A lab table like the ones I use or the sexy version Jarek is designing are great alternatives.
david
Testing and embracing Stacore
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A lab table like the ones I use or the sexy version Jarek is designing are great alternatives.
david
Hi Jarek,
Out of curiosity, do you happen to know the vertical and horizontal resonance frequencies of your table? I'm interested in how far you got those down with your massive weight / air spring construction, only if you are willing to share of course! I am fooling around with metal springs and I find it quite challenging to get a really low resonance point in combination with fast settling times / low ringing.
Ron, yes I agree with you. The room is the passport to a level of sound that I couldn’t have envisaged. No hyperbole here. And it does proud any improvement I bring in that enhances things further, whether that be component upgrades (211 tubes changes to my NATs, and soon to test this further on psu changes to tt motor and Straingauge, and modded magnetic suspension to platter and feet), or tweaks of which you’re all too familiar.
I totally get the arguments against spending on tweaks other than room and maybe dedicated electrical spurs.
But the path I went on in my old poor sounding room, to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear, made a significant difference, and going further with these here has been even more dramatic.
Since my old room was so poor acoustically, esp pre-tweaks, an AF tt would have been wasted.
It would sound a whole lot better here even without tweaks.
But would also with my current direction as proved by my digital enhancing no end.
So, maybe in a parallel dimension had I this room first, I would have put all the funds from cable, grounding, balanced power and isolation platforms into something like an AF1 or Kronos.
But that’s not the way it happened, and tbh I have no regrets because my spend as it happened in this world has given me added value on the components I’ve actually chosen.
I totally get the arguments against spending on tweaks other than room and maybe dedicated electrical spurs.
But the path I went on in my old poor sounding room, to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear, made a significant difference, and going further with these here has been even more dramatic.
Since my old room was so poor acoustically, esp pre-tweaks, an AF tt would have been wasted.
It would sound a whole lot better here even without tweaks.
But would also with my current direction as proved by my digital enhancing no end.
So, maybe in a parallel dimension had I this room first, I would have put all the funds from cable, grounding, balanced power and isolation platforms into something like an AF1 or Kronos.
But that’s not the way it happened, and tbh I have no regrets because my spend as it happened in this world has given me added value on the components I’ve actually chosen.
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Hi,
It starts at around 4.5Hz unloaded going down to about 2.5Hz full load.
Check your PM
Cheers,
It starts at around 4.5Hz unloaded going down to about 2.5Hz full load.
Check your PM
Cheers,
Good Morning David. Here is the problem as I see it. One must determine the BEST WAY to support the component being considered. In the case of your American Sound turntable, that is not only how to hold up a 200+Kg turntable. It is also how to not create a condition that may be detrimental to the turntable's performance. And at best, the problem is to both support the turntable and perhaps improve its performance. One could build a wooden rack strong enough to support your turntable. He could then add all sorts of materials between the top shelf and the turntable to perhaps alter the sound. But the real problem, it seems to me, is to try to figure out the best possible way to support the turntable.
The AS2000 is heavy and creates a certain amount of internal vibrations. I don't know the design at all, but I imagine the supporting surface sees fewer vibrations coming from the AS2000 than it would from some other less stable, less massive, turntable designs. The simple fact that turntables have gross movement and DACs or microscopes do not, means that perhaps these various items would best be served by different types of supports. MikeL is now trying a modified Herzan that outperforms the lab grade device.
I'm sorry that you don't seem to find these types of discussions useful. Verbal masterbation is pretty funny, but I think those participating are trying to learn something. I enjoy reading and participating in these types of threads. I may not be able to contribute anything useful, but I try to ask pertinent questions which may lead to further discussions and perhaps some answers. I value the contributions and participation of Jarek and others who are in the industry and who have much experience and are willing to share some ideas. It makes for a richer conversation.
