My biggest dilemmas, hardest set of decisions, greatest potential opportunities

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
14,609
5,415
1,278
E. England
I thought Qobuz was in receivership?
 

wisnon

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2011
3,525
635
1,200
Tidal app is better than Tidal/Roon at finding all the music on Tidal.

I have not tried it yet, but I hear that SQ of Tidal app is NOT as good as Tidal/Roon to HQP native rate! This is even as Roon can only do first Software unforld and Tidal app can do 1st and 2nd unfold.
 

the sound of Tao

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2014
3,620
4,839
940
I thought Qobuz was in receivership?
I still buy a fair bit of music as a download from Qobuz... they have been trading through receivership for a while now so I wouldn't sign on for Qobuz for life (if they had it). Great library of music tho so I really hope they trade out of it and stay around. Especially fine classical and jazz library plus plenty other genres as well. Great labels with higher fidelity in recordings as well.
 

asiufy

Industry Expert/VIP Donor
Jul 8, 2011
3,711
723
1,200
San Diego, CA
almaaudio.com
Tidal app is better than Tidal/Roon at finding all the music on Tidal.

I strongly disagree with this. Roon/Tidal beats the Tidal app any day. The app is utilitarian at best.
I'd start with the Tidal app just to get a feel for what's out there in terms of catalog, but don't judge the user experience by the app interface alone.

Oh, and I agree Qobuz has an excepcional library, very Euro-centric, with lots of modern jazz and classical music. A lot of those european artists/releases/labels don't get much airplay in the US at all...
 

the sound of Tao

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2014
3,620
4,839
940
+1 Alex, Tidal is easily better sq via Roon than with the Tidal app for sure. All the different players like Amarra and HQ player bring their own character to the sound. Tidal through Audirvana sounds different again to Roon (and is very good).

But it's the way that Roon helps you curate your listening that adds a whole other level to the experience of putting on your system whether to discover music that's new and reinvigorating or just to rediscover music you already have but perhaps hadn't thought about in a long time. The way it links music in style and genre when you let it DJ for you from your collection and then also from instantly surfing the big world of music is virtually seamless, engaging, enjoyable and enriching.

I wouldn't buy any server or transport that wasn't Roon ready. There is no other player system like it. Roon/Tidal/Qobuz combo is on my top 5 best ever things in audio list... but mostly because of what Roon can bring to the listening equation.

It gives it a unique advantage to any format that can integrate it. For people who love music over any other sonic attribute it may well just be the ultimate audiophile real deal.
 
Last edited:

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
14,609
5,415
1,278
E. England
I remain a bit skeptical/unsure whether Tidal/Roon is for me.
I was at Blue58 today, loving his current iteration of SGM with his current filter of choice and taking in his somewhat more linear transparent room acoustics.
I requested 3 choices.
John Cameron film soundtrack composer. Tidal didn't have a big component of his work, the 7 cd collection of theme music to 70s tv show "The Protectors".
The album I chose, theme to 1972 schlockfest "Psychomania" sounded like it was recorded in a shoebox (no slight on Barry's sound, this was purely the Tidal version), a LOT worse than the cd version I know v well, and even the Blu Ray.
Then I picked some Steve Morse, and the version presented was sourced from an MP3. You what?!
And finally some alt/grunge/faintly proggy Kings X, but nothing at all on Tidal.
Plenty of great stuff for me to listen to chosen by Barry, but I remain continually unsure whether Tidal is really for me w my love of prog, fusion, obscure soundtracks etc.
Yet the word from Tao, Asiufy etc is how Tidal/Roon has changed their lives re discovery/curation etc. I'm not yet feeling the potential promise for me personally.
 

Rodney Gold

Member
Jan 29, 2014
983
11
18
Cape Town South Africa
I have compared tidal to local rips and local rips to the same track played on a cd transport and there is no difference between them...what you get from tidal is what you get off redbook cd...
Roon and tidal changed my music life as well... from being stuck in a rut to exploring new artists , genres etc etc.
There is some music that you cant find on tidal...but there is a mountain you can
The $20 a month for tidal and the $100 a year for Roon is mickey mouse money compared to what most of us here spend on hifi
 

asiufy

Industry Expert/VIP Donor
Jul 8, 2011
3,711
723
1,200
San Diego, CA
almaaudio.com
Yes, if you have a carefully picked CD collection, the versions on Tidal are not going to be the best, and sometimes, shockingly worse. One of our favourite demo tracks, Bozzio/Levins/Stevens "Duende", is sourced from an MP3 on Tidal!

But that's beside the point, since the intention here is not to use Tidal as a replacement, but as an add-on. As such, searching for music on Tidal you already have is pretty pointless, IMHO. That's why the Roon/Tidal combination is powerful, since you can have your own files + Tidal's in one view.

As with anything, you can bend the facts to prove anything. If you want to think Tidal won't have the music you want, I'm sure you'll find 2 or 3 others, maybe even more, that Tidal won't have. But it doesn't take long to realize that there's A LOT more music on Tidal that you can ever grasp in one lifetime, and that's only sticking with the older stuff...

Just to give you some examples in one very strict genre, German prog/krautrock:

Embryo: https://tidal.com/artist/32185
Eloy: https://tidal.com/artist/11338
Nektar: https://tidal.com/artist/3964001
Grobschnitt: https://tidal.com/artist/3603387
Novalis: https://tidal.com/artist/3711025
Frumpy: https://tidal.com/artist/3679086
Jane: https://tidal.com/artist/31864
Anyone's Daughter: https://tidal.com/artist/4551659
Neu!: https://tidal.com/artist/11089
Faust: https://tidal.com/artist/3514623

Back when I first discovered this stuff, it was all shots in the dark, buying expensive original LPs from catalogs, or japanese import CDs. Plus postage. Plus the wait. Now, for anybody to get into this whole genre, all you need is a $20 subscription. That's why I can't really understand why anyone would deprive themselves of this experience, if they're into learning and listening to new, different music. Sound quality takes a backseat when you have that much at your fingertips. Once you zero in on the stuff you like, you go in search of better sound quality, be them original vinyl, downloads, CDs, etc.
 

the sound of Tao

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2014
3,620
4,839
940
Marc, Whether the music on Tidal and Qobuz floats our boats is just going to be about preference but Roon is swimming and surfing the ocean of the music itself no matter how you have procured it. I am not necessarily trying to convince you of anything tho as we are all different beasties. Go with whatever is good for you for sure, just because I love it as a way means little if it's not what you want. There are no rights or bests IMHO.
 

jeromelang

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2011
433
66
935
The very cheap yamaha wxc-50 streamer empties out residual playback memory before playing subsequent tracks. Thats why the sound always stay spacious and vibrant.

For precisely the same issue, thats why pc-controlled digitally playback which does not emptied out accumulated logged memories should be avoided.

Because of renovations at home, (and so much freaking dust - like a war zone!!!) i have had to shift some of the gears from living room into the bedroom system. This is the first time that i get to have the Yamaha WXC-50 Streamer pitted directly against the EMM Labs TSDX/DAC2X combi, and I'm telling - the Emmy is embarrassed ($30k vs $399)!!!??!!

This yammy thing is that bloody good.



I'm trying out the hifi version of Tidal for 30 days. Searching for music is a piece of cake. The Yammy has an intuitive MusicCast Controller app running on my handphone that duplicate much of the Tidal app, and since it also puts me in command of other streaming media, internet radio, streaming of dsd/pcm files, i use that instead of the Tidal app. Digital to analogue conversion is done with an ESS Sabre dac, and i run its analog via a pair Straightwire Virtuoso rca cable to the Pass Labs XP-20/X350/Sony SS-M9ED listening system.



Here's a close up of the yammy. I told you it was dusty...

As i mentioned earlier this yammy empties out playback memory prior to playing subsequent tracks so music always stay fresh, dynamic and opened. If i would to repeat the same song that is currently playing, then I'll perceive a very noticeable collaspe of the soundstaging and curtailing of dynamics and frequency extension at either ends. But if i just select s piece of music, and let it play without interference, then music will just continue at its nimble pace with very enjoyable sense of music flow - a feat nearly every digital playback device (including the emmy combi here) have problem with. For the emmy, i could only get around that problem by shutting them down to empty out its memory holding while the disc is removed, then powering up in very strict sequence (the transport first and then the dac) prior to playing a disc. Only by doing this, then can the emmy match the yammy in soundstaging projection, airiness, dynamic slam, frequency extension and sense of musical ease.

That a $399 thing that does this so well is freaking craziness. That the Yamaha chief engineer (whom i spoke with in June this year), and he had no idea about the effect of emptying residual playback memory is simply freaking laughable. Although to his credit he mentioned that they had always knew that optical disc players/transports can sound very different depending on how and what tracking cueing methods was used, but they could never figured out why. Yet, they had unwittingly created a sonic masterpiece, albeit at a very cheap cost, in a wireless streamer that gets around this problem without having the fuss of power refreshing chore with optical disc transports.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
14,609
5,415
1,278
E. England
Alex and Tao, I just need to investigate further when I get things up and running.
---
Jerome, I'm pretty sure I'm going to need Roon, so this may preclude the Yamaha.
 

Blue58

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2013
890
675
1,155
London, UK
+100 Asiufy.
Marc tends to search for known, obscure items, rather than emersing himself into the unknown. Perhaps using YouTube as a search tool, as has been suggested, would benefit him also.
Though I do wish he'd stop evaluating his and my system with some of the poorly produced, I'll say it, dreck, from the 70s.:rolleyes:
Cheers for the beers!
Blue58
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
14,609
5,415
1,278
E. England
Sorry to torture you Barry, both in my multiple fence sitting choices re streaming (which only results in multiple splinters in my arse LOL), and my choice of music at your place.
Maybe I'm missing the point on Tidal/Roon searches. Maybe I need to select a genre and let the system make the musical choices. I really don't know because I really don't know Tidal/Roon.
---
Guys, I know it looks like I'm looking for any reason not to commit. I'm sorry if I'm giving this impression because it isn't the truth. I guess I'm still not familiar with what Roon can do for opening up vistas of investigation to fully appreciate it. Maybe the proof of the pudding will be in the eating when I start running it.
So unlike Peter A and Al M who are no nearer going in this direction for their own uses, I really am after deciding on streamer and dac. Now I just need to leap...
 
Last edited:

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,391
4,988
978
Switzerland
Sorry to torture you Barry, both in my multiple fence sitting choices re streaming (which only results in multiple splinters in my arse LOL), and my choice of music at your place.
Maybe I'm missing the point on Tidal/Roon searches. Maybe I need to select a genre and let the system make the musical choices. I really don't know because I really don't know Tidal/Roon.
---
Guys, I know it looks like I'm looking for any reason not to commit. I'm sorry if I'm giving this impression because it isn't the truth. I guess I'm still not familiar with what Roon can do for opening up vistas of investigation to fully appreciate it. Maybe the proof of the pudding will be in the eating when I start running it.
So unlike Peter A and Al M who are no nearer going in this direction for their own uses, I really am after deciding on streamer and dac. Now I just need to leap...

My advice is get a $50 google chromecast and either Spotify or YouTube and see what new music you find that you like as an experiment.

I am a lot like you with Vinyl and cd and a big interest in prog and fusion jazz. AND no computer audio for now. I got this chromecast from a friend and I run optical out to my DAC. I just run you tube files . Sound quality is realitvely poor but it is fine for background or my wife to play her pop music.

I am now considering one of two approaches: 1) A streamer + Tidal like this Yamaha or 2) building my own server with ROCK + Roon/tidal. I have found I can build a fanless I7 based PC with linear PSU for under $2k! This should or be competitive with the SGM or Lampi Superkomputer for a fraction of the cost. It will be dedicated only to music as ROCK makes it so.

