Techdas Air Force 3 VS Clearaudio Master Innovation

howiebrou

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Which would you get and why? I am toying with the idea of one of these two. Not sure what their relative strengths and weaknesses would be though.

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JackD201

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I will not speak of sound quality because I am a dealer of one and the dealer of the other is a good friend. I will however speak of what I can think of other than that.

No. of arms : draw. The TD may allow 4 but that fourth arm on any table, including the TD, is scary to use and an accident waiting to happen IMO
Footprint: draw
Rack Space: CA, it doesn't require a big control, pump box
Ease of Use without disc flattening : draw.Both have speed select at the push of a button. Slight advantage to TD for having controls on front panel and more visible in low light conditions
With disc flattening (vacuum vs ring). : TechDAS due to a press of a button vs mounting of periphery ring> TD VH leaves records flatter too.
Ease of Set Up, Mechanical : TechDAS, minimal assembled required
Ease of Set Up, electronic (speed calibration): TechDAS. due to belt tensioner system vs CA's special tool, a flashlight, your reading glasses, a strobe and test disc and a trip to the chiropractor (both optical, microprocessor controlled)
Drive system: Air Bearing Belt vs Magnetic Drive: Draw (debatable but I can't be conclusive)
Platter Damping: Vacuum Chamber vs Multi-Material CLD : TechDAS, can't think of another brand where you can tap on a playing record with little sound coming out of the speakers
Scalability and Upgradability: CA
Sexy factor: CA especially with the option for owner's name engraved

All I can think of for now
 
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ddk

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I will not speak of sound quality because I am a dealer of one and the dealer of the other is a good friend. I will however speak of what I can think of other than that.
No. of arms : draw

I thought CA can have only two and know that AF-3 is good four arms.

david
 

gian60

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Italian distributor of techdas sold 3 AF3 and take back from customers One big Kuzma,One Brinkmann Balance and one Monaco GP
I don't know if sound of AF3 is better or customers bought AF3 for his beauty or possibility to use 4 arms
 

rockitman

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Sep 20, 2011
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I own a CA Master innovation and the AF1. As good as the CA sounds, traditional hard bearing TT's cannot compete with the low rolling noise floor air bearings provide. I love vacuum hold-down so my records are dead flat during playback. Had the AF3 been out when I bought the Master Innovation, I would of opted for AF3.
 

howiebrou

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Jun 29, 2012
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I will not speak of sound quality because I am a dealer of one and the dealer of the other is a good friend. I will however speak of what I can think of other than that.

No. of arms : draw. The TD may allow 4 but that fourth arm on any table, including the TD, is scary to use and an accident waiting to happen IMO
Footprint: draw
Rack Space: CA, it doesn't require a big control, pump box
Ease of Use without disc flattening : draw.Both have speed select at the push of a button. Slight advantage to TD for having controls on front panel and more visible in low light conditions
With disc flattening (vacuum vs ring). : TechDAS due to a press of a button vs mounting of periphery ring> TD VH leaves records flatter too.
Ease of Set Up, Mechanical : TechDAS, minimal assembled required
Ease of Set Up, electronic (speed calibration): TechDAS. due to belt tensioner system vs CA's special tool, a flashlight, your reading glasses, a strobe and test disc and a trip to the chiropractor (both optical, microprocessor controlled)
Drive system: Air Bearing Belt vs Magnetic Drive: Draw (debatable but I can't be conclusive)
Platter Damping: Vacuum Chamber vs Multi-Material CLD : TechDAS, can't think of another brand where you can tap on a playing record with little sound coming out of the speakers
Scalability and Upgradability: CA
Sexy factor: CA especially with the option for owner's name engraved

All I can think of for now

Thanks Jack. Great pros and cons list. At the end of the day I think both tables would sound great. Long term maintenance does concern me with pumps and the like although it seems as though the techdas one is pretty reliable. 3 arms on either table is more than enough and would necessitate me adding a phonostage or changing in my AR Ref 2. My main concern is whether the vacuum pump robs the table of its musicality or not. I guess this it's good to have this dilemma!
 

JackD201

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I thought CA can have only two and know that AF-3 is good four arms.

david

I thought the CA could do 3. I figured draw because front left mount was always tricky for me. I guess you are right though

No. of arms: TechDAS
 

howiebrou

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Jun 29, 2012
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I own a CA Master innovation and the AF1. As good as the CA sounds, traditional hard bearing TT's cannot compete with the low rolling noise floor air bearings provide. I love vacuum hold-down so my records are dead flat during playback. Had the AF3 been out when I bought the Master Innovation, I would of opted for AF3.

Thanks Christian. Good to know coming from someone with both brands to play with. One question, does the CA need a peripheral ring and/or clamp?

Thanks

Howie
 

rockitman

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Thanks Christian. Good to know coming from someone with both brands to play with. One question, does the CA need a peripheral ring and/or clamp?

Thanks

Howie

The other thing with the Clearaudio...you need to buy the ACCU+ battery power supply for the TT to use instead of the stock wall wart plug. It makes the motor noticeably quieter and adds $2,300 to the price approx.
 