It is fascinating to me that you describe two radically different support solutions to your turntable as what makes sense to one owner and that the other enjoys the technology of a much more complicated solution and wants to play with it. Of course, they can do what they want, especially if the problem is simply to hold up your turntable. Any strong stand will do that. But if the goal is to place the turntable on the best possible support, causing the least harm to the sound, and perhaps even creating a condition to improve the sound, then, respectfully, I think the problem is a bit more complex.
Hi Peter,
The most difficult part of the equation for 99.9% of the audiophiles I come across is defining that "BEST", audiophiles for the most part are clueless! Sounds simple but just in the limited context of your sample can you clearly define what the "BEST" you're after is? If not, "BEST" is merely a word and the goalless venture becomes change for change's sake until you're forced or decide to stop. You might pickup & learn things along the way but what do you do with it before knowing what it is that you want? This the reason for so many going round & round & round in the dark.
Who's going to know exactly how much of what type of vibration the AS or SME is creating and which part and quantity you want to keep or eliminate and how? How does vibration or lack of get you the sound that you want? Mike L. is describing the differences he's hearing in his system between Herzan A vs Herzan B with some condiments, he is not theorizing and fantasizing about random existent or non-existent vibrations. The same platform can serve both DACs and tts, it all depends.
I wouldn't be here if I didn't enjoy the discussions or bother to reply. Verbal masterbation comment wasn't directed at anyone I wanted to bring focus to the thread, Jarek's and others time is valuable we shouldn't waste it aimlessly.
"Any strong stand will do that." Fundamentally, that's the long & short of it Peter. What complex problem are you referring to because I don't see any, place this tt (and I'm sure many others too) on your strong dining table and you'll still get a fantastic sound if the motor turns to spin the platter; to hell with gear that requires 5 engineers and thousands of dollars of tweaks and accessories to sound acceptable! Once you've meet the fundamental setup criteria the rest is gravy, sugar or mould! I have a very clear defined understanding of my "Best" and from experience I know that the most direct and economical path to my goal is 4 steel legs of a certain thickness solidly braced together & a steel slab of a certain dimension & mass dropped on top. It's nothing more or less than a basic strong stand, it's what the gentlemen are getting. Both tables have a similar steel structure supporting a steel plate, in Chris's case he decided to add a spring box to see what happens, the turntable will still work just the same on both tables. We'll see if he likes the spring box this time around or not, it can't be any simpler than this.
david
The most difficult part of the equation for 99.9% of the audiophiles I come across is defining that "BEST", audiophiles for the most part are clueless! Sounds simple but just in the limited context of your sample can you clearly define what the "BEST" you're after is? If not, "BEST" is merely a word and the goalless venture becomes change for change's sake until you're forced or decide to stop. You might pickup & learn things along the way but what do you do with it before knowing what it is that you want? This the reason for so many going round & round & round in the dark.
Who's going to know exactly how much of what type of vibration the AS or SME is creating and which part and quantity you want to keep or eliminate and how? How does vibration or lack of get you the sound that you want? Mike L. is describing the differences he's hearing in his system between Herzan A vs Herzan B with some condiments, he is not theorizing and fantasizing about random existent or non-existent vibrations. The same platform can serve both DACs and tts, it all depends.
I wouldn't be here if I didn't enjoy the discussions or bother to reply. Verbal masterbation comment wasn't directed at anyone I wanted to bring focus to the thread, Jarek's and others time is valuable we shouldn't waste it aimlessly.
