Buyer claims package not received; USPS says it was. What to do?

highstream

VIP/Donor
Nov 16, 2013
1,094
432
488
I'm in uncharted territory here and wonder how others have handled this kind of predicament. I've bought and sold lots of audio and video equipment privately (personal use) over the past few years, have great feedback and never had a claim that something was not received until this past week. Via Audiomart, I sold a pair of good quality power cords, shipping included, for roughly $860 after PP fees, and sent them USPS Priority Mail in a Regional Box B (not insured beyond the default). The postal tracking site shows the package delivered on the buyer's front porch this past Monday, the date expected, but he immediately claimed that package and another priority mail one also showing as delivered that day actually weren't. The carrier that day was a substitute. The area is low crime and the buyer claims neither he or his neighbors know of any thefts, and looking at Google Maps his front porch seems to be shaded from the street. I opened a USPS case immediately and told the buyer to do the same, giving him instructions. I also asked him to check with his regular carrier and with his neighbors (go door to door), and send an email if there's a homeowners or neighborhood association.

After an initial exchange of emails, in which I noted that the only documentary evidence I had thus far was that the package had been delivered, I haven't heard back directly from him (three days). A Google name search indicates that the buyer, apparently now retired, is well known and celebrated in his field, entertainment production, so on the face of it wouldn't expect him to be a scam artist (beyond an occasional dubious inquiry, I haven't run into any in all of my audio/video sales and purchases). In addition, in the past three weeks I've had two other priority mail sends and receives that have also shown as delivered when they weren't, one six days before it arrived on my doorstep, the other three days before the receiving mailroom says it actually got there. This is something I'd never seen before, and I opened cases on both of those too.

So far, I've heard back from the buyer's post office twice, once by email and once by phone message, both saying that the carrier claims he delivered the package to the guy's front porch, as the USPS site indicates. This afternoon, the buyer initiated a dispute/claim with PayPal, and the amount after fees is being held. I filed a response with the tracking number and a short summary of what I asked of him (including detailed info about the other package he says was not delivered).

What I'm wondering is how others have handled a situation like this. Thanks,
 
Last edited:

Rodney Gold

Member
Jan 29, 2014
983
11
18
Cape Town South Africa
Delivery = leaving it on someones porch?
 

DaveC

Industry Expert
Nov 16, 2014
3,899
2,141
495
Tough one, the buyer is generally responsible for purchasing insurance if it was a sale from one private individual to another, and if they don't they take the chance. For a package like that I would have requested a signature, which is enough to keep these issues from happening. I generally don't buy insurance unless I'd have a hard time with the loss. I've sold on ebay for a long time and shipped hundreds of packages as ZenWave Audio and (knock on wood!) I have only had one issue with the package getting lost out of thousands of packages. So, insurance is WAY overpriced.

At this point it's up to Paypal, I have no idea what they'll do but look into seller protection, they do have a program for protecting sellers from these issues, but it probably requires shipping with signature required. Worth checking out anyways... good luck!
 

awsmone

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2014
1,616
513
435
Canberra Australia
Tough one, the buyer is generally responsible for purchasing insurance if it was a sale from one private individual to another, and if they don't they take the chance. For a package like that I would have requested a signature, which is enough to keep these issues from happening. I generally don't buy insurance unless I'd have a hard time with the loss. I've sold on ebay for a long time and shipped hundreds of packages as ZenWave Audio and (knock on wood!) I have only had one issue with the package getting lost out of thousands of packages. So, insurance is WAY overpriced.



At this point it's up to Paypal, I have no idea what they'll do but look into seller protection, they do have a program for protecting sellers from these issues, but it probably requires shipping with signature required. Worth checking out anyways... good luck!
Great advice
 

highstream

VIP/Donor
Nov 16, 2013
1,094
432
488
Delivery = leaving it on someones porch?

Not unusual at all. It's normally done at my place too, since my front door is well off and not visible from the street, and there have been no thefts (even open garages in the complex haven't drawn any). When a signature is required with any of the services (UPS, FedEx, USPS) and I'm not going to be home, I'll leave a PO slip or a note authorizing delivery and they'll leave it on my porch, sometimes "behind" the screen door. If I ask, FedEx will sometimes even leave it inside my front door.

DaveC, my experience is that the seller has to buy the insurance when creating the shipping label. I don't usually add it, unless it's something of considerable value or the buyer asks. Some sellers have added it on my purchases or, more often, they go for signature required, even if I tell them it's not necessary. I am now going to be very careful and ask every time.

Concerning seller protection, it was send money for goods and services and so was eligible, however I'm seeing now that confirmed signature is required on amounts above $750+. Was not aware of it before and will have to see what PP decides. Knowing this will certainly change how I do things. thanks,
 
Last edited:

asiufy

Industry Expert/VIP Donor
Jul 8, 2011
3,711
723
1,200
San Diego, CA
almaaudio.com
For more expensive stuff, I usually send insured AND with "signature required", so no "front/back porch" deliveries allowed.
 

