Help me beat my CD Transport

sbo6

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Empirical Audio

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Getting as clean (noiseless) data to the DAC is not a USB or an ethernet issue (as the path is concerned), you need clean data anyway, it makes the dac's job so much easier. That is why I use a LAN optical isolator with ultra low noise linear power supplies to separate my client communication from my server in my totally local network without any router (all routers create their own high level noise that is way higher than what is, IMHO, acceptable, and even an ultra low noise power supply does not cure it, they are designed to handle data, computer that is, not specially designed for music) And thats why I use Cat7 cables to connect them to that isolator, it does make a difference in a very transparent system. And to be even more clear about that configuration, the communication between the client and the server is about sending the command to play a song that is stored at a specific location, no music data go through. And yet, that way that I set up, to avoid vibrations that is, the LAN isolator, that again I say, does not carry music data, still affects the damn sound quality. That I have not figured out why its happening yet!

LAN isolators help, but not as much as powering the Router or Switch from a fast-responding LPS that has earth-ground connected to DC common. This is the best thing you can do if you have not already done it. Prevents leakage across the Ethernet transformers. BTW, I use the EMO EN-70e isolator. I find it preserves the sound quality best.

I would love to get my hands on a system (transmiting/receiving that is) that gets away with all of that (by the way I am an EE and a reviewer in my country (Greece) and I am still looking for the perfect solution). The solution that I have described is as near perfect, as far as I can tell, as I could get it, and since it works I shared it within the forum, but I am sure still it has issues, I just have not stumbled on them yet...

I sell and use a WiFi solution that is excellent. It is every bit as good as a wired Ethernet that is optimized, maybe better. See:

https://www.audiostream.com/content/empirical-audio-overdrive-sx-ethernet-dacpre

I sell it for $1K because it has an expensive LPS that is quite immune to AC noise and very fast reacting.

BTW, I am also a EE, with 35 years digital design experience.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

thmor288

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Have you looked at what Benjamin at Mojo Audio does in this respect on his low voltage DejaVu server suing JCAT Femto cards? Curious of your thoughts on his topology.

https://www.mojo-audio.com/deja-vu-music-server-windows-10/

No I haven't, but looks interesting.

My experience with all these is that you never know which one sounds better (and which is better for your system as is). The specs do not say that, unfortunately.

Only direct comparisons can do that, and how many of us can do that with everything that is out there?
 

thmor288

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Thanks again. Many people at CA implement very similar power configurations (myself included). Many have moved to D (ethernet) to D (USB) converters like micro/ultra rendu coupled with a front end computer server with linear PSUs. If you haven't yet I highly encourage you to visit the site. Also, Music CHi looks to be quite similar to JRiver however since it doesn't seem to support Tidal it's a deal breaker for me. I also didn't see any DoP support, again wouldn't work for me. I and many others have switched to Roon coupled with Tidal and HQplayer for configurable filters, upsampling, DSD <-> PCM conversion, and an unmatched client interface.

In terms of CPU and overall system loading, the approach above is completely opposite of yours since it requires quite a robust processor (Intel Core i7 if possible) since upsampling to DSD in particular is quite processor intensive. A low power, lower core count low frequency Atom would never do. This strategy is employed by many including the highly acclaimed SGM music server. Just different ways of trying to achieve the ultimate input for a DAC while providing the most convenient music management interface.

MusiCHI is really nothing like JRiver. It does sound better, it gives the user way more flexibility and control over the library, it is bit perfect (can you say that with certainty about the others, especially when doing conversion/upsampling?), the client/server and the new stand alone version of MusiCHI does offer DoP.

Sure, you can go with powerful DSD conversion etc. its just another possible way to skin the cat. But did you have the chance to directly compared them to see which one is better (if there can be a universally better solution, since everything is system/room depended, let alone taste of the individual user)? Also I, unfortunately, have costs limitations, so I have built my source piece by piece through time...

I sure have not directly compared these configurations, so I unfortunately have no opinion about it at all, there is no way (for me at least) to be certain which one sounds either better or truer to the original (if that is your goal of course) or both (ideal) and that is what is all about, that's why we bother, yes? But as you are, I am happy with the results, and I cannot go back to my CD transport.

I wish, though, I could do such a comparison.
 

thmor288

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LAN isolators help, but not as much as powering the Router or Switch from a fast-responding LPS that has earth-ground connected to DC common. This is the best thing you can do if you have not already done it. Prevents leakage across the Ethernet transformers. BTW, I use the EMO EN-70e isolator. I find it preserves the sound quality best.



I sell and use a WiFi solution that is excellent. It is every bit as good as a wired Ethernet that is optimized, maybe better. See:

https://www.audiostream.com/content/empirical-audio-overdrive-sx-ethernet-dacpre

I sell it for $1K because it has an expensive LPS that is quite immune to AC noise and very fast reacting.

BTW, I am also a EE, with 35 years digital design experience.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Good to know (35 years of experience here too, but mine is mainly in speaker design -and testing equipment-, only lately I have bothered to seek better digital solutions and its people like you I have to blame...).

Now, here it comes (you could probably see it coming since you design and sell stuff and I review stuff, right?): are you willing to take the risk and send me the actual product (the one that costs $1000, not the integrated solution to a $13.000 product) for a review (https://www.hiendnews.gr), so that I can directly compare it to my solution (you will either get it back after the review or I will buy it depending on the outcome)?

As I said, I would love to get my hands on something like that and my goal is always to find something that works as good as possible...

Thanasis M.
 

thmor288

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Your posts, filled with factual data and opinions are really a source of information, thanks! They are really welcome, as I am getting a JCAT Fento Ethernet card tomorrow I need to stop reading and take decisions and freeze the subject. Can I ask why using Audiophile Optimization and Fidelizer in the same system? Which does what and which should be installed at start?

BTW, I am 100% Roon dependent and want to use bit perfect streams to the Vivaldi upsampler.

Sorry to hear about that (the percentage of dependency I mean) :D

Fidelizer and Audiophile Optimizer (AO) do address different things in a PC, so eventually you need them both (thats how I got the best Sound Quality). You should go for Fidelizer Pro (not just the freebie) since it is better (in sound quality that is) and it does not alter in any way how you use the PC (it is easily reversible, just restart your computer and its off), AO is a more extreme and permanent solution (you can go back too but it is far more complicated and you should read carefully what the designer suggests before you decide to go for it). But they are both worth it. Also in my opinion everybody that is serious about digital playback should have also a computer based source in their system, don't or didn't you use a dedicated CD transport?

Also AO includes five different Sound Signature choices and five Digital Filter choices (all bit perfect) to chose and match to your system and tastes (I use 4 / D now, before it was 2 / D, next as the system progressed 3 / D). Hope that helped.
 

Pb Blimp

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Sorry to hear about that (the percentage of dependency I mean) :D

Fidelizer and Audiophile Optimizer (AO) do address different things in a PC, so eventually you need them both (thats how I got the best Sound Quality). You should go for Fidelizer Pro (not just the freebie) since it is better (in sound quality that is) and it does not alter in any way how you use the PC (it is easily reversible, just restart your computer and its off), AO is a more extreme and permanent solution (you can go back too but it is far more complicated and you should read carefully what the designer suggests before you decide to go for it). But they are both worth it. Also in my opinion everybody that is serious about digital playback should have also a computer based source in their system, don't or didn't you use a dedicated CD transport?

Also AO includes five different Sound Signature choices and five Digital Filter choices (all bit perfect) to chose and match to your system and tastes (I use 4 / D now, before it was 2 / D, next as the system progressed 3 / D). Hope that helped.

Oh my goodness; maybe the CD Transport isn't dead.
 

Pb Blimp

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Duplicate
 

Al M.

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Oh my goodness; maybe the CD Transport isn't dead.

Yup, computer audio is too complicated for me. When I read about the drama also on other threads, for example about the 6th or 67th (lost count) upgrade of Roon, finally promising audio nirvana after all the suboptimal dealings thus far, it's a big hot turn-off.

I'll stick to my transport for the time being. Until computer audio has reached maturity, which it obviously hasn't yet.
 

asiufy

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While I can't do anything about it being a turn off for you, as Roon does get updated quite frequently, I don't remember much in the way of "suboptimal dealings" with it, even at the pre-1.0 versions, and I've been using it since then.

Roon updates are not supposed to improve SQ, but add features and generally make the experience better.

And trust me, I've had my share of "suboptimal dealings" with many different vendors, be them of hardware (gear), software, even cables. Roon just isn't one of those.
 

Al M.

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Roon updates are not supposed to improve SQ,

Sorry, I've heard different. Maybe they are not supposed to, but apparently they do, according to some.

"Yeah, Roon sounds a but soft." -- "But hey, the most recent upgrades have cured the problem." Yadayada.
 

microstrip

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Sorry, I've heard different. Maybe they are not supposed to, but apparently they do, according to some.

"Yeah, Roon sounds a but soft." -- "But hey, the most recent upgrades have cured the problem." Yadayada.

Fortunately all the upgrades Roon has carried in my computer were almost transparent - Roon suggests to carry them, I confirmed and five minutes later I was listening to music.

Although I am critical concerning the sound quality of computer audio versus transports, I should say that this criticism is valid only when compared to the best CD transports I have had in my system, such as the Metronome Calypso, CEC TL1 or the Vivaldi. Compared to the average non optimized CD transport, I would perfectly accept the computer audio as an equivalent.

IMHO most of the problems of computer audio are created by the entropy caused by the enormous diversity of possible solutions and the impossibility of creating an universal best system. They are also particularly visible because in computer audio we feel pressed to join the DIY community - choosing and buying a server is not a simple process and the feeling that digital servers suffer a strong devaluation very fast also helps the hands on approach.

Just my .02 on the subject.
 

Empirical Audio

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Now, here it comes (you could probably see it coming since you design and sell stuff and I review stuff, right?): are you willing to take the risk and send me the actual product (the one that costs $1000, not the integrated solution to a $13.000 product) for a review (https://www.hiendnews.gr), so that I can directly compare it to my solution (you will either get it back after the review or I will buy it depending on the outcome)?

As I said, I would love to get my hands on something like that and my goal is always to find something that works as good as possible...

Thanasis M.

That is possible. I would not be willing to pay shipping to Greece and back though. I usually don't send anything outside the US for review, particularly to someone that I don't know. I did send some things to Australia...

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

bonzo75

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Fortunately all the upgrades Roon has carried in my computer were almost transparent - Roon suggests to carry them, I confirmed and five minutes later I was listening to music.

Although I am critical concerning the sound quality of computer audio versus transports, I should say that this criticism is valid only when compared to the best CD transports I have had in my system, such as the Metronome Calypso, CEC TL1 or the Vivaldi. Compared to the average non optimized CD transport, I would perfectly accept the computer audio as an equivalent.

IMHO most of the problems of computer audio are created by the entropy caused by the enormous diversity of possible solutions and the impossibility of creating an universal best system. They are also particularly visible because in computer audio we feel pressed to join the DIY community - choosing and buying a server is not a simple process and the feeling that digital servers suffer a strong devaluation very fast also helps the hands on approach.

Just my .02 on the subject.

+1
 

dctom

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Yup, computer audio is too complicated for me. When I read about the drama also on other threads, for example about the 6th or 67th (lost count) upgrade of Roon, finally promising audio nirvana after all the suboptimal dealings thus far, it's a big hot turn-off.

I'll stick to my transport for the time being. Until computer audio has reached maturity, which it obviously hasn't yet.


It is possible to get excellent results with a simple, low cost, computer server. Mine is a fanless mini itx with a modest i3 processor and ssd, running on Linux. Through trial and error I established the i3 actually sounds better than a similar generation i5, this bears out earlier comments that lower power CPUs create less noise.

It will upsample to 4 x dsd effortlessly, using HQ player or Jriver. Easily out-preforms a mac book pro and older mac mini, both with ssds.
The sound quality feeding my DAC is way better than my Playback MPS 5 playing CDs or SACDs.

As you say computer audio is still in a state of flux but it is possible to enjoy now without going overboard on complexity.
 

Al M.

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It is possible to get excellent results with a simple, low cost, computer server. Mine is a fanless mini itx with a modest i3 processor and ssd, running on Linux. Through trial and error I established the i3 actually sounds better than a similar generation i5, this bears out earlier comments that lower power CPUs create less noise.

It will upsample to 4 x dsd effortlessly, using HQ player or Jriver. Easily out-preforms a mac book pro and older mac mini, both with ssds.
The sound quality feeding my DAC is way better than my Playback MPS 5 playing CDs or SACDs.

As you say computer audio is still in a state of flux but it is possible to enjoy now without going overboard on complexity.

That may be, but it's still trial and error as you say (and I admire your will and effort to experiment). Speaks to my claim that computer audio still isn't a mature technology.

And I had less luck with a comparison server vs. my CD transport.
 

asiufy

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It is only trial and error if you want it to be, like dctom did. Otherwise, do a little research and buy from a reputable company providing turnkey solutions, like you would if you were buying any other part of your system.

Yes, a server is just another component, like your DAC or preamp, that you choose based on the sound, the company behind it, etc. Most people would never consider buying a preamp from kit, yet they're perfectly fine buying a server from parts. Beats me why...
 

thmor288

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That is possible. I would not be willing to pay shipping to Greece and back though. I usually don't send anything outside the US for review, particularly to someone that I don't know. I did send some things to Australia...

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

It would help if you had a clue about the shipping cost so that I could push for the review...

Also when are you going to post the finished product at your site?
 

thmor288

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It is possible to get excellent results with a simple, low cost, computer server. Mine is a fanless mini itx with a modest i3 processor and ssd, running on Linux. Through trial and error I established the i3 actually sounds better than a similar generation i5, this bears out earlier comments that lower power CPUs create less noise.

It will upsample to 4 x dsd effortlessly, using HQ player or Jriver. Easily out-preforms a mac book pro and older mac mini, both with ssds.
The sound quality feeding my DAC is way better than my Playback MPS 5 playing CDs or SACDs.

As you say computer audio is still in a state of flux but it is possible to enjoy now without going overboard on complexity.

Very nice...
 

Al M.

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It is only trial and error if you want it to be, like dctom did. Otherwise, do a little research and buy from a reputable company providing turnkey solutions, like you would if you were buying any other part of your system.

Yes, that's what I would do, but it wouldn't be cheap, unlike the solution dctom was explaining. I'd look for a Baetis server for 8 grand or so (excl. external storage), or perhaps even their top model for around 14 grand.

But at this point I had much, much bigger fish to fry. Aside from new speakers, the Octave RE320 amp unlocked high-resolution digital performance from my system (from plain Redbook CD) that would never have been possible without it. Buying an expensive server for a similar price instead would never have delivered that (a system is only as good as its weakest link), regardless of addition of hi res or not.

Yes, a server is just another component, like your DAC or preamp, that you choose based on the sound, the company behind it, etc. Most people would never consider buying a preamp from kit, yet they're perfectly fine buying a server from parts. Beats me why...

Good point.
 
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