"Any strong stand will do that." Fundamentally, that's the long & short of it Peter. What complex problem are you referring to because I don't see any, place this tt (and I'm sure many others too) on your strong dining table and you'll still get a fantastic sound if the motor turns to spin the platter; to hell with gear that requires 5 engineers and thousands of dollars of tweaks and accessories to sound acceptable! Once you've meet the fundamental setup criteria the rest is gravy, sugar or mould! I have a very clear defined understanding of my "Best" and from experience I know that the most direct and economical path to my goal is 4 steel legs of a certain thickness solidly braced together & a steel slab of a certain dimension & mass dropped on top. It's nothing more or less than a basic strong stand, it's what the gentlemen are getting. Both tables have a similar steel structure supporting a steel plate, in Chris's case he decided to add a spring box to see what happens, the turntable will still work just the same on both tables. We'll see if he likes the spring box this time around or not, it can't be any simpler than this.
david
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Like you David, I care about results. For me, "BEST" means the result that sounds the most natural in my system and reminds me the most of the sounds I hear from live instruments and voices. Discussing potential solutions beforehand might hopefully reduce the time needed for experimentation. That is all. Sure there is plenty of speculation, but that and discussions with others who may know more than I do, leads to better solutions and less time experimenting, or at least that is the goal and what I am trying to do.
It would be fascinating to directly compare Tango's and Christian's two supports under the same turntable and in the same system and room, don't you think? Would not something be learned? I don't think this comparison will ever happen, but I'm pretty sure that Ron would benefit from listening to and comparing those results so that he could make his decision with a bit more confidence before ordering one table or the other.
Placing the AS2000 on a strong dining room table may surely provide a fantastic sound, but I think MikeL, Christian and Tango are already getting that with their NVS, AF1s, etc. They want more, a lot more, and a dining room table with that goal just won't cut it. A strong steel table will suffice, and so will the Herzan stand. They will surely provide a better support than a strong dining room table. And perhaps the quest for the best stand for their needs will end there. Or it will not.
It would be fascinating to directly compare Tango's and Christian's two supports under the same turntable and in the same system and room, don't you think? Would not something be learned? I don't think this comparison will ever happen, but I'm pretty sure that Ron would benefit from listening to and comparing those results so that he could make his decision with a bit more confidence before ordering one table or the other.
Placing the AS2000 on a strong dining room table may surely provide a fantastic sound, but I think MikeL, Christian and Tango are already getting that with their NVS, AF1s, etc. They want more, a lot more, and a dining room table with that goal just won't cut it. A strong steel table will suffice, and so will the Herzan stand. They will surely provide a better support than a strong dining room table. And perhaps the quest for the best stand for their needs will end there. Or it will not.
Peter, it’s tricky enough setting up a directly equivalent belt drive v DD trial, it’s nigh on impossible to even think one could a/b AS2000 on heavy duty inert stand v Stacore custom v Herzan. What we’ll hear from the Musketeers is how great their respective setups sound. This is just a mute point. I’m very glad I compared and contrasted active v passive in my 3 way trial, so I’m certain what works in my situation. Trying to extrapolate beyond all this seems pointless.
This hobby is so personal that I don't really want to set goals for anyone or define anyone's best specially Chris, Mike's or Tango's, I can only talk about my own preferences and I know that my Best isn't always everyone's taste. I love the sound of Denon mini systems+EAR 845 phono+Garrard 401/SME 3012-R+nearly any one of a dozen or more vintage speakers I own wired up with radioshack cables in a basic target rack. This relatively modest system defines what I call Best sound for me and for the past couple of decades I haven't given a rat's a$$ for what I see as minor or unimportant enhancements that someone else may really care about. The next personally meaningful step up from the Denon+EAR is the Lamm and EMT 927/AS from the 401, the AF1 while quantitatively many times superior to the Garrard doesn't bring me any extra listening satisfaction over the 401 to get excited about. So the answer to your questions,"It would be fascinating to directly compare Tango's and Christian's two supports under the same turntable and in the same system and room, don't you think? Would not something be learned?" is no and no unless the Herzan is a complete fail.
david
Are you not extrapolating about the AS2000 based on a few reports? It certainly seems to be built well and is a no nonsense design that purports to be a superb solution. Someone ordered one without hearing it first based on reports. All of that is fine, but extrapolation is what we do around here, as well as report on direct experiences. I enjoyed reading about your 3 way trial, David's turntable comparisons, and MikeL's many upgrades.
