I said I would never buy another Turntable...Argh !!!

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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In a system context neutral and natural for me means that system doesn't add to or subtract from the recording and will allow the performance to come through as intended by the performer and/or engineers.

David

Sounds right. Except I’m not so sure we ever truly know what the exact performance was and what the engineers have subsequently done to it.
However, if the instruments sound realistic to the listener, then at least the aspect of the gear adding or subtracting from the equation is less a factor....which I guess you could call..neutral(ity)
 

Folsom

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Folsom, I like Keith’s sound very much!

I would say Keith's and Mike's are almost opposites.

In a system context neutral and natural for me means that system doesn't add to or subtract from the recording and will allow the performance to come through as intended by the performer and/or engineers.

David

How exactly do you figure out what that means? It isn't very easy to know what was in the head of the performer... generally speaking they request dumb stuff like nominalized volume. And I haven't really heard stereos they didn't tell me what the band or such was doing. Countless musicians listen on trash stereos as well. I think audiophile get more out of it the quality in production than the people whom make the music in a like 1,000,000:1 manner.

Having a standard of being able to readily read the differences between albums general character is still probably one of the best measure I can come up with. That and vibrato legibility are two more easily calculable distinctions to make. Outside of those it becomes a gamble due to differences in albums, which hopefully you're hearing. To me some albums sound natural because the instruments are really close to being there, and unnatural is when it's like watching one on a TV where all the cues for it being live just are not there. Sadly album to album this is one of the most inconsistent things. So you just kind of appreciate how much they give you. (the design of the engineers which may or may not have wanted it to sound like music you could experience in person)

Knowing that general character differences exist, and being able to notice them easily, tells me that a stereo is actually representing what's on the album more than any stereo that cannot do that. You're essentially getting the finest information the album has to offer, as in something easily lost since it barely exists. And when this is happening I find some things other audiophiles do not. Here's an example, I think original early pressing of CCR for a couple albums sound really good, the timbre, texture, and force while not perfect really sound a hell of a lot more like instruments than the 45rpm reissues that honestly don't have those qualities... They sound soft and wrong to me. But if a stereo can't really give you "edge" in the character, you'd never know.
 

ddk

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May 18, 2013
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How exactly do you figure out what that means? It isn't very easy to know what was in the head of the performer... generally speaking they request dumb stuff like nominalized volume. And I haven't really heard stereos they didn't tell me what the band or such was doing. Countless musicians listen on trash stereos as well. I think audiophile get more out of it the quality in production than the people whom make the music in a like 1,000,000:1 manner.

Having a standard of being able to readily read the differences between albums general character is still probably one of the best measure I can come up with. That and vibrato legibility are two more easily calculable distinctions to make. Outside of those it becomes a gamble due to differences in albums, which hopefully you're hearing. To me some albums sound natural because the instruments are really close to being there, and unnatural is when it's like watching one on a TV where all the cues for it being live just are not there. Sadly album to album this is one of the most inconsistent things. So you just kind of appreciate how much they give you. (the design of the engineers which may or may not have wanted it to sound like music you could experience in person)

Knowing that general character differences exist, and being able to notice them easily, tells me that a stereo is actually representing what's on the album more than any stereo that cannot do that. You're essentially getting the finest information the album has to offer, as in something easily lost since it barely exists. And when this is happening I find some things other audiophiles do not. Here's an example, I think original early pressing of CCR for a couple albums sound really good, the timbre, texture, and force while not perfect really sound a hell of a lot more like instruments than the 45rpm reissues that honestly don't have those qualities... They sound soft and wrong to me. But if a stereo can't really give you "edge" in the character, you'd never know.

I’m not trying dissect anyone’s brains, but when the system gets out of the way you can connect with the source on various levels, both positive & negative of course recording quality can help with or detract from the experience. With colored systems you end up hearing every recording sounding the same, there’s a wall of hifi between you and the music.

david
 

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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some random thoughts that come to mind about system balance and the fine line of system rightness.

