Torqueo ordered
- Thread starter gian60
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Hi Paul,
How are you? I am also using a SAEC 506/30 on my Micro Seiki RX-5000. Am currently have the alignment set using a printed Conrad protractor using the Lofgren B are will null points at 61mm and 86mm. Have also tried using DIN and IEC null points as well. I have always wondered what the alternatives are is so little available published data. There are so many published chats on the design of this tonearm that requires some correction but mine seems to sound great hence I am really curious how all the other owners align their 506/30 tonearms? Would be great if you could share your experience. Thanks and cheers.
How are you? I am also using a SAEC 506/30 on my Micro Seiki RX-5000. Am currently have the alignment set using a printed Conrad protractor using the Lofgren B are will null points at 61mm and 86mm. Have also tried using DIN and IEC null points as well. I have always wondered what the alternatives are is so little available published data. There are so many published chats on the design of this tonearm that requires some correction but mine seems to sound great hence I am really curious how all the other owners align their 506/30 tonearms? Would be great if you could share your experience. Thanks and cheers.
Hello SMKL,
Welcome to What Best Forum, you are in good company here with a turntable like your Micro / SAEC..
It sounds like you have experimented already, so no doubt you have excellent sound, and if you use Baerwald (lofgren B) you will be very good, i will check the null points I use when back home later, and will post a Vinyl Engine graph with my settings in too..
Best Regards,
Paul
Welcome to What Best Forum, you are in good company here with a turntable like your Micro / SAEC..
It sounds like you have experimented already, so no doubt you have excellent sound, and if you use Baerwald (lofgren B) you will be very good, i will check the null points I use when back home later, and will post a Vinyl Engine graph with my settings in too..
Best Regards,
Paul
I’m ahead of you Gian LOL.
I was going to order the Torqueo, but w no chance for audition, passed.
In the meantime I decided to maxx out my current rig w psu and mechanical upgrades.
And my burn in period is finally bearing major benefits.
I’ve heard the SAEC506 recently, and can confirm you’ve chosen a killer arm.
I was going to order the Torqueo, but w no chance for audition, passed.
In the meantime I decided to maxx out my current rig w psu and mechanical upgrades.
And my burn in period is finally bearing major benefits.
I’ve heard the SAEC506 recently, and can confirm you’ve chosen a killer arm.
Hi Paul
If your not using Stevenson with your 506 but Baerwald are you turning cartridge in head shell ?
If your not using Stevenson with your 506 but Baerwald are you turning cartridge in head shell ?
Hi Paul,
Thanks for the quick reply and welcome.
Looking forward to having a look at your arc. Interestingly, I did not have to move my cartridge much (only a fraction of a degree to correct the cantilever alignment) to get the cantilever aligned with the parallel lines on the printed protractor. I have two ULS-3X, each with a Koetsu Rosewood Signature and ZYX Ultimate Omega mounted respectively. I just had a proper look at the Lofgren B Arc I printed, the null points I input into the Conrad Arc engine are 61.0 and 85.7 with the resulting Arc having an overhang of 8.647mm and null points being 65.227mm and 79.364mm. Offset became 13.774 degrees.
Hear soon and best wishes,
SM
Thanks for the quick reply and welcome.
Looking forward to having a look at your arc. Interestingly, I did not have to move my cartridge much (only a fraction of a degree to correct the cantilever alignment) to get the cantilever aligned with the parallel lines on the printed protractor. I have two ULS-3X, each with a Koetsu Rosewood Signature and ZYX Ultimate Omega mounted respectively. I just had a proper look at the Lofgren B Arc I printed, the null points I input into the Conrad Arc engine are 61.0 and 85.7 with the resulting Arc having an overhang of 8.647mm and null points being 65.227mm and 79.364mm. Offset became 13.774 degrees.
Hear soon and best wishes,
SM
Very interesting. They display amazing craftsmanship and attention to detail, yet make all the choices that don't work for me: lack of suspension, separate armpod, love for slate, class D amps in the speed controller. Has anyone ever compared Torqueo to Kronus?
Gian, would you know if Torqueo will sell the lifter for the SAEC 506/30 on a standalone basis? I was using an Ortofon lifter previously before switching over to a modified SAEC 308 lifter. There was a chap in Vietnam who use to make replicas of the EC-506 lifter but has since stopped. I like the nest design of the Torqueo lifter.
