Help me beat my CD Transport

Al M.

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Sep 10, 2013
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Agreed, you shouldnt have! People have been working on both software and hardware refinement and improvements happen all the time

Yes, and they declared file replay perfect already a decade ago, based on the jitter argument. Reminds me of Perfect Sound Forever. People just never learn.

Enuff preachy stuff now AL. ...go forth and sin (musically) no more. LoL

I will, by sticking to my transport, LOL. ;)
 

Al M.

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Sep 10, 2013
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Yes the trick is to turn a nasty general purpose PC into a music player without using a thin sounding OS. This means choosing the right Mobo with proper electrical subsystem handling, with proper shielding, proper filters on the drives, proper power being fed to the whole box, proper, separation of functions of the internal drives, proper isolation of the incoming signal, proper formatting of all, effective jitter reducing software, effective bios tweaking, effective throttling of the OS and CPU.

Basically, making the computer into a BAD general processing computer and into a great music server/player. I find when you do this, you dont have bandwith for upsampling and other fancy resource eating stuff. You just have a divine native rate playback beast.

Sounds like a reasonable strategy to get the best out of it.
 

Empirical Audio

Industry Expert
Oct 12, 2017
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As I discussed, jitter is the ONLY issue with transports, computers and servers that have S/PDIF coax digital output. For DACs that have USB input, it is the jitter of the master clock in that interface. It is ALL about jitter.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

Empirical Audio

Industry Expert
Oct 12, 2017
1,169
207
150
Great Pacific Northwest
www.empiricalaudio.com
Agreed, you shouldnt have! People have been working on both software and hardware refinement and improvements happen all the time.

Yes the trick is to turn a nasty general purpose PC into a music player without using a thin sounding OS. This means choosing the right Mobo with proper electrical subsystem handling, with proper shielding, proper filters on the drives, proper power being fed to the whole box, proper, separation of functions of the internal drives, proper isolation of the incoming signal, proper formatting of all, effective jitter reducing software, effective bios tweaking, effective throttling of the OS and CPU.

Basically, making the computer into a BAD general processing computer and into a great music server/player. I find when you do this, you dont have bandwith for upsampling and other fancy resource eating stuff. You just have a divine native rate playback beast.

I agree, but only when using USB. If you use Ethernet, the computer becomes a "don't-care".

The only thing to optimize is the router or switch that feeds the DAC, the Ethernet cabling that connects the two, and the playback software. Much simpler and cheaper.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

wisnon

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Dec 12, 2011
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Yes, and they declared file replay perfect already a decade ago, based on the jitter argument. Reminds me of Perfect Sound Forever. People just never learn.



I will, by sticking to my transport, LOL. ;)
LoL

I never bought into the Perfect Sound BS.

yes....your (good) CD player will beat an averagely tweaked Server, but never a killer server and killer Dac combo.
 

wisnon

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I agree, but only when using USB. If you use Ethernet, the computer becomes a "don't-care".

The only thing to optimize is the router or switch that feeds the DAC, the Ethernet cabling that connects the two, and the playback software. Much simpler and cheaper.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio


I disagree, it may be less but simply changing OS alters the sound characteristics significantly. Ethernet is also packetized data and has its issue. There is also electrical interference to conquer and there is embedded jitter to deal with. Jitter within bytes.

Finally, to receive Ethernet in the Dac, thre is normally some small Linux computer. This means Linux sound flavour and also is Hummingbird better than RaspPi?
 

Windows X

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Feb 28, 2011
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I've been spending over 10 years trying to beat the best Esoteric transports too. Glad to see someone seeking the similar goal here. I heard all the finest digital sources from Esoteric/dCS/Emm Labs/CH Precision/Weiss/etc. through years so I'm fully aware of what you're going through right now.

Once I think it's possible, I'll let you know as a fellow audiophile who want server that actually sound better than highend CD transport with Esoteric drive. I'm a close friend of Esoteric distributor for over 10 years to hear everything about it and companies that use Esoteric drive. :)
 

Empirical Audio

Industry Expert
Oct 12, 2017
1,169
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I disagree, it may be less but simply changing OS alters the sound characteristics significantly.

Very true. Also true of USB and even S/PDIF. All interfaces are affected by playback app. I didn't say that the app was a don't care, just the computer itself.

