Confessions of an Audiophile Junky-I Got Center Stage With Pitch Perfect Sound
- Thread starter Steve Williams
- Start date
Bruce, not brave really (on the flip side, my less than enthusiastic comments on other a certain uber uber priced grounding box aren't trolling despite what one member calls them).
First we're told these footers change the perspective of your listening, so you're "in" the orchestra, not listening "back from" or "at". This is kinda backtracked on, or at least qualified, as "bringing the orchestra to you" or "increasing immersiveness" by maxxing transparency of the system so the listening room disappears and we're at one with the orchestra.
And on top of that, it's intended effect is unique, and how it does it is unique.
What's occurring to me is that in effect this is all about enhancing the spell that we're not listening to a system, but that's there's minimal or no reproduction chain, ie removing all barriers to the musicians, and the trick of removing the walls of the listening room.
And this is the rub. Those tweaks that promote themselves as improving transparency and communication of the musicians is so much more acceptable to me as a message, esp when they don't claim they're by far the best, or nothing else does the same.
IMHO the marketing message of these footers just turns me off with claims of effects intended that when you read thru them aren't actually so unique compared to
other tweaks.
The moment I see "unique", "never heard before", "not achieved anywhere else" etc etc, and either the effects are not what appeals to me, or seem to be marketing speak/hype, I walk on.
I had a pretty big row with a well regarded audio designer who claimed by definition his passive preamp was by far the best one on the mkt, on principle because of how it was designed, and when I disagreed we kinda fell out.
First we're told these footers change the perspective of your listening, so you're "in" the orchestra, not listening "back from" or "at". This is kinda backtracked on, or at least qualified, as "bringing the orchestra to you" or "increasing immersiveness" by maxxing transparency of the system so the listening room disappears and we're at one with the orchestra.
And on top of that, it's intended effect is unique, and how it does it is unique.
What's occurring to me is that in effect this is all about enhancing the spell that we're not listening to a system, but that's there's minimal or no reproduction chain, ie removing all barriers to the musicians, and the trick of removing the walls of the listening room.
And this is the rub. Those tweaks that promote themselves as improving transparency and communication of the musicians is so much more acceptable to me as a message, esp when they don't claim they're by far the best, or nothing else does the same.
IMHO the marketing message of these footers just turns me off with claims of effects intended that when you read thru them aren't actually so unique compared to
other tweaks.
The moment I see "unique", "never heard before", "not achieved anywhere else" etc etc, and either the effects are not what appeals to me, or seem to be marketing speak/hype, I walk on.
I had a pretty big row with a well regarded audio designer who claimed by definition his passive preamp was by far the best one on the mkt, on principle because of how it was designed, and when I disagreed we kinda fell out.
Yoh SM,
Enthusiasm is infectious-here we follow with baited breath those that reside in the "strato layer" of this Hi End Audio world--we devour the words of wisdom of those experiencing for themselves and striving to make us aware with their platitudes
C'mon we lap it up--such revelations are what make this community fly-- when the exalted ones preach the good words we listen and take them to heart--ah!-- the chord is struck we must try these objects of sonic pleasure
where and how can we do this? Whether we admit it or not--and some of us have been around the traps for along time--we love and lap it up--we can make up our own minds power the to pursue takes a meaningful leap--mischief now abounds as we search for the Holy Grails.
And I/we want more /tell us more--the Techies spout yeahs --or nays--but the seed has been sown-- and we are ever so aware of our Mentors that impart these observations here on WBF--Long may they reign!
Meanwhile our quest begins--
BruceD
Marc, I understand how you feel about some of the hyperbole in these types of threads. We have seen it many times before and they all seem to generate the same kind of discussion. Sometimes these threads are just a series of extremely exuberant reports about how some new component or device has transformed one's system. How is Steve's enthusiasm here any different from your past excitement about your TransFi rim drive with air bearing linear tracking arm, your new room, new power grid, new isolation devices and recent revelations about digital audio? You are skeptical about some of the claims made about these footers. Do you not think some are skeptical about the claims you have made about Stacore? I happen to believe your observations because of my experience with Vibraplanes, but your claims are really not that different from what Steve has claimed with his MasterBuilt cables and these CS footers.
Remember MikeL's journey through Durand tonearms and how the new bearing, the new headshell, the new record weight, all transformed the system to new, never before heard levels of realism? I waxed on for post after post about Jim Smith's Roomplay service for an optimized listener/speaker/room relationship, the effect of DeoxIT on my connectors, and the glories of proper VTA. How about the recent threads about the American Sound turntable and the MSB Select II DAC, described as the best turntable and perhaps DAC ever made? Do you yourself not lust after these components after reading about them and seeing the photos? We are all susceptible to these hyperbolic moments and we want to share them with others. And the members want to read about them.