RogerD

VIP/Donor
May 23, 2010
3,734
318
565
BiggestLittleCity
As a seller I always purchase the insurance and charge the buyer or pay it myself. Asking for a signed receipt is another good idea...Murphy's law. I hope it works out,since you did have a tracking number and it shows delivery PayPal should side with you.I always thought having insurance especially for over 500.00 puts the monkey on the carriers back. Good luck.
 

DaveC

Industry Expert
Nov 16, 2014
3,899
2,141
495
DaveC, my experience is that the seller has to buy the insurance when creating the shipping label. I don't usually add it, unless it's something of considerable value or the buyer asks. Some sellers have added it on my purchases or, more often, they go for signature required, even if I tell them it's not necessary. I am now going to be very careful and ask every time.

That's true, and unless the seller has a clearly stated policy regarding not being responsible for lost packages it might be on the seller. I don't know, as a retailer I don't bother the customer with it, I either self-insure or buy insurance if the value is very high. I offer free shipping, it just makes it easier. I'll be interested to see what paypal decides, it might be a case of both buyer and seller protection being valid at the same time. Unfortunately in this case the lack of signature is going to be an issue.
 

adyc

VIP/Donor
Jan 5, 2013
873
399
973
Let say in this case someone did stole the package from the front porch. Who will be responsible for the loss? Buyer or seller?
 

highstream

VIP/Donor
Nov 16, 2013
1,094
432
488
Let say in this case someone did stole the package from the front porch. Who will be responsible for the loss? Buyer or seller?

My assumption is that once it's delivered, it's legally considered in the buyer's possession. In this case, I asked the buyer if his home insurance covered theft, but he never responded.

Concerning insurance, in most cases I see it as useful where damage to the package is both reasonably possible and would affect the contents, such as with speakers or large, expensive electronics. With something like cables/cords or smaller electronics with lots of packing material, damage is very unlikely to be an issue, while a signature assures delivery when there's worry. I do note, though, that I've never had any serious box damage with USPS or FedEx, only UPS, at least with audio gear related shipments. And aside from the recent priority mail incidents, the only lost USPS packages I've had, a couple of times in two decades, were small items eventually found in the bottom of a distribution center's mail bag.
 

highstream

VIP/Donor
Nov 16, 2013
1,094
432
488
Looks like I'm getting screwed on this one. Package still not found. After local investigation, twice, USPS says it was delivered to buyer's porch. Buyer filed dispute with PayPal and won because signature is required as proof at $750 or more; USPS posting of delivery is not enough. Buyer got everything back (nearly $900). I've filed a lost/theft case with USPS. Will see what happens. But likely hard lesson in using PP.
 

GaryProtein

VIP/Donor
Jul 25, 2012
2,542
31
385
NY
ALWAYS require an adult signature on delivery.

Leaving something on the porch is not acceptable.

Pay the extra few dollars for the signature when shipping.

In the past every package was signed for. If you weren't home, you didn't get the package. The delivery company had to return another day or the recipient had to sign a UPS card stating the package could be left, but not any more. Now you have to purchase the option for a signature.
 

highstream

VIP/Donor
Nov 16, 2013
1,094
432
488
How many packages USPS with tracking have you lost? Me, my last one was in 1998. If this one had been $749.99, I would have been clear with PP. Now I know.
 

DaveC

Industry Expert
Nov 16, 2014
3,899
2,141
495
Ugh, sorry to hear. I was thinking the signature was going to be the issue, at least now you know...

Unless you bought additional insurance the theft case might only pay $50.

Also, for larger packages FedEx is much cheaper.
 

highstream

VIP/Donor
Nov 16, 2013
1,094
432
488
Ugh, sorry to hear. I was thinking the signature was going to be the issue, at least now you know...

Unless you bought additional insurance the theft case might only pay $50.

Also, for larger packages FedEx is much cheaper.

Yes, for larger packages, which this wasn't. I use Regional Box A & B a lot because when applicable they are the cheapest at mid size. While I can't know from 1500 miles away what really happened, I suspect the substitute carrier screwed up this one. Same thing apparently happened three weeks earlier with a package to me that USPS marked as delivered; it's likely the sub that week put the parcel locker key in the wrong box. In my case there was a condo association to send out an email, but for the guy in Tustin it's a neighborhood, tho walled (no gate).
 

C.A.P

Well-Known Member
Apr 23, 2010
139
17
363
so You had NO signature at delivery ? If you did and it was JUST left there then there is a problem! At my post office if you insure anything over a certain amount its automatically a signed delivery.. I OPT for it EVERY time as I have had buyers request that I dont and I tell them its INSURANCE for me and you as it CANT be delivered unless someone signs and there is proof of delivery.. That being said I have had some damaged goods that were delivered and I took pics and they paid in a week

I once had a $400 check show up to me 9 months later than sent ! Better late than never I guess
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing