My biggest dilemmas, hardest set of decisions, greatest potential opportunities

spiritofmusic

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I thought of putting this thread in Digital forum, Computer Audio in particular, but decided General Discussions, because I'd like to get as many takes as possible.
As I've been boring everyone w comments on epiphanies thick and fast w the new room, and Ron's lovely report on my sound, this has led to a decision I'd never have thought I'd have made as a died in the wool vinylphile.
In effect putting what's v likely to be my last major component upgrade budget into digital, and specifically computer audio ie new dac and streamer/server, anything up to a max of £20k.
Despite the great temptation to go to the next level in my analog, I've agonised long and hard about this, and am strongly concluding to
1- open up my musical universe w Tidal/Roon
2- at same time break my reticence to use computer audio
There are reasons not to do this
1- most of my fave music ie prog, fusion, in lots of ways still best served on cd and lp, eg King Crimson era multi cd boxsets etc, Steve Wilson remasters, tons of vault finds on cd collections
2- my current cdp is so good here, I'm wary I'll find even a close match w streamer/dac
3- majority of my music is on lp, a tt/arm upgrade gives 2/3 of my library a vitamin shot in one spend
4- I really have ZERO idea how much new music I'll really take to on Tidal
---
So these are some of my thoughts, aims and fears.
And my other main concern is I really have no idea how much the role of the streamer/server plays in SQ terms.
I've heard awful metallic tinged streamed digititis with Windows laptop that doesn't load, breaks down, and at the other end, superb analog flow from SGM, w no service issues.
I have a dac in mind that for no money in high end terms promises a lot re tone density and palpable texture (my red lines in digital), but on the streamer side there is no consensus, from those like Rodney Gold who are happy to use laptop only, to those like Blue58 and M Lavigne who swear by SGM, and many who've stuck to entry level Auralic Aries.
Just casting for thoughts, opinions, not especially specific qs answered.
If I have a burning q, it's does one really have to spend big on streamer/server to get that performance boost, so my Tidal doesn't end up the poor relation of my analog and cd collection.
 

Al M.

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From what I have heard thus far with my own ears, a good CD transport is hard to beat. I have heard carefully implemented computer audio that is inferior in comparison: more grain, less resolution (and that was in direct comparison with my own CD transport that costs less than $ 2K).

If people tell you that you don't have to spend a good amount of money on computer audio, I would simply not believe them. I personally do not plan to go into computer audio, but if I were to do so, I would go at the very least with a Baetis server/streamer of $ 8K (their middle model) with AES/EBU output to my DAC. I would not plan to even bother trying less advanced options of less cost. Not worth my time.

My opinion. Let others flame away.
 

asiufy

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Marc,

You can get Tidal right now, and search/browse its library. You'll be amazed at what's out there. You don't need a server :) A computador/tablet/phone will suffice. Of course, Tidal through Roon is a far superior experience, but if you just want to peruse, the Tidal app itself (or the website) is not that bad.

Just to give you an example... Right now I'm listening to one of my favourite guitarrists, Tisziji Muñoz. His CDs are hard to find, as they're mostly done through his own label, and lots are OOP. I only have a handful of albums, bbut Tidal has 20+ of his CDs, so I'm having a field day right now going through them :)
 

cjfrbw

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Apr 20, 2010
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I know I am going to have to turn in my audiophile credentials, but I actually enjoy listening to a bunch of compressed music (128kbs to 256kbs) that I play from my ungarnished mac mini over Airplay to the Yamaha Aventage receiver with Sabre dacs.

Even using Stax headphones, I can get an enjoyable experience. Digital is pretty good nowadays, not nearly so much to complain about as in the past.
 

Rodney Gold

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The dac is worthy of spend , the server is not.
As i said before , start off simple with a laptop connected to the DAC to dip your toes in the water
 

awsmone

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Apr 6, 2014
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The dac is worthy of spend , the server is not.
As i said before , start off simple with a laptop connected to the DAC to dip your toes in the water

+1

My main concern is the connection between the computer to dac is not mature

Ethernet seems better but much more computer fiddly for computer novice like you

USB leaves a lot to be desired

I suspect you will get more from simple computer and an good interface like sotm ultra than a kick ass server at a fraction of the price

I saw a beautiful little system in Signapore

SSD NAS simple fanless computer and lh labs dac

This may appeal to you as the lh labs doesn’t upsample so plays rbcd at 44.1

Just my 2 cents
 

Al M.