Paul : Do you have the original EV-506 lifter? It's harder to find than hen's teeth. My Japanese friend told me that it's changing hands for USD2600 at the minimum.
im pretty sure they will sell you a lifter, because i believe they are design and build their own.
i ordered my Torqueo a week ago, i have to wait for a long time for it to deliver... i am also contemplating about adding a rebuild and shiny SAEC 506 from them with my T34 EXCLUSIVE..
Hope they will help you.
i think they wouldn't sell their 308\506 to anyone outside of their customers circle,
but maybe a lifter or a base they might consider to help and sell others.
Hi yes, AS 600e is worth having, the additional mass at low centre of gravity always helps!
I use a Yamamoto lifter, seperate to arm base assembly. Jan Snegov occasionally has SAEC lifters to fit 506, but i chose not to alter anything on the arm and went seperate..
Welcome to WBF, SM!
Since you have two different cartridges, both brands of which are of great interest to me and others here, on the same model of tonearm, and on the same turntable, would you please describe in as much detail as you care to the sonic differences and similarities between these two cartridges?
Thank you!
Hi Ron,
How are you? I will give it shot.
The ZYX Ultimate Omega (replaced my Premium Omega) is fairly new with less than a 100 hours of play whilst the Koetsu Rosewood Signature is a mint condition cartridge from the 80s that I picked up from an ardent collector.
The first thing that hits you upon mounting the ZYX is the resolution that’s crisp with a great amount detail. It’s definitely a more modern presentation with percussions, string instruments etc presented clearly. You can easily hear the metal bristles of the brush scrubbing on the top hats on drum set if you play track One of Tsuyoshi Yamamoto’s Misty. The ZYX doesn’t sting you ears with piercing notes but instead gives you the excitement of highs without being jarring. It doesn’t sound clinical like a Clearaudio cartridge.
The Ultimate series delivers a very life like presentation that is very real sounding. It has to do with the manner the highs and upper mids are rendered in a crisp manner with a real sense of being there. The low mids and bass notes are taut and claws back the moment it’s struck despite me running a tube setup. The immediacy is par excellence as a result. Vocals are further back giving you a good sense of depth whilst instruments have an airy feel as it decays vividly melding unto the background.
It’s a real joy listening to Diana Krall’s Let’s fall in love or even the nasal Carol Kidd’s When I Dream. Mussorgsky’s Night on Bare Mountain or Stravinsky’s Firebird fares well with the ZYX. The soundstage is wide and the music unfolds with a good sense of realism with dark quiet passages and heartfelt bass trombone and tuba laying the foundation for the oncoming stunning impact when the drums slams in the Firebird symphony. Switching over to Herbie Hancock’s Empyrian Isles to get a feel of the drum solo on side A or the quirky eerie dark passages in The Egg makes you appreciate the magic that the ZYX Ultimate Omega delivers. If you have any of John Kaizen’s albums where he plays traditional Japanese Bamboo flutes, you will really experience what real airiness is as it’s akin to the deaf being able to hear each chuff of the flute with the feel of the air and decay resonating with your body. If you like slam, nothing beats the conga drums in Rickie Lee Jones’ Under the Boardwalk where you grin yourself silly when it hits. This is a great recording as it demonstrates the layering and separation capability of the new coil engine int he Ultimate series. You can distinctly place where the other four accompanying vocalist are standing and the cream is when one of then decided to move to the left. The new Ultimate engine is impressive with it’s ability to reproduce very live and real sounding soundstage.
Is there anything left for the Koetsu? Much so, I believe. I am certain that Sugano senior builds his cartridges with the same passion and fervour that I have when I bake my sourdough loafs at home. All the things you have read about the Koetsu Rosewood cartridges being overly lush laced with thick honied mids void of airy highs and strickened with lumpy bass is fake news (couldn’t help using this). It was probaby written by a PA system enthusiast.
It reminds me of the 4K LCD TV vs Pioneer Plasma TV comparison where almost everything is technically better with the 4K TV. Sharper images with more vivid colours but somehow you will end up missing the pleasantly rendered plasma screen.
No stuffed trumpets nor woolly drum skins here. This is possibly one of the best sounding cartridge I have ever listened to thus far. It’s almost surreal. I can’t say that the Koetsu is not as detailed compared to the ZYX Ultimate Omega but in reality, it makes the ZYX sounds busy. Details are rendered is a rounded fashion with the Koetsu unlike the more angular edges of the ZYX. I suspect it’s more of the resonance signature of wooden body. The brushing that I mentioned earlier in Misty is more emotional and you feel that the drummer isn’t pressing down hard against the top hats but instead is caressing it without tilting the top hats too much. There is a less angular feel to it. This is a first pressing Three blind Mice LP and the mastering is beyond words. One would have thought that Tsuyoshi Yamamoto was schooled to lay the piano sitting on the right side of the bench alongside someone else on the left as the loves to play the right most keys. You can literally hear the wood in the keys as they strike the strings. This is so with both the Koetsu and ZYX. The difference is the presentation as the Koetsu is ahead in terms of emotion where it immerses you into the shoes of the pianist feeling the exact emotion he goes through as each key is played. It makes you yearn with bated breath for the next note to be played in anticipation. The ZYX on the other hand makes you sit back to listen with less involvement.