This thread is no different than the earlier ones about Stillpoint footers and Masterbuilt cables. This is Steve's platform. These types of threads are about how the word gets out. In this particular case, it is also about improving the marketing campaign. We are a small community of enthusiasts who love to read, talk, discuss, and debate. And we love to look at beautiful photographs of great gear in phenomenal rooms.
On reflection, I see little or no difference between Steve extolling the virtues of these footers in his system accompanied by posts and explanations from the designer himself and you extolling the virtues of Stacore isolation platforms in your system accompanied by posts and explanations from that designer. You and Steve and Mike are doing a service by creating awareness and spreading the word on what may be great products to the rest of us. And, in your own ways, you are putting Stacore, TransFi, Center Stage, Masterbuilt, Durand and Herzan on the High End Audio map. That is what these types of threads are about.
Sure, understood.
I think it's the claims of uniqueness that I'm having issues with. I don't think any thing I've waxed lyrical on I would claim is unique.
I also feel that reading btwn the lines in what's claimed about these footers doesn't seem any more unique than what other tweaks are trying to achieve.
Just the language seems more highly selective.
I think it's the claims of uniqueness that I'm having issues with. I don't think any thing I've waxed lyrical on I would claim is unique.
I also feel that reading btwn the lines in what's claimed about these footers doesn't seem any more unique than what other tweaks are trying to achieve.
Just the language seems more highly selective.
+1...
Criticisms are getting a little ridiculous imo, subtle semantics of more or less undefined terms and phenomenon making people angry about marketing deceptions? Srsly?
The claims aren't even "over the top" either, vibration management can lead to improved system performance to the point where additional ambient/harmonic info is reproduced. This in turn leads to an enhanced soundstage. Who hasn't experienced this? It's what many upgrades to one's system would do, otherwise it might not be much of an upgrade...
Unless you take a footer apart and compare it to other footers how would you know if it's unique or not?
Pretty much every manufacturer claims their product is the best one, or the best value at it's price. I expect most of them believe that to be true at least in certain circumstances and with certain gear...
When I do testimonial marketing on a product, I find letting users do more the talking and give their testimonials of the product a much more effective and convincing approach. All I need to do is creating a platform for that to occur and give out clear "under promised" what to expect of the product and instruction how to use it. Let those who used them do the yelling and I just walk out doing cool little steps
.Apologize for budding in other people's business. It happens a lot when I cant sleep
.Kind regards,
Tang
I haven't heard CS and I'm among the most skeptical here but Joe is already an established and accomplished manufacturer and he's not going to risk his reputation with chachkas nor would Steve go out this far on a limb for one, I would keep an open mind here and try CS before making any assumptions, while rare there are redefining products, CS could be the one.
david
david
As I, and, very likely, many of you, have come to expect from Peter I think this is a very thoughtful, sober, carefully formulated, introspective, historically accurate, measured, beautifully written piece.
When I read something like the aforementioned claims and hyperbole, I personally get interested in what/how this stuff works. Then, I wonder if it would be within my budget to even go through a trial with said gear, knowing that I may be interested in purchasing it. In the case of Center Stage, it seems obvious to me that the initial testers found them beneficial in their systems. I also realize that neither Steve nor these testers are professional “ad-copy” writers and their enthusiasm is going to leak through into the advertising. Perhaps because it’s Steve, owner of WBF, making these “outrageous claims”, we tend to be both more interested AND more picky about what’s been said. Joe L, as well, has admitted that the advertising needs reworking.
As to the effect of these devices, my reading of the claims makes me think of the situation with mild hearing loss; where the presence of low-level masking noise tends to homogenize incoming sounds by making them less distinct from the background. In the same way, ambient recorded information may not have the ability to fully express the acoustics of the recording venue when there is some low-level masking occurring. Cues that differentiate the rear-hall perspective from the front-row perspective may be reduced in their differences, producing a more singular soundfield that only partially permits the range of ambience/perspective cues.
Perhaps these footers affect a vibrational mode inherent in most all audio systems in a way that others (at least those compared by the testers) do not. Perhaps they do have the effect of removing one important type of low-level masking noise. As with most all audio choices, we vote with our ears and our wallets.
Congratulations to Steve & Joe on introducing an interesting new product! I wish great listening enjoyment to all WBF members, regardless of whether they purchase these devices or not.
Lee
As to the effect of these devices, my reading of the claims makes me think of the situation with mild hearing loss; where the presence of low-level masking noise tends to homogenize incoming sounds by making them less distinct from the background. In the same way, ambient recorded information may not have the ability to fully express the acoustics of the recording venue when there is some low-level masking occurring. Cues that differentiate the rear-hall perspective from the front-row perspective may be reduced in their differences, producing a more singular soundfield that only partially permits the range of ambience/perspective cues.