No, I have no expectation that such direct comparisons between different massive stands under a massive turntable will ever be done. That is fine too. I'm just daydreaming about what we might learn, nothing more.
I’m curious as to Dave’s skepticism. He’s pretty much stayed in the camp that is averse to any witchcraft and mumbo jumbo on all things stands, cables, power cords, grounding etc. Whereas I’ve dived the other way.
I cannot deny that in my recent experience the room is absolutely critical, and other tweaks are slave to it. But I also look at things that the room has allowed all these other tweaks to excel.
Optimal room only and top top tt, versus optimal room and multiple tweaks to max out lesser tt, for approximately the same financial outlay, who knows which really makes best sense.
For me this extra level of optimisation has got my digital performing way beyond what I could reasonably have hoped for, and hence I remain confident I’m glad I’ve optimised the way I have.
But with Dave’s well documented refusal to tweak out, is it any surprise he’s skeptical now of anything other than a heroically strong inert stand for AS?
I cannot deny that in my recent experience the room is absolutely critical, and other tweaks are slave to it. But I also look at things that the room has allowed all these other tweaks to excel.
Optimal room only and top top tt, versus optimal room and multiple tweaks to max out lesser tt, for approximately the same financial outlay, who knows which really makes best sense.
For me this extra level of optimisation has got my digital performing way beyond what I could reasonably have hoped for, and hence I remain confident I’m glad I’ve optimised the way I have.
But with Dave’s well documented refusal to tweak out, is it any surprise he’s skeptical now of anything other than a heroically strong inert stand for AS?
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It is true comparing expensive racks in the same system is daydreaming. Expensive racks that are said to designed to manage vibration like CMS, HRS, SRA, etc., imo, are a oneshot, buy, set and forget. You will be so lucky to get to demo a rack in your own system. You buy, setup and accept whatever sonic that these racks bring about. People who own them likely not try another different rack unless they have more equipments and need a new rack to support those new equipments.
Another real world situation is the fact that it's really a bitch to move all your equipments and keep doing new setup. I moved my system twice so I know well. Not only because they are heavy and tiresome and you can worsen your slip disc bad back, but aslo if you are into tts you know well that once you get to the climax point of tt setup already, you dont want to move it even a tiny bit. Even two inches move to the left of my phono cable can get the public radio signal into my system. So a/b ing a rack? Not a chance. Only in dream. At least for me.
This hobby is really a personal thing like David said. Everyone has his/her own dance. I like the simplistic approach of David on rack and vibration mgt for tt because my experience happens to be consistent with what he thinks. Another important point for me is that I dont want to introduce more variable to the already delicate setup process of tt. The tt, the arm, cart are already a lot of worries for me because I dont have super setup skills like David and Peter. So, If the sound from my tt setup doesnt sound right or may be a bit off, I dont want the rack to add into my check list of things to fine tune.
IMO, Vibration management is already in the equation when designing a tt. So, Excellent tt on a very strong and stable rack should already take care of vibration by itself. Any left over vibe should result only insignificant effect.
Kind regards,
Tang
Another real world situation is the fact that it's really a bitch to move all your equipments and keep doing new setup. I moved my system twice so I know well. Not only because they are heavy and tiresome and you can worsen your slip disc bad back, but aslo if you are into tts you know well that once you get to the climax point of tt setup already, you dont want to move it even a tiny bit. Even two inches move to the left of my phono cable can get the public radio signal into my system. So a/b ing a rack? Not a chance. Only in dream. At least for me.
This hobby is really a personal thing like David said. Everyone has his/her own dance. I like the simplistic approach of David on rack and vibration mgt for tt because my experience happens to be consistent with what he thinks. Another important point for me is that I dont want to introduce more variable to the already delicate setup process of tt. The tt, the arm, cart are already a lot of worries for me because I dont have super setup skills like David and Peter. So, If the sound from my tt setup doesnt sound right or may be a bit off, I dont want the rack to add into my check list of things to fine tune.