I think finding what I term 'refined' pieces for a system is the rub. refined means able to render the music complete and continuous sounding, with textural nuance and flow and naturalness. none of those aspects of the sound should filter out reality or rawness of the recording, or add any filtering layer or tonal sameness. it's certainly easier with analog sources to achieve this, but while challenging it's also possible for digital to do it......both with disc and file/streaming.

a refined sound gets the reproduction chain out of the way of the music message. lack of refinement reminds us it is reproduced. some might equate refined to liquid, although I see liquid as a stage beyond refined and nearing a borderline degree of artifact.

I see refined as a different concept than rounded or bloomy or golden. these are artifacts, possibly desired by some/many. if they are ever-present then they are distortion. these things should only be present when that is how it was recorded to sound. and the degree of this should vary greatly from recording to recording.

just my 2 cents and how I approach system development decisions.
 

Uk Paul

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I’m not trying dissect anyone’s brains, but when the system gets out of the way you can connect with the source on various levels, both positive & negative of course recording quality can help with or detract from the experience. With colored systems you end up hearing every recording sounding the same, there’s a wall of hifi between you and the music.

david

My thought's exactly..
 

Uk Paul

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Sep 27, 2012
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some random thoughts that come to mind about system balance and the fine line of system rightness.

I think finding what I term 'refined' pieces for a system is the rub. refined means able to render the music complete and continuous sounding, with textural nuance and flow and naturalness. none of those aspects of the sound should filter out reality or rawness of the recording, or add any filtering layer or tonal sameness. it's certainly easier with analog sources to achieve this, but while challenging it's also possible for digital to do it......both with disc and file/streaming.

a refined sound gets the reproduction chain out of the way of the music message. lack of refinement reminds us it is reproduced. some might equate refined to liquid, although I see liquid as a stage beyond refined and nearing a borderline degree of artifact.

I see refined as a different concept than rounded or bloomy or golden. these are artifacts, possibly desired by some/many. if they are ever-present then they are distortion. these things should only be present when that is how it was recorded to sound. and the degree of this should vary greatly from recording to recording.

just my 2 cents and how I approach system development decisions.

I know what you are getting at Mike and I agree, but I'm not sure the word 'refined' is quite right, as in many other instances refined means altered from it's original state, (eg sugars!). When I want to hear Muse at full tilt, I don't want refined either ;)
 

Tango

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You guys are really making my brain work more than my ears.

Tang:p
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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What I can say about neutrality is that it’s almost impossible to define. And hard to imagine. Until you experience a system where you go “I get it, THAT’S what neutrality *sounds* like”.
So I’ve heard a fair number of systems that APPEAR to be neutral, detailed, ordered, linear, yet unlistenable in the long term due to a kind of anaemic listless sterility. Yet all the ingredients are there, just the final meal is bland and unappetising.
I believe I just heard my first TRULY neutral system where bland and unappetising were not on the menu.
That was at Paul’s of Z Axis Audio.
This is the first time I’ve really experienced a system melting away to just leave the music. After about 30 mins of just the music I really started to try and dissect the presentation, look for a signature, affectation, anything, but I couldn’t find anything to notice let alone complain about. This was as close to the artefact free experience of live music that I’ve ever heard in a home system. Granted, if I pushed it very very hard w hard rock I’m sure it might break up a little, and it MAYBE missed a little lower mids shove, but that’s all, hardly complaints, and absolutely nothing to detract from an amazing illusion.
This system is now my major comparator as I try to get a bit more neutrality in my sound, and has really shown up where my system falls short in this area.
My conclusion? Paul’s neutrality IS neutrality, via system invisibility/lack of signature, as opposed a fair few megabucks systems’ neutrality which imposes artificial hyper detail retrieval and tipped up tonal balance to initially impress, but then leave me empty emotionally.
 
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the sound of Tao

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Jul 18, 2014
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Unsure that neautrality of itself immediately equates to causing a lack of emotional connection... this is more an issue of the presentation being perceived as more analytical in nature (emotion and analysis are two quite different cost centres in the brain). Neutrality makes more sense as a description of a presentation quality if it is understood generally as a lack of colouration or imbalance. Neutrality for me is more about even handedness than absolute transparency. Not sure then that this even has to relate to resolution. If a system is seemingly evenly unresolved but still perceived as coherent then maybe it can still be considered neutral in nature. Sounding real is a different thing again. Your average audiophile does love to be right :) just so many terms to endlessly debate and then so little time left for the music.
 

gian60

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Apr 17, 2016
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There isn't the right sound because is always different from reality,but there is sound you like.
Here all we have top system,all very beautiful but every system sound different from other,so under our experience we build our system like we like.
 

853guy

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Aug 14, 2013
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I can’t speak to Mike’s or ddk’s or rockitman’s systems, having never heard them, so I won’t. I can only speak to the systems I’ve heard that have most appealed to me.

Rather than conceptualise them with problematic definitions open to subjective interpretation (i.e. “natural”, “neutral”, “refined”, “liquid”, “sterile”, “accurate” et al. - though I do understand why those terms are used and can themselves be useful), I find it more helpful to define them in regard to interdependence. That is, the best I’ve heard are not systems in which compromises are negated through the averaging of judicious compensation in order to move a system toward a particular definition. Given that all systems must transform one type of energy into another, they’re systems that understand the nature of electro-mechanical and electro-acoustic interdependence, and maximise that potential.

I.e., in cases where the owner has preferred low compliance carts, they’ve matched them with heavier arms. In cases where the cart is a LOMC design they’ve ensured the interactivity of the resonance of the cartridge and the resonance of the transformer were taken into consideration when deciding upon values for both the primary and secondary loading of the SUT. In cases where they’ve preferred compression drivers of high impedance, they’ve matched them with SETs of low damping factor and zero global and local feedback. In cases where they’ve preferred multi-driver, multi-way cones with massive crossover components and complex impedance curves, they’ve matched them with solid state amplifiers capable of providing a extremely low output impedance. In the cases where they’re preferred transformer-driven stats or planars, they’ve matched them with amplification that acts as a current source rather than voltage source. In cases where they preferred a speaker with a large variance between on-axis and off-axis dispersion relative to the amount of acoustical energy at particular frequencies, they matched them to the a room of appropriate size, volume and acoustical treatment.

I’m guessing this is probably obvious to most here. But it personally took me a long time to acknowledge that system building was not about understanding which individual components were the “best” and then “balancing” them against one another to ameliorate their inherent shortcomings - it was about understanding which interdependencies were crucial to prioritize and then seek to maximise those interdependencies via superior implementation, even in cases in which their inherent shortcomings (i.e. “character”) were still discernible.

In other words, the best systems I’ve heard been very different in the way they portray music, but have done so in a way that in which implementation trumps topology, and topology trumps the constituent parts.

Best,

853guy
 

dminches

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Oct 22, 2011
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I am not sure what all the audiophile descriptive words mean but my goal is to try to put together a system and listening space that doesn't color the music. If that means neutral, then neutral it is.

My listening room is fully treated so it gets out of the way of the music.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
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I can’t speak to Mike’s or ddk’s or rockitman’s systems, having never heard them, so I won’t. I can only speak to the systems I’ve heard that have most appealed to me.

Rather than conceptualise them with problematic definitions open to subjective interpretation (i.e. “natural”, “neutral”, “refined”, “liquid”, “sterile”, “accurate” et al. - though I do understand why those terms are used and can themselves be useful), I find it more helpful to define them in regard to interdependence. That is, the best I’ve heard are not systems in which compromises are negated through the averaging of judicious compensation in order to move a system toward a particular definition. Given that all systems must transform one type of energy into another, they’re systems that understand the nature of electro-mechanical and electro-acoustic interdependence, and maximise that potential.

I.e., in cases where the owner has preferred low compliance carts, they’ve matched them with heavier arms. In cases where the cart is a LOMC design they’ve ensured the interactivity of the resonance of the cartridge and the resonance of the transformer were taken into consideration when deciding upon values for both the primary and secondary loading of the SUT. In cases where they’ve preferred compression drivers of high impedance, they’ve matched them with SETs of low damping factor and zero global and local feedback. In cases where they’ve preferred multi-driver, multi-way cones with massive crossover components and complex impedance curves, they’ve matched them with solid state amplifiers capable of providing a extremely low output impedance. In the cases where they’re preferred transformer-driven stats or planars, they’ve matched them with amplification that acts as a current source rather than voltage source. In cases where they preferred a speaker with a large variance between on-axis and off-axis dispersion relative to the amount of acoustical energy at particular frequencies, they matched them to the a room of appropriate size, volume and acoustical treatment.