Perhaps these footers affect a vibrational mode inherent in most all audio systems in a way that others (at least those compared by the testers) do not. Perhaps they do have the effect of removing one important type of low-level masking noise. As with most all audio choices, we vote with our ears and our wallets.
Congratulations to Steve & Joe on introducing an interesting new product! I wish great listening enjoyment to all WBF members, regardless of whether they purchase these devices or not.
Lee
In this hobby everything is unique and similar - it depends on our perspective. There are tens of foot type devices. However what makes these devices unique is how they achieve it and what they achieve. No one will tell you the details about the former - an usual procedure in the high-end to protect the intellectual property of the designers - and we have to listen to evaluate the second.
I have often written - hyperbole is part of the marketing in the high-end. All manufacturers must use it, and I prefer it a lot to the often used pseudo ultra-specialized technical narrative that does not correlate with sound quality. I can see that if a manufacturer does not attract the attention of consumers he will vanish quick in a competitive market.
My only critique to this device is that I must wait to get it ... So all I can post here is blah, blah, blah ...
It's a difficult balance Marc. In my culture, we tend to be more tempered in our language. It does not mean that we are any less enthused just that we just don't want to over promise. That said, how many years did it take to get the brands I carried noticed? Sure all my customers are happy but sometimes I wonder if I have underserved the people I represent. I've been with Joe and CMS from the beginning. At one point I was the only guy here using CMS. The first guy using Masterbuilt, one of the first with TechDAS, Cor and I the only EERA users. Years. Yes these products are some of the very best I've used. I'm about to send my Da Vinci back to Larry for the full monty upgrade with some extra goodies sent in. I've mentioned KR tubes before and believe me I was literally SCOFFED at. Lo and behold Lukaz loves them and all of a sudden KR is a darling. Yet I think it is a shame every time a product is dismissed simply on the grounds of a happy owner rubbing people the wrong way. In the early days at Audio Asylum there was this one fan boy that single handedly tarnished a really good speaker company. Too many times I see people suddenly up in arms just because a product got a better review then their beloved XYZ but you know, I think that's just a normal human reaction. We've all invested a lot in our systems and it can hurt when they say our stuff hurts especially when they heard it once or twice in unfamiliar systems. It is however the world we live in so I live with it. There's a lot of politics in this industry just like every single other industry but behind every product are living, breathing people. Heck sometimes those people are total assholes but their products really are good. Believe me I know a few. There are companies I refuse to deal with and there are people I refuse to sell to....just because I have that choice, I never ever disparage them or their products however.
Joe is a very low key guy. As unassuming as anyone I know. This effect he claims with the CS is something his products have incrementally improved upon from the first time I started using his products. While I will always approach any new product with a degree of skepticism his track record alone is enough for me to at least give this a fair shake. I may be all polite here but when it comes to business, I am brutally honest with my suppliers. Their success is my success and I will tell them if their new stuff does not jive with their intended SRP. Long term relationships will always trump a quick sale.
So my friend, lighten up. You're in a very good place. Your system is singing, your home is friggin' beautiful. It's just language. Try if you want to, don't if you don't. It's all good. Steve is a doctor not an ad guy. That's not necessarily a bad thing either. If you want to see real bullshit watch any toothpaste commercial LOL
I would like to remind the readers that Center Stage will be in the Potomac Room at next month's Capitol Audiofest where it will be under all the electronics and will be featured with VAC, VSA MB. Come hear it for yourself
in this era we all want the complete answer right the hell now. all the facts......of course, the price......and a definitive judgement.....and broad truth's.
for myself; I did hear 'something' at RMAF. I had already talked to Steve about these footers. so my interest is aroused, yet I have to wait until they are in my system to comment further. I agree that the Tris' Amigo's feedback + Joe's track record does bode well for a likely positive result. and at this point this is all we can consider.
and I expect these footers to fulfill those expectations.....but it's not certain. so i'm cautiously optimistic, not skeptical. I want to experience them in my system.
all the rest is healthy 'normal for this environment' background noise and speculation both + and -
for myself; I did hear 'something' at RMAF. I had already talked to Steve about these footers. so my interest is aroused, yet I have to wait until they are in my system to comment further. I agree that the Tris' Amigo's feedback + Joe's track record does bode well for a likely positive result. and at this point this is all we can consider.
and I expect these footers to fulfill those expectations.....but it's not certain. so i'm cautiously optimistic, not skeptical. I want to experience them in my system.
all the rest is healthy 'normal for this environment' background noise and speculation both + and -
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