The point is that a pre has requirements to solder and play with caps and current and do various calculations regarding resistor cap etc value. For streamer you plug in some components and download software, nothing dangerous. It is then a matter of tweaks and patience.
Help me beat my CD Transport
- Thread starter joeling
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When it comes to tweaking and patience I'd rather spend my time and effort on essentials like room acoustics and speaker positioning.
It is not difficult to understand, I will present my view on the subject.
The process of selecting and matching servers and other equipment is very different, IMHO it is not a component like others. During decades we listened, tweaked and got experience in component matching and system perfecting. We know feel we understand somehow this process and have defined out preferences. A server is a completely different entity. It is supposed not to have a "sound" but it has one. They all sound different. No one knows why they sound they like they do - "experts" disagree every minute on them. There are too many ways of connecting servers to DACs. The distribution is not clear as with typical components - most servers must be bought mail order on the net, we can not borrow them from local dealers to listen. And most of the time they show as a one man company, that has no evident experience with typical SOTA high-end. Unfortunately 95% of computer audio is blogosphere, nothing else.
Also, in most public presentations - shows and shops - the sound coming from servers is poor. I have witnessed exhibitors switching to a physical media or analog to save the demo.
The perceived value is another reason - why paying ten times the price of a top desktop for a machine that is unsellable and we are not sure that we will like? As always, YMMV, I would appreciate to read different opinions on the subject while assembling my server ...
Yes, they do sound different apparently, sometimes very much so. As two friends of mine recently found out to their consternation when they compared their servers directly.
Yes, I'd only go with something (like a Baetis) that I can borrow from my local dealer, Goodwin's High End, to listen to in my own system. Otherwise, game over for me.
True. And everyone is an "expert".
Can I call bullshit on those who say this, and who obviously do not understand electrical engineering?
Thanks thomor
As Ked says building a server is quite straight forward but I guess not everyone enjoys diy tweaking. It certainly reaps dividends as I have recently realized. The technology is progressing very quickly. It is quite likely current, expensive, turnkey solution could well become redundant all too rapidly. Another, personal, reason for the DIY approach although I would like to try out Innuos.
Shipping is $95 each way.
I probably will never put a photo, just a description on the site because it's an option for my DAC only.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
It can be cheap, in relative terms. If all your local dealer carries is the Baetis, it's his loss, as well as the local clientele. My servers start at $1200, cheaper than most transports, with built-in storage, and no software to install/fiddle with.
I understand now that a lot of the (non-SQ) benefits of a server would be lost on you, due to your listening habits and preferences, so I understand how you chose not to pursue it. That's perfectly fine. But I feel I must tell you there ARE simple, inexpensive servers out there, like there are tons of people enjoying them right now.
Servers, DAC's and digital interfaces can have just as many tweaks, even more to minimize jitter.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
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Not really. I could easily find schematics for anything (pre, phono, amp, etc.), buy the parts and put it together myself, or pay a local tech to do it. Still, most people don't do that.
Because the computer industry "embraced" the streaming thing, there are "schematics" and pre-made software solutions out there, that allows DIYers to put together a server on their own, and perhaps give people the impression/idea that it's all too easy. How is that different from me grabbing one of Nelson Pass' amp schematics and putting it together?
One thing I guess we all can agree on is that this technology is in its infancy. It'll continue to improve, both via hardware as well as low-level software upgrades, as companies, and why not, DIYers, discover new ways to skin that particular cat. Again, this is no different than electronics/speaker designers tweaking their designs and putting out mk2s, or slightly upgraded versions of product.
Of course I can only speak to my own personal journey with computer audio but my path has led me to the Zenith se. I started with a basic Mac Mini ~6 years ago eventually upgrading PSU, SSD. Moved to PC with AO, Jcat USB, etc., then started in with all the USB devices with the SOtM as the final leg. Eventually I had EVERYTHING powered by high quality LPSUs, with the exception of the motherboard in my high power PC running Win Server 2012/HQPlayer. My final endpoint was the great Ultra-200 with all the available clocking modifications and ethernet upgrades. Essentially a maxed out SoTM trifecta.
Last week I took delivery on the Innuos Zenith SE. It was very hard for me to justify laying out the dough since I couldn't wrap my head around how things could get better. I had all the top psu's, cables, and chose the best software to suit my tastes. I went from high power processing to low (and everything in between), all requiring different levels of voltage. This is not going to morph into a rave about the Zenith because there are IMO other comperable and possibly better options. I will just say that there is a lot to be said about a purpose built server that has been designed from the ground up by a company with real R&D.
Last week I took delivery on the Innuos Zenith SE. It was very hard for me to justify laying out the dough since I couldn't wrap my head around how things could get better. I had all the top psu's, cables, and chose the best software to suit my tastes. I went from high power processing to low (and everything in between), all requiring different levels of voltage. This is not going to morph into a rave about the Zenith because there are IMO other comperable and possibly better options. I will just say that there is a lot to be said about a purpose built server that has been designed from the ground up by a company with real R&D.