If you play La Campanella on Sida A of the Nojima plays Listz, you will find that the Koetsu keeps up in pace with the ZYX when Nojima plays with such an incredibly fast tempo. You can hear how the decay unfolds within each note. This is detail within details. The layering is unparalleled. You do get air with the ZYX but it’s is on another planet all together. There is never a flat instance with both cartridges when Nojima plays in a feverish pace as you can hear each note distinctly. The same goes for Brass or woodwinds for Jazz goes hand in glove with the Koetsu. The relaxed presentation from 12” SAEC tonearm and warm RX-5000 makes the Koetsu go wax lyrical with Ben Webster’s saxaphone in Soulville. Blues? Stevie Ray Vaughan’s electric guitar in Tin Pan Alley? Well, you have to hear it for yourself
Jennifer Werner’s Way Down Deep will illustrate the bass character of both cartridges well. The ZYX will give you a taut and tight bass line with less reverb. You hear the skin of the drum with the Koetsu as it has more depth from the reverb. Playing the drum i provision tracks on Sheffield Labs pointed towards the same. If you were to be Phil Collins, the Koetsu will be pick of the day. Cellos? Gary Karr’s Adagio di’Albinoni is my all time favourite to unwind. It’s all about nuances here with his bow techniques and the bellowing lows from the pipe organ. The edge the Koetsu has over the ZYX is all about emotional involvement. The rich and lush notes balanced with smooth crescendos and lows massaging your senses makes the Koetsu surreal. Another good Gary Karr album to do a comparison with is his album with the London Double Bass symphony. You will really appreciate both cartridges as they run through the complex scores.
Both are winners in their own way. Whilst the Koetsu is more emotionally involving, the ZYX shines when immediacy is required to being the best out from the recording. It’s hard to put a finger on what to play on which tonearm but I would listen to large scale symphonies and Jazz bands with the ZYX and leave the smooth jazz, blues or classical music pieces featuring violins, pianos etc to the Koetsu. Vocals, if you have already not deduced from above will be for the Koetsu. Pop, rock and metal, I would probably leave that to the ZYX or the Denon DA-308 with a DL-103SA mounted as the dark horse.
Hi Ron,
How are you? I will give it shot.
The ZYX Ultimate Omega (replaced my Premium Omega) is fairly new with less than a 100 hours of play whilst the Koetsu Rosewood Signature is a mint condition cartridge from the 80s that I picked up from an ardent collector.
The first thing that hits you upon mounting the ZYX is the resolution that’s crisp with a great amount detail. It’s definitely a more modern presentation with percussions, string instruments etc presented clearly. You can easily hear the metal bristles of the brush scrubbing on the top hats on drum set if you play track One of Tsuyoshi Yamamoto’s Misty. The ZYX doesn’t sting you ears with piercing notes but instead gives you the excitement of highs without being jarring. It doesn’t sound clinical like a Clearaudio cartridge.
The Ultimate series delivers a very life like presentation that is very real sounding. It has to do with the manner the highs and upper mids are rendered in a crisp manner with a real sense of being there. The low mids and bass notes are taut and claws back the moment it’s struck despite me running a tube setup. The immediacy is par excellence as a result. Vocals are further back giving you a good sense of depth whilst instruments have an airy feel as it decays vividly melding unto the background.
It’s a real joy listening to Diana Krall’s Let’s fall in love or even the nasal Carol Kidd’s When I Dream. Mussorgsky’s Night on Bare Mountain or Stravinsky’s Firebird fares well with the ZYX. The soundstage is wide and the music unfolds with a good sense of realism with dark quiet passages and heartfelt bass trombone and tuba laying the foundation for the oncoming stunning impact when the drums slams in the Firebird symphony. Switching over to Herbie Hancock’s Empyrian Isles to get a feel of the drum solo on side A or the quirky eerie dark passages in The Egg makes you appreciate the magic that the ZYX Ultimate Omega delivers. If you have any of John Kaizen’s albums where he plays traditional Japanese Bamboo flutes, you will really experience what real airiness is as it’s akin to the deaf being able to hear each chuff of the flute with the feel of the air and decay resonating with your body. If you like slam, nothing beats the conga drums in Rickie Lee Jones’ Under the Boardwalk where you grin yourself silly when it hits. This is a great recording as it demonstrates the layering and separation capability of the new coil engine int he Ultimate series. You can distinctly place where the other four accompanying vocalist are standing and the cream is when one of then decided to move to the left. The new Ultimate engine is impressive with it’s ability to reproduce very live and real sounding soundstage.
