I said I would never buy another Turntable...Argh !!!

spiritofmusic · Sep 24, 2017

Madfloyd, it appears not.
It's about the minimum needed to play an lp w near zero noise.
Plinth and platter to outlast the human race.
Air to allow music to float free of the grooves.
Motor to bring the inert to life.
And that's it.
All the rest is mere adornment, frippery, unnecessary complication.

MadFloyd · Sep 24, 2017

Thanks. Sounds good. I want one.

Mike Lavigne · Sep 24, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
Sorry if I've missed this.
Is this AS-2000 a refurbed version of an original to have better tolerances, maybe a redesigned air/vacuum pump, and the overengineered motor?
Or is it a ground up redesign using some/all parts?
If it's the former, it was, and remains, a cutting edge one-off.
Is that because this physical bearing-less air bearing was borderline impossible to get right then, so that only one certifiably crazy analog designer would truly attempt it, and none have dared since?

i'll let David address the finer points of your questions.

however; according to what i understand from David, the 800 pound Gorillas in the room are (1) the unique motor it takes to control a platter of this size and (2) the controller to get it to be steady and not hunt and be constantly correcting. much of the magic is the other-worldly inertia of the weight of the platter and plinth and the rock solid steady grounding it imparts to the music.

so just doing the air bed and machining some huge chunk of billet is the (relatively) easy part. it's just a paperweight without the appropriate motor and controller.

there are no more of these motors.

Tango · Sep 24, 2017

ddk said:
IME this tt doesn't need isolation just a solid platform to rest on

I think this super heavy hammer should already do the trick with vibration unless it is placed near towers of woofers. If it were in my room, i would just place it on a strong steel rack with a thick enougn steel plate uptop. Khun David, have you ever put a thin sheet of leather on the metal plate that you rest your Hammer on?

Kind regards,
Tang

Mike Lavigne · Sep 24, 2017

Tango said:
I think this super heavy hammer should already do the trick with vibration unless it is placed near towers of woofers. If it were in my room, i would just place it on a strong steel rack with a thick enougn steel plate uptop. Khun David, have you ever put a thin sheet of leather on the metal plate that you rest your Hammer on?

Kind regards,
Tang

even better a layer of oil or neoprene between the steel sheet and tabletop. will reduce/eliminate resonance/tension.

spiritofmusic · Sep 24, 2017

So Mike, what you're saying is that the transcendental nature of this machine is made by the motor?
That it's possible to marry high mass w an air bearing/cushion.
But that to perfect accurate speed control of the uber heavy platter w high torque not relying on feedback control is nigh on impossible?
Limitless power w fine control and no noise is unobtainable otherwise?

DaveC · Sep 24, 2017

MadFloyd said:
Thanks. Sounds good. I want one.

+1. Congrats to all!

On isolation, I'd bet it will be an advantage. Large woofers are capable of inducing resonances in extremely large and heavy objects, like concrete floor pads and entire houses. Unlike some that believe these structures to be "drains" I do not think these resonances are harmless at all and are better off isolated/damped and not allowed to feedback into our sources and electronics. I will be interested to hear how the active tables work out in the end!

Mike Lavigne · Sep 24, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
So Mike, what you're saying is that the transcendental nature of this machine is made by the motor?
That it's possible to marry high mass w an air bearing/cushion.
But that to perfect accurate speed control of the uber heavy platter w high torque not relying on feedback control is nigh on impossible?
Limitless power w fine control and no noise is unobtainable otherwise?

i'm relating my impressions from my talks with David. the whole 'extreme' high mass platter belt driven approach is new to me. so I don't want to come off as any expert here. i'm here based on what I heard. not due to me spending years investigating cause and effect of these things and knowing stuff.

real music has perfect pitch and perfect energy and drive. it's real. a very high mass platter and plinth can relate that reality better since they approach overcoming the limitations of the mechanical playback physics. but that high mass and weight require a control solution that is extremely challenging.

the higher the mass and weight of the platter/plinth the greater the reward in performance, but at exponentially greater difficulty in the motor/controller design.

spiritofmusic · Sep 24, 2017

The nearest tt I can see to this AS-2000 is the Verdier Magnum.
If you read their literature, they talk about the floor, the room, Hell, the whole HOUSE being part of the tt/playback equation.
They go so far as to advise structural engineers and architects to get involved to reinforce floor and room to deal w resonances.
And that's with Vibraplane as part of the design of the tt.
Based on this I suspect the AS-2000 may not give of its best in any room that's 1- not bombproof, and 2- not equipped w the very best isoln ie Herzan.
Whew, equal part scary, equal part limitless potential.

Steve Williams · Sep 24, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
i'm relating my impressions from my talks with David. the whole 'extreme' high mass platter belt driven approach is new to me. so I don't want to come off as any expert here. i'm here based on what I heard. not due to me spending years investigating cause and effect of these things and knowing stuff.

real music has perfect pitch and perfect energy and drive. it's real. a very high mass platter and plinth can relate that reality better since they approach overcoming the limitations of the mechanical playback physics. but that high mass and weight require a control solution that is extremely challenging.

the higher the mass and weight of the platter/plinth the greater the reward in performance, but at exponentially greater difficulty in the motor/controller design.

