Confessions of an Audiophile Junky-I Got Center Stage With Pitch Perfect Sound

Ron, that's an understatement.
As far as I'm concerned, if anyone else other than Steve had originated the thread, and it carried on the way it did, he would have shut it down, end of. We only have to threaten to raise our voices online and we're given a couple of warnings max, and then that's that. And undoubtedly Amir didn't help, but hey plenty of others are feisty on threads too w'out things tailspinning.
My abiding opinion is that it was a thread that no amount of derailing would have amounted in its early termination.
The nearest thing I've ever got into re nihilistic emotions online was the infamous "kitty litter" criticisms of Entreq by Purite Audio and his posting of a 15mins YouTube link to Psychic Healing aimed at me, to call me a sap.
Well I did feel the need to fight back. I believe Steve then put us both on the Naughty Step, and tempers calmed. No way would it ever have been allowed to get to the white heat of the MB debacle.

PeterA said:

Joe, I would be most curious about a direct comparison between the CS footers and the Qpods. If you do such a comparison, will it be with the rest of the components already sitting on CS footers, or will it be a simple direct comparison between the CS and the Qpod under one component with a description of the differences you hear? I hope you do this with your familiar system without any other variables added to confuse things.

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Hi Peter - I like to reduce the number of variables and try to only change one at a time - though sometimes that is very difficult, if not impossible to do. In this case, I may start with just the feet under my phono stage as I expect that to be one of most sensitive components in my system wrt to vibration. This will be done once my ssytem is back in place and has had time to settle back in.

Also given the long settling in time with the CS footers, I will do as Steve suggests which is to switch from the CS (after 10 or so days) to the QPods.

And thanks to Joe for repealing his prohibition on comparisons - I feel these are useful and informative as long as they are kept civil (which is usually the case on WBF) and performed as rigorously as possible.

Cheers, Joe

Well said Steve and your decision along with Ron’s on TOS is good.

I look forward to comparing these footers in my system once the AS2000 is delivered and spinning. I removed all my stillpoints yesterday from source components except for my speakers and power amps to get use to the source component sound w/o after market footers. This will give me time and act as a reset allowing for a better comparison between these and stillpoints.

Steve, I'm sure we agree more than we disagree
I have no problem with you being part of CSFs, it sounds like a fascinating product, and you must have a lot of pride selling it.
Fwiw, I'd have felt a bit unsure as well about some of my faves had they been launched online w backing of the forum owner. I guess this is a British reticence thing, we're not so "in yr face" in the UK, LOL.
I struggle w claims of "uniqueness" and as you know, absolutely didn't get on w the original trial period/restocking fee.
But the claims of what they do feel a lot more reasonable, and the trial policy is much more palatable.
So I'm done w my tetchiness here (another lovely British trait, you off course know Basil Fawlty from Fawlty Towers).
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But you'll never be able to repair the damage done by the MB fiasco which however you cut it looked like a sales pitch that for the vitriol generated would have been shut down in any other product.
It's never been enough to just say the claims were unreasonable and then rewritten, and Amir was a saboteur. The moment Leif came on board to actively generate momentum and add inappropriate interventions basically left me with only one conclusion, a very poor one at that.

I think the 30 day money back return policy and the move to a sub forum is a very good compromise..it demonstrates belief in the product and it effectively removes the the feeling that the general forum is being "abused"

Rodney Gold said:

I think the 30 day money back return policy and the move to a sub forum is a very good compromise..it demonstrates belief in the product and it effectively removes the the feeling that the general forum is being "abused"

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+1...

In it's own sub-forum it's like any other mfg'er posting about new products which happens all the time.

I've posted reviews of my cables which I don't feel is any different, and they never got removed. They just never generated 35 pages of discussion...

spiritofmusic said:

Peter, I directly discussed buzz on Entreq that I set off some years back with the UK distrbr.
I was told very few sales resulted directly from it, ie no one ever said they try/buy as a result of my words, or those of Barry2013 who kinda took the baton on.
First, I was suprised, I thought there might be more knock on effect for a niche product.
It didn't damp my enthusiasm for talking about it, so pivotal was it in wrangling me a half decent sound back in London.
The distribr was grateful however because it contributed to brand awareness, and this all in the long run helps visibility and the brand becoming established with provenance.
To some extent I'm doing the same thing w Stacore, and I feel like I have a duty to inform the community of a really interesting product which despite my initial doubts actually outperformed in my room over the default choice active product. Here, I'm right in at the beginning, maybe my words mean more. Again, if not a single extra sale results, I still feel I'm contributing to what I consider an excellent new enterprise wet its feet, and it would please me no end if Stacore establishes itself as a natural "go to" option in it's sector.
It's a slightly different matter IMHO if the originator of the thread is an active partner in the selling of the product, then it all feels a bit formal and saturation coverage, and now the forum is an official marketplace.
I'll make an admission, I was very close to quitting participation in WBF over the MasterBuilt spat, one of the most wholly negative and vitriolic things I've ever seen on a forum populated by so-called intelligent and reasonable individuals.

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I agree Marc. I think the CS thread takes it even a bit further that your Stacore thread and there seems to be a gradual shift in tone and effect and use of the site. Or it may just be me noticing this and this may simply be an exception and not harbinger of things to come. Who knows?

I welcome Steve's willingness to solicit feedback. The resulting discussion was effective in the whole banner advertising thread and how to fund WBF.

PeterA said:

Joe, I would be most curious about a direct comparison between the CS footers and the Qpods. If you do such a comparison, will it be with the rest of the components already sitting on CS footers, or will it be a simple direct comparison between the CS and the Qpod under one component with a description of the differences you hear? I hope you do this with your familiar system without any other variables added to confuse things.