IMO, Vibration management is already in the equation when designing a tt. So, Excellent tt on a very strong and stable rack should already take care of vibration by itself. Any left over vibe should result only insignificant effect.
Kind regards,
Tang
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Wish me luck Tang.
In two weeks, the tt I’ve been without for two years gets upgraded w two new psus, new quality pwr cords, audiophile fuses, newly terminated tonearm wire, new tonearm mount, balanced transformer to tonearm air pump, Symposium isolation under tt motor pod, and the whole lot installed on a Stacore Adv platform.
To say I’m a little anxious is an understatement.
In two weeks, the tt I’ve been without for two years gets upgraded w two new psus, new quality pwr cords, audiophile fuses, newly terminated tonearm wire, new tonearm mount, balanced transformer to tonearm air pump, Symposium isolation under tt motor pod, and the whole lot installed on a Stacore Adv platform.
To say I’m a little anxious is an understatement.
No luck needed for you Marc. I am sure you will find way to optimize and eventually get “ the sound.”
I am also excited to try the Stacore Adv platform for my phono.
Kind regards,
Tang
Tang, I am confident, but this is tinged with natural worry since so many things have changed in my analog rig, the Stacore Adv by far being the most radical update.
And critically digital has come of age in my system, and will be a tough comparison for lp playback.
And critically digital has come of age in my system, and will be a tough comparison for lp playback.
No, it is not likely that racks are ever directly compared before one makes a purchase decision. So, people go with their gut based on what others tell them, what looks good, and what they have read. That is fine, because on some level, who really cares? Why bother with all of the hassle?
However, if one is naturally curious, and willing to experiment or do some research because he is chasing the ultimate performance within certain parameters, then some audiophiles go to extremes. That is what MikeL is all about. Someone must have asked himself if the Herzan platform could be improved. And so it has been. Magico had the curiosity to ask if they could design a better support structure for their flagship speaker. Now they sell special MPod footers for over $10K, about the cost of one of these turntable stands, and those who have heard them under the MPro speaker, say they are essential for top performance. Inserting them, and then wanting to adjust speaker position, is nothing but a hassle. Some insane vinyl guys even adjust VTA for different records. Talk about hassle. For these kinds of folks, the final results are worth the effort. And they only reach conclusions by doing direct comparisons, because as David correctly pointed out, science does not always lead to the presumed result in audio.
For others, it is simply not worth it. That is fine too. Audio is a personal pursuit. Each of us takes it as far as he is willing for any number of reasons. We follow different paths, reach different conclusions and achieve various outcomes. Imagine if the designer of the original American Sound turntable has thought to himself, "The current top Micro Seiki is the ultimate, and it is good enough". There would be no American Sound turntable. And then years later, David must have asked further questions which led to a new design of the controller and we have been reading about what followed.
Pursuing ultimate sound quality is only one aspect of the hobby. Others are interested in collecting, traveling to hear other systems, getting the latest gear, listening to old favorites with friends, restoring vintage gear. And as I just learned, others are trying to figure it all out or not. I read this in a recent post:
"The most difficult part of the equation for 99.9% of the audiophiles I come across is defining that "BEST", audiophiles for the most part are clueless!"
Of course You can go extreme but how do you know if your extreme brings about the ultimate without comparing with the not-extreme approach? I don’t know if Mike and Christian prepare or plan to make any test with a simple passive solid rack without springs. This isn’t as easy as with the NVS on and off Herzan.
Practicality has its role here. So it really ends at one’s belief not necessary one’s drive for the ultimate in this case.
Kind regards,
Tang
Owners of the AS2000 can make a few recordings in DXD or DSD128 and share them with WBF members. Then we will be able to listen in our systems it there is a fundamental difference in the recordings that exceeds the variation of tonearm, cartridge or phono unit.
No, one does not always know Tango. That is why direct comparisons are so useful. But, of course, if comparisons are too impractical, than they are not done. No argument there.
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