JackD201

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Thanks Jack. Great pros and cons list. At the end of the day I think both tables would sound great. Long term maintenance does concern me with pumps and the like although it seems as though the techdas one is pretty reliable. 3 arms on either table is more than enough and would necessitate me adding a phonostage or changing in my AR Ref 2. My main concern is whether the vacuum pump robs the table of its musicality or not. I guess this it's good to have this dilemma!

Not at all Howie. You can run the table with the vacuum off and it will sound like you would expect of a table with a heavy platter with an air bearing. Compare on and off however and you will just hear how much quieter the backgrounds are. Tone doesn't really change much in the midband. Percussive instruments are IME what benefit the most. They are more firmly placed and defined with the vacuum chamber employed. It makes you think the platter is much more massive and damped than it is.

That said, some people do prefer the sound of tables that round off edges or plump up the lower midrange and upper bass. The AF3 and AF2 hardly do this. They just do it a bit more than the AF1. Within the context of the comparison, the CA doesn't do this either. This is usually the realm of suspended tables.
 

howiebrou

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Not at all Howie. You can run the table with the vacuum off and it will sound like you would expect of a table with a heavy platter with an air bearing. Compare on and off however and you will just hear how much quieter the backgrounds are. Tone doesn't really change much in the midband. Percussive instruments are IME what benefit the most. They are more firmly placed and defined with the vacuum chamber employed. It makes you think the platter is much more massive and damped than it is.

That said, some people do prefer the sound of tables that round off edges or plump up the lower midrange and upper bass. The AF3 and AF2 hardly do this. They just do it a bit more than the AF1. Within the context of the comparison, the CA doesn't do this either. This is usually the realm of suspended tables.

I have to admit I am not one who obsesses about accuracy and tend to favour a very full romantic sound. You will never here me playing the kind of rubbish you hear at hi Fi Shows either. It's all about feeling, gut impact etc. My LP-S provides much of this with my Avid Acutus and I was looking to add another TT since my Acutus has served me flawlessly for more than a decade.

With this in mind, which of these do you think would more float my boat? Yes it very much cart dependent and my Ortofon Anna might not at first seem to be the most obvious choice for my tastes but my concern is that if you add it onto a very neutral and detailed TT it might be too much...
 

JackD201

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I think you would be right. The Anna might be best for your tastes on the Avid and the Benz on the TD or CA. Steve prefers his ZYX to his Anna on the AF1. I didn't like the Anna much on Jim's AF2. I dunno really. It could be the arms, tonearm cables and phono stage too. There are a lot of very happy Anna owners. That's not to say AF tables are hyper analytical nor is the current crop of CA tables and carts. CA has come a long way since their all acrylic days when it comes to adding meat on the bone. TDs have been meaty from the get go. Very full but not loose bottom end that is idler and DD like. What it isn't is noticeably euphonic like my much loved TW AC-3 which has a lighter balance but has very sweet decays.
 

ddk

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May 18, 2013
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I have to admit I am not one who obsesses about accuracy and tend to favour a very full romantic sound. You will never here me playing the kind of rubbish you hear at hi Fi Shows either. It's all about feeling, gut impact etc. My LP-S provides much of this with my Avid Acutus and I was looking to add another TT since my Acutus has served me flawlessly for more than a decade.

With this in mind, which of these do you think would more float my boat? Yes it very much cart dependent and my Ortofon Anna might not at first seem to be the most obvious choice for my tastes but my concern is that if you add it onto a very neutral and detailed TT it might be too much...

AF3 isn't as neutral as AF1 & AF2 it has a livelier and warmer sound than both, your Anna can be a good match.

david
 

howiebrou

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AF3 isn't as neutral as AF1 & AF2 it has a livelier and warmer sound than both, your Anna can be a good match.

david

That's what I heard too. Probably means the AF1 is not for me...:cool:
 

gian60

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I think AF1 is for everybody
Then you can change sound changing cartridge
 

JackD201

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That's what I heard too. Probably means the AF1 is not for me...:cool:

Unless you opt for the Stainless Steel upper platter which is warmer than the Duralumin and the Titanium. ;)

The AF3 is closer to the AF2 than the AF2 is to the AF1. I know because I now have the only AF "1.5" which is an AF2 with the AF1 bearing and platter and AF1 air system minus the outboard condenser box. (Traded in for an AF1 Premium) That one is the real in-betweener. The factor appears vacuum damper chamber's internal volume and the platter material. That of the 3 and 2 are very similar in volume and are Stainless Steel. The AF1 much larger with a choice of 3 and possibly 4 (Tungsten) upper platters. The AF0 for which DDK sourced the giant motors will have the Tungsten.
 

ddk

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May 18, 2013
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I think AF1 is for everybody
Then you can change sound changing cartridge

Not really Gian, AF-1, AF-3 & the CA have very distinct characters that you can't change or cover up with any arm/cartridge combination only tune and dress it up to a point. The tt is what determines the nature of your sound.

david
 

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