Is there anything left for the Koetsu? Much so, I believe. I am certain that Sugano senior builds his cartridges with the same passion and fervour that I have when I bake my sourdough loafs at home. All the things you have read about the Koetsu Rosewood cartridges being overly lush laced with thick honied mids void of airy highs and strickened with lumpy bass is fake news (couldn’t help using this). It was probaby written by a PA system enthusiast.
It reminds me of the 4K LCD TV vs Pioneer Plasma TV comparison where almost everything is technically better with the 4K TV. Sharper images with more vivid colours but somehow you will end up missing the pleasantly rendered plasma screen.
No stuffed trumpets nor woolly drum skins here. This is possibly one of the best sounding cartridge I have ever listened to thus far. It’s almost surreal. I can’t say that the Koetsu is not as detailed compared to the ZYX Ultimate Omega but in reality, it makes the ZYX sounds busy. Details are rendered is a rounded fashion with the Koetsu unlike the more angular edges of the ZYX. I suspect it’s more of the resonance signature of wooden body. The brushing that I mentioned earlier in Misty is more emotional and you feel that the drummer isn’t pressing down hard against the top hats but instead is caressing it without tilting the top hats too much. There is a less angular feel to it. This is a first pressing Three blind Mice LP and the mastering is beyond words. One would have thought that Tsuyoshi Yamamoto was schooled to lay the piano sitting on the right side of the bench alongside someone else on the left as the loves to play the right most keys. You can literally hear the wood in the keys as they strike the strings. This is so with both the Koetsu and ZYX. The difference is the presentation as the Koetsu is ahead in terms of emotion where it immerses you into the shoes of the pianist feeling the exact emotion he goes through as each key is played. It makes you yearn with bated breath for the next note to be played in anticipation. The ZYX on the other hand makes you sit back to listen with less involvement.
If you play La Campanella on Sida A of the Nojima plays Listz, you will find that the Koetsu keeps up in pace with the ZYX when Nojima plays with such an incredibly fast tempo. You can hear how the decay unfolds within each note. This is detail within details. The layering is unparalleled. You do get air with the ZYX but it’s is on another planet all together. There is never a flat instance with both cartridges when Nojima plays in a feverish pace as you can hear each note distinctly. The same goes for Brass or woodwinds for Jazz goes hand in glove with the Koetsu. The relaxed presentation from 12” SAEC tonearm and warm RX-5000 makes the Koetsu go wax lyrical with Ben Webster’s saxaphone in Soulville. Blues? Stevie Ray Vaughan’s electric guitar in Tin Pan Alley? Well, you have to hear it for yourself
Jennifer Werner’s Way Down Deep will illustrate the bass character of both cartridges well. The ZYX will give you a taut and tight bass line with less reverb. You hear the skin of the drum with the Koetsu as it has more depth from the reverb. Playing the drum i provision tracks on Sheffield Labs pointed towards the same. If you were to be Phil Collins, the Koetsu will be pick of the day. Cellos? Gary Karr’s Adagio di’Albinoni is my all time favourite to unwind. It’s all about nuances here with his bow techniques and the bellowing lows from the pipe organ. The edge the Koetsu has over the ZYX is all about emotional involvement. The rich and lush notes balanced with smooth crescendos and lows massaging your senses makes the Koetsu surreal. Another good Gary Karr album to do a comparison with is his album with the London Double Bass symphony. You will really appreciate both cartridges as they run through the complex scores.
Both are winners in their own way. Whilst the Koetsu is more emotionally involving, the ZYX shines when immediacy is required to being the best out from the recording. It’s hard to put a finger on what to play on which tonearm but I would listen to large scale symphonies and Jazz bands with the ZYX and leave the smooth jazz, blues or classical music pieces featuring violins, pianos etc to the Koetsu. Vocals, if you have already not deduced from above will be for the Koetsu. Pop, rock and metal, I would probably leave that to the ZYX or the Denon DA-308 with a DL-103SA mounted as the dark horse.
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