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My main concern is the connection between the computer to dac is not mature

Ethernet seems better but much more computer fiddly for computer novice like you

USB leaves a lot to be desired

I suspect you will get more from simple computer and an good interface like sotm ultra than a kick ass server at a fraction of the price

Interface appears to be one of the main problems, yes. Which is why I mentioned a server specifically built around an AES/EBU output. But I don't think the noise and other issues are just related to the interface. I suspect the problems go deeper. Hence my belief that computer audio is best served with a sophisticated, dedicated server/streamer, rather than with a simple computer that is not specifically designed for high-end audio.
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Al, despite Rodney extolling his laptop only/no server solution, I'm not going to follow his advice.
I've been to too many installs where things crash, and more time is spent booting and rebooting the computer to make me fall in love all over again w setting up a cart correctly LOL.
And despite advice from you to consider Baetis, Sound Of Tao recommending SOtM, others extolling Antipodes and Pink Faun, I'm only going to consider those w proper UK distribution, user friendly interface, excellent customer relations, solid engineering credentials, and Roon capability. So yr server idea, and these just mentioned, all out.
No Roon rules out Aurender, but rules in Auralic, Innuous, Computer Audio Design CAD and SGM.
And fascinatingly, these 4 brands are at interesting price points on the spectrum.
Auralic Aries Mini sub £1k, Aries £1.5k, Innuous Zen sub £2k, Zenith/Zenith SE £2.5/up to £6k, CAD £8-9k, SGM £16k.
With a shortlist in mind, my biggest qs centre on just what do you REALLY get going up in price?
I know the SGM very well and it ticks every box on the audio front, but how great is the shortfall going all the way to Aries Mini?
For me, uber SQ is not paramount, if it was SGM would be my only go-to, and if I can get a £10k total spend solution of my dac of choice (£4K) w Innuous Zenith SE sounding very decent, competitive w my analog and exemplary RBCD, passing my Red Lines on tone density and palpable texture, and I'm drawn to listen to it w no overriding inhibitions, and I find so much more new music via Tidal/Roon, I'll be as pleased as punch.
But would I get that w the Aries Mini or standard Aries too?
Or are there major shortcomings in SQ to be had at this price point.
And of course, Roon Nucleus almost upon us...
I just cannot figure heirarchy of performance in servers, hence this thread.
---
Al, my opinions all predicated on the fact I'm a vinyl man first and foremost, RBCD a smidgeon behind.
Streaming means I keep my tt and cdp, I still buy lps and cds, but I find new music on Tidal/Roon and have playback that if maybe not as supremely good as my current analog and digital setups, is plenty good in its own right, and naturally draws me to listen to it and want to discover new music.
Maybe at a point where I have a few hundred albums that are essential listens that I can't find on physical media I'll go down the crazy audiophile maxxing out route for servers/dacs.
But just for now, drawing me in more and more over time is what I want from a streamer/dac choice.
 
Last edited:

Al M.

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Al, despite Rodney extolling his laptop only/no server solution, I'm not going to follow his advice.
I've been to too many installs where things crash, and more time is spent booting and rebooting the computer to make me fall in love all over again w setting up a cart correctly LOL.
And despite advice from you to consider Baetis, Sound Of Tao recommending SOtM, others extolling Antipodes and Pink Faun, I'm only going to consider those w proper UK distribution, user friendly interface, excellent customer relations, solid engineering credentials, and Roon capability. So yr server idea, and these just mentioned, all out.

That's fine. I only want to mention that Roon has been reported to have sound quality problems of its own. I cannot judge that, but will mention that the file server system that I heard, with its sonic problems, ran on Roon.
 

spiritofmusic

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Al, that's the first I've heard of Roon issues.
Tidal/Roon is the ONLY reason I'm going streaming.
 

Rodney Gold

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The only time Roon would have any effect on SQ is if you were implementing its DSP engine
 

microstrip

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Al, that's the first I've heard of Roon issues.
Tidal/Roon is the ONLY reason I'm going streaming.

In my case most Roon issues were due to improper configuration of basic parameters, mostly due to previous installations with other types of hardware. If your DAC is a Roon Endpoint, installation in a Windows machine in standard configuration is simple. But once you start feeling an expert the disaster can approach ...

After spoiling it all once I formatted the disk and reinstalled Windows and Roon - no changes since them, except for a Roon upgrade!
 

DaveC

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I'm waiting on more implementations of the new ESS DAC chip, partially because the connection to the data will hopefully be less critical and the server/streamer/etc setup can be simpler and still sound good.

And the Ayre QX-5 would be at the top of my list for features, I have not heard it yet...

https://www.ayre.com/qx5.htm
 

spiritofmusic

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I'm going to take a punt on my mystery dac (will reveal all when I make decision to buy it shortly) and something like Aries or Innuos Zenith.
User reports on the dac are all really favourable and a high line review is extremely promising in terms of what I look for in digital sound.
I've decided not to get too lathered up about streamers.
SGM can wait for the day I get as convinced about streaming as I have currently about digital (three decades to find a cdp I love, and 6 months in the new room to throw all my anti digital biases out the window, so I can be patient re charms of SGM).
Reports from the Indulgence Show just on in London have been v positive about the Innuos Zenith, commenting on richness of tone and solidity of texture (just my cup of tea), and it's price/user friendliness/proper engineering provenance (as opposed to so many streamers that seem cobbled together, no matter how good they sound), is speaking to me.
Throw my favourite Sablon cables into the mix, SR B fuses in both dac and streamer, and chance to place them on my Symposium rack (w my cdp and preamp going on Stacores), and I'm feeling confident even if I don't immediately reach the magic of my Eera cdp and analog, I'll be quite a way twds it (word from JackD201 that extreme attention to power/grid in streaming solutions is abs critical to get his Aurender W20 and TotalDac to match and begin to exceed our Eeras, and this attention I've sweated on and succeeded at), and then I can fret less and begin to get what is so special about Tidal/Roon.
 

