How does one become an expert in this hobby? Why are most guys in this hobby like "bad chefs"?

853guy · Sep 13, 2017

If by “expert”, you mean someone whose experience is gained by and reputation built on making predictions/observations in which the outcome has little to no consequence for them personally because they have little to no skin in the game, allowing them to continue to assume positions of influence disproportionate to their personal responsibility while being financially rewarded for making those same said predictions, then not only would I personally avoid that person at all costs, I would especially do so for one for whom the moniker “expert” was self-selected.

Best,

853guy

DaveC · Sep 13, 2017

Mark Seaton said:
The answer here is simply "yes." Many or all of these aspects are needed/important.

Unattributed quote I heard years ago in a presentation during and audio measurement/modeling workshop:

"Experience is having made all the mistakes... Knowledge is having made them often enough to recognize a pattern."

In the audio world we have experts with many different specialties and particular skills. Some have more broad, system execution experience, some are hyper specialized. Thinking for a moment on the question, I'd say there are at least 4 critical aspects which make for an expert vs a hobbyist who knows his own system well or someone who's still experimenting on those he helps. Here's a quick stab at some important qualifications and differentiators:

Varied experience in the area of specialty. In most cases this requires both listening and some form of technical tinkering.

Research and technical knowledge allowing for understanding from observations made. While some may not have the deep, technical schooling in the specific topic, anyone who really knows a topic is well aware of past research, writings, and is always searching and looking for more information.

Familiarity with a method to quantify and describe attributes and characteristics of their area of specialty.

Execution and application of expertise through confirmation of results in a variety of different situations and under varying conditions. If your understanding doesn't hold water outside of one specific example and can't be translated, you are probably stuck on coincidence and not causality.

I agree with a lot of that, but in the context of setting up a system using "off the shelf" gear is technical knowledge and experience all that necessary? Or is experience in using the particular gear and knowing what works together what really counts?

I've built my entire system so while I have insight others might not, I don't have in-depth knowledge and experience wrt commercial high end gear that a dealer would have. I'd guess that regardless of how amazing my system sounds (you'll have to trust me

) that I might not do as well as an experienced dealer when it comes to choosing off-the-shelf gear to make up a system as I'm not familiar with the subtle differences between company A vs B's amplifiers, etc...

Proof of this is the abject failure of a great majority of high end audio manufacturers to put together a decent system at earlier audio shows. The beginning years of RMAF were shockingly bad... things have improved orders of magnitude since then of course but that's a major example of folks in the industry failing to get the big picture right and in many cases not understanding how to best implement the devices they manufacture!

NorthStar · Sep 13, 2017

Who are the car experts, what do they recommend, how long have they been driving, on race tracks, dirt roads or highways?

Who are the experienced gurus of eternal happiness, how many people are under their spell, what do they recommend that is unobtainable?

If I was a robot I would like to float in space, constantly...like a weather satellite, in orbit.

DaveC · Sep 13, 2017

853guy said:
If by “expert”, you mean someone whose experience is gained by and reputation built on making predictions/observations in which the outcome has little to no consequence for them personally because they have little to no skin in the game, allowing them to continue to assume positions of influence disproportionate to their personal responsibility while being financially rewarded for making those same said predictions, then not only would I personally avoid that person at all costs, I would especially do so for one for whom the moniker “expert” was self-selected.

Best,

853guy

I've read research suggesting that identifying with the tag "expert" makes one closed-minded:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/expert-closed-minded_us_563369bbe4b00aa54a4db53a

“In our society, we tolerate more forceful and dogmatic expressions of opinion when the speaker is an expert than when the speaker is a novice,” Ottati said. “So, when the situation makes us feel like we are an ‘expert,’ it activates these role expectations in our mind, and we feel more entitled to think in a dogmatic manner — in other words, we feel more entitled to dismiss, ignore, or disparage opinions and viewpoints that differ from our own opinion.”

The findings suggest that the best way to be an expert is to work towards achieving mastery while reminding ourselves of how much we still don’t know.

“It would be useful,” Ottati adds, “for experts to read some of the literature regarding ‘intellectual humility.’”

853guy · Sep 13, 2017

DaveC said:
I've read research suggesting that identifying with the tag "expert" makes one closed-minded:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/expert-closed-minded_us_563369bbe4b00aa54a4db53a

Taleb, Nassim Nicholas. The Black Swan: The Impact of the Highly Improbable: Random House, 2007.