Having heard the AS 2 years ago at David's house I stated then it was the best TT in his arsenal of countless TT's including the AF1 which David also has. I was poo pooed at the time but what I heard was real

Having said that I am sure the newer AS2000 will be better still

This past June at the LAAS David and I happened to be together in the TechDas room where Nishikawa San was introducing the new motor to his upcoming AF Zero which is the same motor David is using for the AS TT he is building

The new motor was being run on the AF Premium and with the new uber heavy tungsten platter. Without question IMO this was the finest analog I have ever heard. The tungsten platter produced bass like I have never heard with my AF1. David commented to me a the time that his AS 2000 will sound even better because it is bigger and heavier. I've learned never to doubt David when it comes to analog as he knows what he's doing. So for me the anticipated sound of the AS2000 if better than what I heard with the same motor and a tungsten platter on an AF Premium will be a remarkable accomplishment

spiritofmusic · Sep 24, 2017

So this motor isn't in short supply of it's going on the AFZero?

DaveC · Sep 24, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
The nearest tt I can see to this AS-2000 is the Verdier Magnum.
If you read their literature, they talk about the floor, the room, Hell, the whole HOUSE being part of the tt/playback equation.
They go so far as to advise structural engineers and architects to get involved to reinforce floor and room to deal w resonances.
And that's with Vibraplane as part of the design of the tt.
Based on this I suspect the AS-2000 may not give of its best in any room that's 1- not bombproof, and 2- not equipped w the very best isoln ie Herzan.
Whew, equal part scary, equal part limitless potential.

I agree with this, the typical home seems like a poor place for a good stereo, the entire structure sings along with the music at higher SPLs even when you've attempted to isolate the speakers. If you could somehow eliminate the sound from the stereo and still hear the house singing along due to vibration and resonance I think we'd all be shocked.

microstrip · Sep 24, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
(...) however; according to what i understand from David, the 800 pound Gorillas in the room are (1) the unique motor it takes to control a platter of this size and (2) the controller to get it to be steady and not hunt and be constantly correcting.(...)

The motor and controller are really Gorillas in the room - but we have now enough details to know how they manage to control the platter, and in particular, accelerating a cylinder with such high moment of inertia and then doing it with minimal noise and uniformly. The concepts are not new - IMHO one of most critical parts in this project is the belt.

IMHO David must be congratulated for managing to master and integrate all these concepts, and above all, finding the proper people and facilities to lead such project with success. He is surely an audiophile, but also a true engineer, in the broad sense of the word.

RBFC · Sep 24, 2017

What a wonderful, vicarious experience to see you guys assembling these amazing systems!

My question: does very low frequency "rumble" in a room cause tilting of the entire apparatus such that the tonearm may not track evenly in the groove, effectively placing more force on one side of the groove during that moment of excursion? The gravitational forces that would occur are independent of the level of isolation achieved, as the whole assembly is moving as a unit. Forgive me if this is ignorant, but has anyone determined that this phenomenon has any significant effect? And, have there been any attempts to deal with this?

Lee

bonzo75 · Sep 24, 2017

microstrip said:
The motor and controller are really Gorillas in the room - but we have now enough details to know how they manage to control the platter, and in particular, accelerating a cylinder with such high moment of inertia and then doing it with minimal noise and uniformly. The concepts are not new - IMHO one of most critical parts in this project is the belt.

IMHO David must be congratulated for managing to master and integrate all these concepts, and above all, finding the proper people and facilities to lead such project with success. He is surely an audiophile, but also a true engineer, in the broad sense of the word.

+1

Ron Resnick · Sep 24, 2017

rockitman said:
Mike sums it up well. These words really got me excited...worth quoting again...at least for my benefit as I am the only one who hasn't heard AS yet but is buying one.

Originally posted by Mike Lavigne View Post

as far as trying to describe what is special and unique in the performance of this tt; it's about a couple of things I guess. first; it's noise floor is in a different realm than other turntables I have heard; likely due to the design if it's platter riding on a bed of air and it's lack of any bearing. it just has a guide built into the platter. second; the platter and plinth weight 440 pounds together, and the inertia of that heavy platter impart an authoritative energy to the music beyond description. and it requires a unique motor and controller to be able to properly deal with the weight of the platter.

these motors are 'vintage', are the significantly more able to deal with the weight of this platter than any others, and I am told there are no more of them beyond these.

there are simply no alternatives to finding this type of performance. and that is "why this turntable"..

+1

This is my reasoning also.

ALF · Sep 24, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
So this motor isn't in short supply of it's going on the AFZero?

Good catch, especially at the street price...

Cheers!
ALF

Mike Lavigne · Sep 24, 2017

ALF said:
Good catch, especially at the street price...

Cheers!
ALF

AFZero is different than AFPremium which is different than the AFOne.

for sure limited numbers for the Zero.

spiritofmusic · Sep 24, 2017

The AFZero will have loads more "tech" than the AS.
Here's betting it's loads more Moohlah than the AS too.
I know which one I'd want.

Steve Williams · Sep 24, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
AFZero is different than AFPremium which is different than the AFOne.

for sure limited numbers for the Zero.

not necessarily Mike

The difference between the AF1 and the Premium is a different controller, spindle and some bling

The AF Zero is the Premium plus the new motor and tungsten platter

Definitely limited numbers of the Zero

I said I would never buy another Turntable...Argh !!!

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