I’m guessing this is probably obvious to most here. But it personally took me a long time to acknowledge that system building was not about understanding which individual components were the “best” and then “balancing” them against one another to ameliorate their inherent shortcomings - it was about understanding which interdependencies were crucial to prioritize and then seek to maximise those interdependencies via superior implementation, even in cases in which their inherent shortcomings (i.e. “character”) were still discernible.

In other words, the best systems I’ve heard been very different in the way they portray music, but have done so in a way that in which implementation trumps topology, and topology trumps the constituent parts.

Best,

853guy

+1

beautifully stated!
 

Ron Resnick

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Jan 24, 2015
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Dear Christian,

What do you think of the idea of a Kuzma 4Point 14”, which I think has an effective length of 12 inches, on the AS-2000?
 

byrdparis

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Nov 24, 2015
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Dear Christian,

What do you think of the idea of a Kuzma 4Point 14”, which I think has an effective length of 12 inches, on the AS-2000?

Im not Christian obviously;
why not? the 4P series is a sirius consideration too among the list of available arms around.
i know the 4P (11") on a lot of system and with a bunch of cartridges and always sounded very very good,
i listen to the 14" once (in an audio show last year in Warsaw) with a Myajima Zero (mono) on a TD AF3. it was THE most profound sound i heard in my three days attending there.
just my 2c.. (I dont own a 4P as for now).
 

rockitman

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Sep 20, 2011
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Dear Christian,

What do you think of the idea of a Kuzma 4Point 14”, which I think has an effective length of 12 inches, on the AS-2000?

It looks like a great arm. I may end up with 3, 3012r's and one Graham for this table. I have so many carts that I can mount with bayonet type head shells, there may be no room for other arms. I may have a free spot on the Af1 Though...12" rear slot.

My real plan is two more 3012R's....one more for the 4th spot on the AS and one for the rear of the AF1 which I am keeping...
 

rockitman

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Right now I am trying to determine if the diamond cantilever Coralstone is the best cart I have ever heard. The accuracy, speed, extension (both ends) and lack of distortion seem to be a cut above any other cart I have tried. I still have a ways to go on break-in however as I have only 12hrs on the clock so far.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
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Very interesting! *

And the LP S comparison awaits! :D


* With so many options how will you decide what turntable/tonearm/cartridge combination to listen to when you just want sit down for a listening session?

(I know that even if I have two set-ups on the AS-2000, like Steve, once I decide which combination I prefer I am sure I will use that one virtually all of the time (unless, for some reason, I feel that one set-up is consistently better for complex classical music and the other set-up is consistently better for vocals).)
 

rockitman

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Sep 20, 2011
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* With so many options how will you decide what turntable/tonearm/cartridge combination to listen to when you just want sit down for a listening session?

It is a problem...but a good one to have. My setup is basically a dedicated 3012R/SPU arm, 3012R/Modern stereo cart arm, Graham for Coralstone diamond and Lyra Olympos mono. Once I get the other 3012R, I will put the Olympos mono on it and use the 12" Graham for Coralstone diamond mainly.
 

ddk

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May 18, 2013
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Very interesting! *

And the LP S comparison awaits! :D


* With so many options how will you decide what turntable/tonearm/cartridge combination to listen to when you just want sit down for a listening session?

(I know that even if I have two set-ups on the AS-2000, like Steve, once I decide which combination I prefer I am sure I will use that one virtually all of the time (unless, for some reason, I feel that one set-up is consistently better for complex classical music and the other set-up is consistently better for vocals).)

It's not just a matter of better or worse Ron but various flavors, there really are many wonderful cartridges out there which are also different from each other, that's the beauty of multiple arms.

david
 

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