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The best way to do that is to get all 12 CS settled in and then replace the CS with the Qs right at the source (DAC). The source drives the signal and you'll hear the most accurate depiction of change at that point..... That's the way we do here when we test everything we make.......source first.

DaveC said:

+1...

In it's own sub-forum it's like any other mfg'er posting about new products which happens all the time.

I've posted reviews of my cables which I don't feel is any different, and they never got removed. They just never generated 35 pages of discussion...

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Master Built cables generated 69 pages of hot discussion!

microstrip said:

Master Built cables generated 69 pages of hot discussion!

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....and happy new owners. Isn't that what it's all about? Spreading joy

microstrip said:

Master Built cables generated 69 pages of hot discussion!

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Who's counting when your havin a good time !

Steve Williams said:

Hi Marc..... you and I have great enthusiasm for products in which we truly believe. I am not a manufacturer but rather the international distributor of this product one which I feel is like none before it. I am trying to understand how it is OK by you for the countless other distributors and dealers here starting a thread on their products in their own subforum. This has been going on here for years. We have countless distributors here who introduce their new products all of the time. Do you not feel this is an official marketplace with all of these other products being touted by their distributors?.

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Hello Steve. Since we have been discussing the marketing of the CS footers, could you please clarify something? Based on previous posts in this thread, I am under the impression that there will be no individual dealers for these new footers. As the international distributor, will you be the sole global source to the retail consumer for these products, or will you act as the middle man between Joe and international dealers/sale reps for overseas markets? If you are the former, that seems to be a different situation that some of the distributors who come to WBF to discuss that they are now carrying a new brand from some well established manufacturer in addition to the many other brands that they distribute to other distinct retail outlets. In essence, they are using WBF to announce a new product line as a service to the reader and promotion of their distributorship.

Your position seems somewhat different. You are selling only one product and I think you have the sole distribution. In this sense, you seem to be more similar to a company like Reno HiFi (excepting a few other Pass dealers) which sells only Pass Labs gear and has a reach basically all over the world through their website. I don't see individuals like Mark from Reno HiFi starting a subforum on WBF to promote his Pass Labs products, in essence, using the reach of this site to promote his business. You seem to be suggesting that countless other distributors do in fact do this on WBF and that you are one of many who do the same thing. Candidly, I think there is a difference here.

Again, I'm not saying anything is right or wrong here, and I would defend you right and ability to do whatever you want on your own site. I am just trying to better understand, or have it more overtly described, both your role as distributor of these footers and the evolving role of WBF when it comes to marketing audio products. Admittedly, you are in a great position as co-owner of this site, to do just that. It seems to be your intent, and you have indicated that a shift is indeed occurring at WBF. Are you and Ron considering changing the mission statement or motto from "The friendliest place to find the best in audio, video, music, movies, television, healthe, sports and much more!"? I like that phrase, but it somehow now sounds a bit incomplete.

If your intent is to make the site more financially viable, as with the addition of the banner ads, and more relevant to the reader in this changing audio environment, perhaps you could explore increasing your efforts to involve more distributors and manufacturers and transform this site into a new marketplace of ideas, discussions, reviews, brand promotion and sales: in essence combining what TAS is for information but more interactive and immediate, and what Audiogon and Ebay are for direct sales.

joelavrencik said:

The best way to do that is to get all 12 CS settled in and then replace the CS with the Qs right at the source (DAC). The source drives the signal and you'll hear the most accurate depiction of change at that point..... That's the way we do here when we test everything we make.......source first.

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Thanks Joe. Assuming that the other Joe is not going to have 12 or 3 Qpods under each of three component in order to switch them all out for three complete sets of four CS footers, would you recommend this approach rather than having all of the components on their stock footers and then just directly comparing one set of Qpods to one set of CS footers on the one source component?

What you recommend seems more akin to having an all MIT cable system and then replacing just one cable link at the source with one cable from another brand. I agree that a complete system approach is best, but it is also the most expensive, and I think Joe has the Qpods under just one component, the phono stage.

and transform this site into a new marketplace of ideas, discussions, reviews, brand promotion and sales:

You wont attract more readers if the forum content becomes biased heavily towards commercialism...
all opinions and reviews of those with vested commercial interests are treated with skepticism .. not just in audio..all that will happen is there will be more noise to sift thru to find the nuggets

Rodney Gold said:

and transform this site into a new marketplace of ideas, discussions, reviews, brand promotion and sales:

You wont attract more readers if the forum content becomes biased heavily towards commercialism...
all opinions and reviews of those with vested commercial interests are treated with skepticism .. not just in audio..all that will happen is there will be more noise to sift thru to find the nuggets

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Hello Rodney,

The reason WBF is the only audio-related forum I visit is that I hugely appreciate the exchange of insight and real-world experience the membership have offered in regard to brands and products that have the potential to enrich our musical lives. In many cases, that insight and experience has come from dealers, distributors and manufacturers themselves, some of who began as fervent and passionate owners of said products before taking the plunge to represent/invest in those same products in a commercial capacity.

Though I realise it always has the potential to cause a conflict of interest, very many of these members conduct themselves with integrity and transparency, and I think it would be a tremendous loss to prevent those whose passion for a product they have a vested interest in from posting simply because they stand to profit from its propagation. For me, some of the most significant and insightful posts have come from people in exactly that position, and personally, I welcome more of it should it provide additional data points we stand to benefit from in the long run.

Yes, of course, it needs to be handled in a manner in which those vested interests are clearly articulated and defined, and yes, we need to work out how much is signal and how much is noise, just like we do with anyone posting here.

In that regard, all that matters to me is how individual members conduct themselves. Vested interests or not.

Be well,

853guy