Thank you.
For the record, the Innuos Zenith SE costs less than the Baetis that has been mentioned here before.
We have some idea of why they sound like they do. It's mostly the jitter of the Master Clock, wherever that resides. With USB however, it is clear that different player software and even different revision levels of the same software change the sound. It is clear that different USB ports and how the logic is powered changes the sound. It is clear that different USB cables change the sound. These are some of the reasons why I'm focusing more in Ethernet now and less on USB. Optimization of USB is not easy, so the current way to get there is to buy a server like Antipodes or Aurender N10 which take care of this for you. You can also eliminate some of the sound dependencies of USB by using an Ethernet to USB converter from Sonore. Be aware that even buying the best server for USB will not fix the jitter in a poorly implemented USB interface in a DAC.
There are advantages and disadvantages of each connection method: USB, Ethernet, I2S, S/PDIF and AES/EBU.
Async USB - convenient, but too many things to optimize and too many variables that affect SQ. Can be galvanically isolated. Dependent on the Master Clock in the interface or DAC, not the server. Usually requires new drivers for PC for each OS release.
I2S - this is a great connection because it connects directly to the D/A, however the Master Clock in the server had better be really good. No way to galvanically isolate. Good I2S cables are expensive.
S/PDIF - this can be extremely good, depending on the S/PDIF receiver used in the DAC. Dependent on the Master Clock quality in the server. Can be galvanically isolated with a pulse transformer.
AES/EBU - has the advantage because it is differential of having some common-mode noise rejection, but can also be galvanically isolated with a pulse transformer. Disadvantage of requiring higher voltage, so another stage of buffering adds more jitter. Dependent on the Master Clock quality in the server. Difficult to get a good cable impedance match due to the XLR connectors.
Ethernet - Very few variables that affect SQ. Can use inexpensive cabling. Shares the LAN, so traffic can interrupt playback. Automatically galvanically isolated, however some steps required in power supplies for router or switch to make it ultra-low noise. Dependent on the Master Clock in the interface or DAC. No reliance on special drivers. This is the easiest route to good SQ IME.
I recommend to not spend big bux on a server. Instead, get a good Ethernet interface externally or in the DAC and just use any decent computer to run Jriver or Roon. You can still stream Tidal or play your rips etc.. Rip CD's with XLD on Mac and rip with dBpoweramp on PC.
Steve N
Empirical Audio
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I certainly don't agree with this. USB has advanced significantly in the last 8-10 years. I have designed 6 generations of interfaces for USB myself.
The understanding of jitter and how to effectively deal with it has improved as well. Many new oscillators with very low jitter available. It is now easier to achieve low jitter with computer audio than with a transport. This is why you are seeing more and more transports that are essentially computers with CDROM drives.
If it was not good enough to compete with vinyl, you would not see the majority of rooms at trade shows using it.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Wow congrats Iamrael. So can you go into a little more detail about the performance improvements compared to your "maxed out" Trifecta?
That is only half the equation.
The hardware. How many address the software side like the Memory player?
Even the hardware pros miss a lot of tricks that guys like Paul Pang spotted years ago.
As to the OS, that is another imbroglio...Linux or Windows?
Finally, bit perfect?? Dont make me laugh as that is a complete misnomer.
Right now the ideal solution is to get the best hardware possible an load it with the best software/Clock management environment possible.
Of course I could buy an inexpensive server, and I am sure Goodwin's has them too. But that's not the point. I don't just want any server, I want one that matches or even surpasses the sound quality of my transport. I'd be extremely surprised if a cheap server could do that. Of course I may be wrong, but I definitely would not bet on it. Particularly given my experiences so far.
If I ever try a Baetis, I'll give an inexpensive server a shot too. But I don't expect miracles. Will be a fun comparison though.
You are forgetting an important concept again - acknowledged and verified expertise. Nelson Pass has an impressive CV in audio high-end and a long permanence in DIY forums, supporting people and explaining the why's of his designs and the type of sound he wants to create. Although I never built any of his designs I owned some of his legacy minimalist products and have followed his technical posts just for enjoyment. Also if I want excellent instruments and tools to confirm my audio DIY achievements I can have them almost for free, for computer audio nothing is available. It is all belief, nothing else.
The big difference in computer audio is that in most fields we tweak to reach our preferences, in computer audio many just look for simply reaching the level of their CD transports (me, for example) or having a sound quality on level with their analog systems.
Anyway it is nice that you refer so openly that computer audio is its infancy and will continue to improve - it is my big hope since I decided to enter it! However, reading from dissonant experts it seems we have now reached the top of the mountain, after 30 years of bit perfect streams.
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