853guy

cjfrbw · Sep 13, 2017

The Taleb observations are worthy of note. Many "experts" are self anointed stuffed shirts speaking with great certainty in an uncertain world, and they are geared to winning popularity contests and getting acolytes and followers.

The reason "expert" predictions are so often wrong is because in order to appear knowledgeable and expert, they will string several unlikely events together that are more geared to flourishing their abstract knowledge than towards the issue at hand.

A defense is abandoning the notions of predictability and certainty, and taking a more stochastic view of things, where "experts" seldom thrive. the fallibility is more in the people who demand certainty where none exists, and keep these showboats afloat.

RogerD · Sep 13, 2017

853guy said:
View attachment 35353

Taleb, Nassim Nicholas. The Black Swan: The Impact of the Highly Improbable: Random House, 2007.

853guy

Taleb,
Is one of my favorites,a voice in the wilderness to be sure.

Folsom · Sep 13, 2017

It's really hard to define "expert" because so many people have specialized areas that they have experience with, usually specific to certain sets of gear. Depending on the subject I'd ask entirely different people for opinions, even just on here.

NorthStar · Sep 13, 2017

Expert people are usually rich people...in knowledge of constant open vision. ...And they are very patient.

SCAudiophile · Sep 13, 2017

Leif S said:
This should turn out to be an interesting thread lol

Most definitely....the thought "What is an Expert in all things audio anyway..." goes through the mind.

I'd say if Diogenes were here with his lamp but instead was looking for an expert in all areas of audio and furthermore, without an agenda, he'd have a long walk

!

I think the first hurdle is to find one that does not in fact proclaim themselves a de facto expert....

Sorry,...couldn't resist

! All kidding aside, I like all the posts above; they all make very good points!

ack · Sep 13, 2017

caesar said:
What separates the guys who really know something vs. guys who throw stuff together like bad chefs?

It has to be the cables

SCAudiophile · Sep 13, 2017

ack said:
It has to be the cables

Uh-oh...here we go!!!

microstrip · Sep 13, 2017

caesar said:
(...) What separates the guys who really know something vs. guys who throw stuff together like bad chefs?

ack said:
It has to be the cables

1. The weight of the audio magazine collection ...
2. The number of editions you have of the "Master Handbook of Acoustics"
3. The number of measurements you took with REW or equivalent software.

IMHO if the total length of the cables - signal, speaker, grounding and power - we own exceeds 250 feet we should immediately be considered an expert.

ack · Sep 13, 2017

microstrip said:
IMHO if the total length of the cables - signal, speaker and power - we own exceeds 250 feet we should immediately be considered an expert.

I am glad we agree, but you left out the grounding cables - that's total kingship

JackD201 · Sep 13, 2017

A good cook respects the recipe BUT also respects and takes into account the qualities of the day's produce.

awsmone · Sep 13, 2017

ack said:
I am glad we agree, but you left out the grounding cables - that's total kingship

OMG....I am Sensei...with my cable lengths and grounding wires

DaveC · Sep 13, 2017

ack said:
It has to be the cables

Of course!

Ronm1 · Sep 13, 2017

NorthStar said:
Who are the car experts, what do they recommend, how long have they been driving, on race tracks, dirt roads or highways?

/

On this subject I bring up Jay Lenos Garage
I trust his knowledge and experience to determine a good RIDE and a good DRIVE.

Click to expand...

Tango · Sep 13, 2017

Experts are not self-proclaimed. It's ones perception toward a person. A person is an expert only if you think he/she is. So one has to answer the question him/herself how that person becomes an expert or whether an expert at all.

If you can see a person is a bad chef, it is because he/she bother to show how to cook or you manage to taste his recipe. I would like to thank all the chefs here in the forum who bother to show recipes and share how to cook. There are so many ingredients and recipes available we cannot possibly try them all. Good cook or bad is up to us to decide. This is actually why I decide to share my small experience on gears on this forum. Before I joined, I was taking without giving. Great chefs always are open to observe and manage to make good of his observations..always.

Kind regards,
Tang

Bruce B · Sep 13, 2017

An "Expert" is one who knows and accepts their system will not be perfect. Most know the deficiencies and are either willing to put up with them, or don't care.

I have several systems in my home. I know the deficiencies of each one and am willing to put up with them..... or can't afford to fix them!!

How does one become an expert in this hobby? Why are most guys in this hobby like "bad chefs"?

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