted your post. I respect that too.
 
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twitch

Well-Known Member
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I don't need to test drive a Tesla to know that increasing the weight of a car is detrimental to it's handling. This is cars 101, I also studied automotive engineering...

all well and good Dave but .............lets compare the weight of a new Camaro ZL1/1LE to that of a '69 Z28, a weight increase of around 20-25%. With that I trust you know where the handling (track times) stand on the new Camaro ! I doubt very much when you studied automotive engineering there was not the suspension / tire technology of today !

Granted, I'd love to see the Camaro go on a diet as well, but the numbers don't lie !
 

Empirical Audio

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It's in the big cities that CO² is killing us all, mainly.

Actually, its the N02 that is killing us in the cities, as well as the sulfur emissions and diesel particulates. Diesels are the worst polluters and the exhaust until it settles, is carcinogenic. Then you have the N02. I feel for those that have to work outside airport terminals. There are 70 cities in Germany now that have dangerous levels of N02, so the government is looking at banning diesels. They had a huge push to make every car diesel a decade ago and they are realizing now that it was a big mistake.

Steve N.
 

Empirical Audio

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https://jalopnik.com/watch-volunteer-firefighters-in-austria-extinguish-a-fi-1819665352[/url]

Good thing that the young 19-year old woman driver got out quick of it, of her Tesla Model S car.

It's pretty rare to have a death in a Tesla Model S, unlike so many gas vehicles. Most of them were due to racing and excessive speed.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

NorthStar

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Actually, its the N02 that is killing us in the cities, as well as the sulfur emissions and diesel particulates. Diesels are the worst polluters and the exhaust until it settles, is carcinogenic. Then you have the N02. I feel for those that have to work outside airport terminals. There are 70 cities in Germany now that have dangerous levels of N02, so the government is looking at banning diesels. They had a huge push to make every car diesel a decade ago and they are realizing now that it was a big mistake.

Steve N.

Thx Steve, I am learning and discovering.

http://theconversation.com/meet-n2o-the-greenhouse-gas-300-times-worse-than-co2-35204
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/...-produce-more-co2-per-capita-than-small-ones/
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...e-than-petrol-for-co2-emissions-report-claims

* https://priuschat.com/threads/co2-vs-nox-which-is-worse.23227/

? https://sites.google.com/site/gasisnotcleanenergy/health-impacts-of-nox
 

NorthStar

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It's pretty rare to have a death in a Tesla Model S, unlike so many gas vehicles. Most of them were due to racing and excessive speed.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

I only posted the link because it is the most recent Tesla accident, from Austria; with the video showing how hard it is to extinguish that fire with 35 firemen and lots of water. ...That's all, just yesterday, October 18 ...And yes, high speed was a factor.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/motors/472...erno-that-took-35-firefighters-to-extinguish/
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Sure pm me for whatever u need,
 

NorthStar

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Shades of digital! Natural selection is dead! Take or leave it.

Sure pm me for whatever u need,

I admit; I don't fully get it. And I'm a very poor mind hunter*. ...From the new Netflix series. :b ;-)
What does it mean?

- I hardly use PM to communicate, unless absolutely necessary. Besides, there's nothing private about PM. Lol
In this case here no sweat, I admit my ignorance publicly. I have no shame.

You mean electric cars are the "digital" age, and natural fossil fuel is going the way of the dodo, towards extinction.
And that's the way it is; take it or leave it.

Right?
___

* I don't know if I can watch some FBI psychologic stuff. In Las Vegas the FBI guys have their heads in the desert's holes, and there is a high ranking guy right now who believes that they (FBI) are conspiring against him. :b ...Fear itself will get to him till he drops out for good.
 

NorthStar

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Shades of digital! Natural selection is dead! Take or leave it.

Greg, can you update me, please?

Sure pm me for whatever u need,


Greg made a comment, first quote above.
I replied by asking him what it meant @ the time, second quote.
He replied back by simply saying; sure, I can PM him.

I think he meant that electric cars represent the new digital era, and that old gas cars are like the analog era, the natural way of life.
We have a choice between the natural old way we all love and grew up with and which still is improving today plus with a new life interest...turntables and albums,
and the new digital music servers with hi-res audio files that we can store and download digitally in our PCs, etc.,...Tidal, MQA, HDCD, SACD, Blu-ray Audio, ... and new DACs (both expensive ones and affordable ones), ...all that digital jazz.

When I first bought my first TT I think paid $40 for it back then...a long long time ago.
When I first bought my first analog car, a 1955 Sedan model with a flat 6 in line and manual transmission, I paid $500 for it, a long time ago.

My last purchases on audio sources and driving vehicles, just very recently, were all digital, except for the transport mechanism and the wheels and the engine and gasoline.
The digital music source was less than $100,000 and more than $500.
The gasoline car was less than $1,000,000 and more than $10,000.

I had the choice to buy an analog turntable for roughly the same price as my digital source, and same for an electric car...second hand.
The choices I made in life are mine, the reasons are mine. Whatever happens between is everyone's right to their opinion.

That's it Dave, really. Greg was simply friendly by offering his private help for my first original ignorance. That's the way I see it, Greg can correct any misconception I might have, he is the most welcome. I trust his expertise because he is a professional.

Tesla electric cars are quite advanced when it comes to self-driving, with digital chips and memory and cameras and GPS, all that digital stuff.
Drones are also digitally remote controlled, but without us being in them.
Today we don't need cars for shopping and other uses that we are slaved of; we can do online and we contribute to a greener planet.
A car is nice to see different views of the countryside and visiting friends and family.
A car is like almost what a gun is to a soldier. We grew up with its dependency. If we can free up ourselves from that dependency just imagine what can the world become. I say this in the positive sense of the sentence. Of course we don't go to war without our gun, or with just a Swiss pocket scout knife.
We can Skype or Facetime our families and friends, but we can't hugh them physically and give them kisses on both cheeks.

We are advancing towards AI who in the future will take over for the good of humanity.
Only robots will go to war, saving millions lives, and no more human mistakes and corruption and financial greed.
We'll be more free with more free time to live.

I could write more than just one book about it, but I won't.
 
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