KeithR

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Marc -

So...
1) you have no hi res
2) you have a large analog system/collection

The SGM is really only justified for hi res collections. However, the MSB Reference Dac is such leaps and bounds above everything i've heard and sounds within a whisper of analog and will completely knock your socks off in digital sound (and is completely upgradeable). Yes, I really did contemplate ditching my Brinkmann Bardo/10.5/47 Labs setup for one. I have an analog fried with 4 TTs in 2 systems who is chomping at the bit about getting one (and he has an expensive, famous competitor right now and has never been complementary to digital at all). So I'd get an Innuous/Nucleus and run Roon/Tidal before spending 15k on a server and instead put the $ into the MSB.

You will get better bang for your buck with MSB/Roon/Tidal. MSB will have a Roon/MQA renderer soon, so its an even simpler setup. That said, I'm not sure MSB prices across the pond.
 

Ron Resnick

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Marc,

Why not start super simple with Spotify and spend about US$300 to buy a Sonos Connect which allows you to play Spotify through your existing stereo system? I connected the Sonus Connect to my Wi-Fi system myself, so if I can do it, I guarantee you can do it. Then you connect the left and right output RCA jacks of the Sonos Connect device to a left and right input of your pre-amp, and you're done.

You can find all kinds of old music and new music on Spotify. Sonus Connect is a very user-friendly small box, and the Spotify app is a very user friendly thing, and for me Spotify has been a great introduction to the concept of searching for music and streaming.

And best of all this set-up does not violate my prohibition on connecting a computer to my stereo.

As I explained to Greg Beron last night having all of my favourite songs found over the course of my entire life on one list in one convenient place (Spotify) has been a true revelation.
 

asiufy

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As I explained to Greg Beron last night having all of my favourite songs found over the course of my entire life on one list in one convenient place (Spotify) has been a true revelation.

+1!

This is the reason why I've been trying to get people to give Tidal/streaming a chance. It IS a revelation.

Everything Ron has written about Spotify applies to Tidal, and even more so, as it provides better quality audio, as well as some hires in the form of MQA.

Costs $20/month, and you can fiddle with it on your phone, iPad or a computer, none of which have to be attached to your stereo.

Add Roon to the mix, and minds will be blown exponentially.

If you're going to do cheap and cheerful, I'd sooner do an Auralic Aries or a Bluesound to my stereo than a standalone Sonos... But that's just me...
 

jeromelang

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The very cheap yamaha wxc-50 streamer empties out residual playback memory before playing subsequent tracks. Thats why the sound always stay spacious and vibrant.

For precisely the same issue, thats why pc-controlled digitally playback which does not emptied out accumulated logged memories should be avoided.
 

awsmone

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Apr 6, 2014
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I'm going to take a punt on my mystery dac (will reveal all when I make decision to buy it shortly) and something like Aries or Innuos Zenith.
User reports on the dac are all really favourable and a high line review is extremely promising in terms of what I look for in digital sound.
I've decided not to get too lathered up about streamers.
SGM can wait for the day I get as convinced about streaming as I have currently about digital (three decades to find a cdp I love, and 6 months in the new room to throw all my anti digital biases out the window, so I can be patient re charms of SGM).
Reports from the Indulgence Show just on in London have been v positive about the Innuos Zenith, commenting on richness of tone and solidity of texture (just my cup of tea), and it's price/user friendliness/proper engineering provenance (as opposed to so many streamers that seem cobbled together, no matter how good they sound), is speaking to me.
Throw my favourite Sablon cables into the mix, SR B fuses in both dac and streamer, and chance to place them on my Symposium rack (w my cdp and preamp going on Stacores), and I'm feeling confident even if I don't immediately reach the magic of my Eera cdp and analog, I'll be quite a way twds it (word from JackD201 that extreme attention to power/grid in streaming solutions is abs critical to get his Aurender W20 and TotalDac to match and begin to exceed our Eeras, and this attention I've sweated on and succeeded at), and then I can fret less and begin to get what is so special about Tidal/Roon.

I agree that the Innous Zenith ticks all your boxes, and is built to audiophile standards and is very user friendly

It’s an interesting idea to explore new music via tidal
Something I haven’t really considered does it have much classical ?
 

the sound of Tao

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Jul 18, 2014
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Tidal is not strong on classical... has some but Qobuz plus Tidal covers a lot of the total genre territory that is music.

Qobuz is much more diversified and also has some great jazz, old and current and all sorts of varying treasures but Tidal is good if you want to stay connected with where music is at today.

Small price to pay for a seeming infinite world of musical choice. Just needs Roon to then help further curate it into a seamless musical experience of discovery.
 

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