Ethernet is also packetized data and has its issue. There is also electrical interference to conquer and there is embedded jitter to deal with. Jitter within bytes.

Nonsense. There is no such thing as "jitter within bytes". The only electrical interference is signal integrity and capacitive coupling through the isolation transformers. These can both be eliminated or optimized.

Finally, to receive Ethernet in the Dac, there is normally some small Linux computer. This means Linux sound flavor and also is Hummingbird better than RaspPi?

Also nonsense. There are imbedded processors in most interfaces now. Has nothing to do with Linux "sound flavor" and there is no such thing anyway.

I never heard Hummingbird.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 
Last edited:

Empirical Audio

Industry Expert
Oct 12, 2017
1,169
207
150
Great Pacific Northwest
www.empiricalaudio.com
I've been spending over 10 years trying to beat the best Esoteric transports too. Glad to see someone seeking the similar goal here. I heard all the finest digital sources from Esoteric/dCS/Emm Labs/CH Precision/Weiss/etc. through years so I'm fully aware of what you're going through right now.

Once I think it's possible, I'll let you know as a fellow audiophile who want server that actually sound better than highend CD transport with Esoteric drive. I'm a close friend of Esoteric distributor for over 10 years to hear everything about it and companies that use Esoteric drive. :)

Add a Synchro-Mesh reclocker to ANY transport, even the Esoteric, and you will achieve even lower jitter and better SQ. No transport delivers 7psec at the end of a 4 foot coax cable.

Transports don't have any sound quality associated with them, only differing amounts and qualities of jitter, including jitter caused by bad signal integrity, poor impedance matching and low slew-rates added to the intrinsic jitter of the master clock and associated circuits and power supplies/regulators. It's only jitter, period.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

Windows X

Well-Known Member
Feb 28, 2011
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www.fidelizer-audio.com
Add a Synchro-Mesh reclocker to ANY transport, even the Esoteric, and you will achieve even lower jitter and better SQ. No transport delivers 7psec at the end of a 4 foot coax cable.

Transports don't have any sound quality associated with them, only differing amounts and qualities of jitter, including jitter caused by bad signal integrity, poor impedance matching and low slew-rates added to the intrinsic jitter of the master clock and associated circuits and power supplies/regulators. It's only jitter, period.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

I also tried your USB interface and reclocker back in the days. It works well for its price and can be very effective in some systems but it didn't reach to the level I wanted in my system.
 

Empirical Audio

Industry Expert
Oct 12, 2017
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Great Pacific Northwest
www.empiricalaudio.com
I also tried your USB interface and reclocker back in the days. It works well for its price and can be very effective in some systems but it didn't reach to the level I wanted in my system.

The Synchro-Mesh has improved a lot in the last year. Jitter was in the 50-100psec range before. Now it is 7psec when used with my excellent BNC cable. Jitter measurements:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=157348.0

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

Windows X

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Feb 28, 2011
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wisnon

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Dec 12, 2011
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Very true. Also true of USB and even S/PDIF. All interfaces are affected by playback app. I didn't say that the app was a don't care, just the computer itself.



Nonsense. There is no such thing as "jitter within bytes". The only electrical interference is signal integrity and capacitive coupling through the isolation transformers. These can both be eliminated or optimized.



Also nonsense. There are imbedded processors in most interfaces now. Has nothing to do with Linux "sound flavor" and there is no such thing anyway.

I never heard Hummingbird.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Steve, I am afraid we will have to disagree here on the latter points. Bits can get scrambled within bytes on playback, as bit order matters. Scrambling is a form of jitter, unless we are talking semantics here?

The embedded processors, what OS do they use?

Linux doesn't have a sound flavour? Hahahahaha.

I have a world class Linux expert buddy who claimed he could mimic Windows 2016 Server sound and any flavour in Linux. After a month of frustration, he gave up and surrendered to the Dark Side. The best explanation he could give was the Windows handled music playback in a much more direct manner. Linux is thinner. LoL

With much respect...
 
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Empirical Audio

Industry Expert
Oct 12, 2017
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207
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Great Pacific Northwest
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I'm sure it'll perform better for its price but you can't hope for such thing to rival $30k CD Transport + $20k Masterclock. The gap was too big.

I not only hope it will, I am confident that it will outperform ANY transport using the following configuration:

Standard BNC cable -> Synchromesh/OTL -> Reference BNC cable (powered by my Dynamo Hynes-based LPS)

Total cost = $2447 plus shipping

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

Empirical Audio

Industry Expert
Oct 12, 2017
1,169
207
150
Great Pacific Northwest
www.empiricalaudio.com
Steve, I am afraid we will have to disagree here on the latter points. Bits can get scrambled within bytes on playback, as bit order matters. Scrambling is a form of jitter, unless we are talking semantics here?

How can "scrambling possible happen? If this actually happened, the you would not be able to get a clean printout over USB or an error-free transfer over Ethernet.

The embedded processors, what OS do they use?

They can use most OS's, really thin OS or even machine language.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio[/QUOTE][/quote]
 

Windows X

Well-Known Member
Feb 28, 2011
138
51
935
www.fidelizer-audio.com
I not only hope it will, I am confident that it will outperform ANY transport using the following configuration:

Standard BNC cable -> Synchromesh/OTL -> Reference BNC cable (powered by my Dynamo Hynes-based LPS)

Total cost = $2447 plus shipping

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Unless you can say it's 1000% sound quality improvements over your past works, I won't be convinced. I bought exD interface last year for dual BNC output to play DSD with Emm Labs DAC. I can't say they work perfectly but it's still good enough for its price under $2k and support my masterclock + Rubidium.

If you can make a video demonstration between your solution against highend CD transport using Esoteric drive for me to listen and see if it's worth giving a shot, I'll consider it.

Why don't you buy some Esoteric CD Player for testing purposes? Getting used Esoteric X-03SE should be around $3k now and its coaxial transport is very good and better than most CD transports under $10k today.

Maybe it's just me but I hope more computer audio manufacturers will try harder like getting Esoteric transports and develop a solution to outperform them like I'm trying now.

Regards,
Keetakawee
 

Empirical Audio

Industry Expert
Oct 12, 2017
1,169
207
150
Great Pacific Northwest
www.empiricalaudio.com
Unless you can say it's 1000% sound quality improvements over your past works, I won't be convinced. I bought exD interface last year for dual BNC output to play DSD with Emm Labs DAC. I can't say they work perfectly but it's still good enough for its price under $2k and support my masterclock + Rubidium.

If you can make a video demonstration between your solution against highend CD transport using Esoteric drive for me to listen and see if it's worth giving a shot, I'll consider it.

Why don't you buy some Esoteric CD Player for testing purposes? Getting used Esoteric X-03SE should be around $3k now and its coaxial transport is very good and better than most CD transports under $10k today.

Maybe it's just me but I hope more computer audio manufacturers will try harder like getting Esoteric transports and develop a solution to outperform them like I'm trying now.

Regards,
Keetakawee

IMO, the only way to convince you will be in your own system. Everything mentioned has 30-day money-back, less shipping.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

Windows X

Well-Known Member
Feb 28, 2011
138
51
935
www.fidelizer-audio.com
IMO, the only way to convince you will be in your own system. Everything mentioned has 30-day money-back, less shipping.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

I'm all for 30-day money back guarantee as my server also have the same policy. Please think of it this way, I used your products before and found it was like 25% of my expectations comparing to CD transport in good systems I'm familiar with. I still have some of yours like Off Ramp. With your specified upgrades, I doubt it'll raise from 25% to 100% and beyond. I have my own 10M Rubidium clock with over $10k investment so how Synchromesh/OTL can make this better? I just can't see it.

I would consider purchasing again if you release something new that can have potentials to meet my expectations like new USB interfaces or your own servers or solutions related to clock that can make my system better. I heard new 10M clock with ultra low phase noise but it's Oven clock. Guys who brought it to test in my room said they prefer that clock but I find performance rather lack luster. Maybe not too bad for $3-5k 10M clock in market where people can't appreciate how powerful Cesium can be.

If I live in USA, I may consider purchasing your products, give you my thoughts and return it if I decide it won't stay permanently in my system. But shipping cost to Thailand is quite high and there's import duty I'll need to absorb too. I'd rather invest on product that meets my expectations better.

Regards,
Keetakawee
 

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