First I will try the Yammy though I think...at least for the casual downstairs system.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
14,609
5,415
1,278
E. England
Got you Brad, but hence this merry go round continues.
There is no point having substandard sound out of a computer, poor user interface etc, which likely could result, this will put me off computer audio for life.
The number of demos I've been to where all the time is taken w sorting computer glitches, slow speed, is depressing.
Similarly I do know there must be a ton of music out there I won't easily find on cd or lp, I don't want to hear it at poor quality.
Hence my likelihood to split my decision down the middle.
Tidal/Roon for immediate access to the lot, and ability to laterally investigate.
The Terminator dac I'm looking at for excellent SQ w the Innuos Zenith for provenance, engineering and dummy user friendliness.
I just don't remain confident any hair shirt laptop/non Roon/basic gear combination will be easy to use, glitch free or good to listen to.
Btw, you might want to consider whether your intended solution really is the best way to maximise the joys of Kassandra dac, if you feel the Kass plus DIY computer will beat a GG or Pacific off SK, or MSB off SGM, you may be in for a v unpleasant suprise.
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,391
4,988
978
Switzerland
Got you Brad, but hence this merry go round continues.
There is no point having substandard sound out of a computer, poor user interface etc, which likely could result, this will put me off computer audio for life.
The number of demos I've been to where all the time is taken w sorting computer glitches, slow speed, is depressing.
Similarly I do know there must be a ton of music out there I won't easily find on cd or lp, I don't want to hear it at poor quality.
Hence my likelihood to split my decision down the middle.
Tidal/Roon for immediate access to the lot, and ability to laterally investigate.
The Terminator dac I'm looking at for excellent SQ w the Innuos Zenith for provenance, engineering and dummy user friendliness.
I just don't remain confident any hair shirt laptop/non Roon/basic gear combination will be easy to use, glitch free or good to listen to.
Btw, you might want to consider whether your intended solution really is the best way to maximise the joys of Kassandra dac, if you feel the Kass plus DIY computer will beat a GG or Pacific off SK, or MSB off SGM, you may be in for a v unpleasant suprise.

I don't really care if it will "beat" those others. Kassandra will be my last DAC (I already had the Monarchy for more than 10 years). What I plan to do will work very well at the very least.

What you should do at minimum is get a cheap streamer to see if the music choices are sufficient to make you want a better solution...if not then think about just a better transport and DAC to optimize what you have already in cds. If you think your current CD player is up to the level of the better DACs you might be in for an unpleasant surprise ;-).
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,391
4,988
978
Switzerland
Got you Brad, but hence this merry go round continues.
There is no point having substandard sound out of a computer, poor user interface etc, which likely could result, this will put me off computer audio for life.
The number of demos I've been to where all the time is taken w sorting computer glitches, slow speed, is depressing.
Similarly I do know there must be a ton of music out there I won't easily find on cd or lp, I don't want to hear it at poor quality.
Hence my likelihood to split my decision down the middle.
Tidal/Roon for immediate access to the lot, and ability to laterally investigate.
The Terminator dac I'm looking at for excellent SQ w the Innuos Zenith for provenance, engineering and dummy user friendliness.
I just don't remain confident any hair shirt laptop/non Roon/basic gear combination will be easy to use, glitch free or good to listen to.
Btw, you might want to consider whether your intended solution really is the best way to maximise the joys of Kassandra dac, if you feel the Kass plus DIY computer will beat a GG or Pacific off SK, or MSB off SGM, you may be in for a v unpleasant suprise.

A friend of mine runs Jriver with Jplay and fiddlizer off his Laptop with USB out to a Kassandra and that already sounds phenomenal...so much so that my friend has no interest in a standalone computer. If you have a laptop then get a great DAC and go this route...All you need is software in addition. I think Rodney proposed something similar...of course Roon/tidal works this way too.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
14,609
5,415
1,278
E. England
You haven't heard the Eera, so you can't really comment.
I really don't want this thread to degenerate into another "buy a more expensive gear" direction.
I'll side w JackD201. It took him massive efforts to sort his room, power grid, tricked out Aurender W10, top of the range TotalDac, MasterBuilt cables, for his streaming to have the measure of his (and my) Eera Tentation cdp.
Only from 256dsd does his streaming have the beating of CDs out of the Eera, and even then the impvt is not massive.
All this at 5x the cost of the €10k Eera.
So thanks, I'll pass on the more expensive transport and dac advice and investigate a reasonable balance on streamer/dac.
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,391
4,988
978
Switzerland
You haven't heard the Eera, so you can't really comment.

I have heard an Eera CD player quite a long time ago. I merely used the same language as you describing a, as yet to be made, music server and you felt free to comment about how it will sound. I know you are defensive of the Eera but what I said is no more controversial than what you said.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
14,609
5,415
1,278
E. England
The Eera is both blessing and curse.
It's totally made me reappraise my appreciation of digital, giving me as close to analog convergence as I'm likely to get at sane prices (MSB Select 3 box and Kassandra Ref being out of my range as the pricey dacs doing the same tricks for their respective owners).
At the same time it's set an unfairly high bar for a streamer/dac to have to try and jump.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing