Need help with my room

z06gal · Dec 30, 2010

I would like to get some input from this forum concerning the acoustics of my room. A couple years ago we decided to have some kitchen work done and I elected to knock out the wall that separated the living room and kitchen. This has made the room seem longer but I have a few other issues that I'm not sure how to resolve. The room is 18 x 18 [yuck, i know] with a 9 ft ceiling. This past spring, I had the carpet removed and we had bamboo flooring installed. I then added an area rug and bought some carpet padding from Lowes to put under it to help with any echoing I would have. I have a couple pics for you to see. These pics were taken with plenty of lighting so you can really see the room. The window by the left front speaker has a room darkening shade with a room darkening curtain over it. One problem I have with that window is all the white there along with the white on the ceiling is so reflective at night when we are watching tv so the curtain helps with that as well as helping with sound. The speakers are 30 inches from the back wall. I measured them again today to make sure they were the same. My problem in this room is the hallway door. I added acoustic foam to the back wall but I would like to add some bass traps and am not sure how to best handle that. Any recommendations you guys can make would be so appreciated. Oh, the pic taken from in front of the screen towards the kitchen allows you to see the projector. I now have it on a smaller stand that I can move when I am listening to music. This flooring makes that easy and convenient to do. Anyway, if I need to take more pics, I will be glad to. These are some I took a while back that gives you a good idea about the room. Thanks so much for your help.

Kal Rubinson · Dec 30, 2010

It would be useful to see more pix. Does the 18'x18' include the kitchen? The one thing I can see/suggest: All your foam is below the belt and would be much more effective at ear level. Currently, your room has a carpet and low wall padding but is completely live in the upper half. Also, consider thick mineral wool panels instead of the foam as, for the same dimensions, they will be more broad-band.

EDIT: I didn't get the second picture on first viewing. So, those rear corners are calling out for bass traps and leather is highly reflective. Think of all these as "opportunities."

Finally, you have not told use what your acoustic problems are. What are you hearing?

Kal

z06gal · Dec 30, 2010

Kal Rubinson said:
It would be useful to see more pix. Does the 18'x18' include the kitchen? The one thing I can see/suggest: All your foam is below the belt and would be much more effective at ear level. Currently, your room has a carpet and low wall padding but is completely live in the upper half. Also, consider thick mineral wool panels instead of the foam as, for the same dimensions, they will be more broad-band.

Kal

No the 18x18 is just the living room. I am not familiar with the mineral wool panels so I'll check into that. So you are saying I should go up midway the screen on each side? I'll shoot some more pics from other angles to give you a better idea. Thanks!

RBFC · Dec 30, 2010

Robin, it may be easier if you imagine the sound reflections to behave like pool balls bouncing off the walls. If the sound path from the speaker to a wall (then bouncing to you in the listening seat) does not hit some of the absorptive material, then you should place some treatment there.

Another method is to have a helper hold a small mirror on the wall surface and slide it along the wall. Sitting in the listening seat, when you can see the reflection of the speaker in the mirror, that is a point that needs absorptive treatment.

I'd also recommend that your primary listening seat be centered between the two speakers, similar to an equilateral triangle.

Hope this helps,

Lee

amirm · Dec 30, 2010

First, you have a beautiful home

. As such, you need to tell us how far you want to go with acoustic treatment. Such things can be made tasteful but there is no getting around the fact that they don't look like furniture.

As Kal has suggested, bass traps help smooth out low frequencies. They go in the corners of the room. The other category are absorbers which go at the first reflection point. This is the point that if you put a mirror, you see the speaker from your seating positions. This also includes the ceiling.

Let us know if you are open to adding these things to your room and then our resident experts can chime in with more specific recommendations.

amirm · Dec 30, 2010

Oops, Lee beat me to it

.

BTW, on the video side, you can get blackout shades that completely block our the light. They have channels on the side that cover the edge where the light currently escapes. So if you watch movies during the day and want to darken that more, that is an option to go go after.

z06gal · Dec 30, 2010

amirm said:
First, you have a beautiful home . As such, you need to tell us how far you want to go with acoustic treatment. Such things can be made tasteful but there is no getting around the fact that they don't look like furniture.

As Kal has suggested, bass traps help smooth out low frequencies. They go in the corners of the room. The other category are absorbers which go at the first reflection point. This is the point that if you put a mirror, you see the speaker from your seating positions. This also includes the ceiling.

Let us know if you are open to adding these things to your room and then our resident experts can chime in with more specific recommendations.

I am very much willing to do whatever it takes to get the best sound. I am more into sound quality than cosmetics. I listen to music ALOT and for those of you that may wonder from that picture, I slide my chair over to the listening position very easily. My projector is on a much smaller, lighter stand and I just push it out of the way. I am not your typical female so don't worry about suggesting something that may not be "pretty." Lol

z06gal · Dec 30, 2010

This is an old picture taken from the breakfast nook area in the kitchen but it gives you an idea of the whole area. Most of that equipment is gone now.

Kal Rubinson · Dec 30, 2010

Also, let me put in a plug for one of the home team guys: Ethan Winer. His website has lots of good advice (and products) that would apply well to your situation.

z06gal · Dec 30, 2010

Kal Rubinson said:
Also, let me put in a plug for one of the home team guys: Ethan Winer. His website has lots of good advice (and products) that would apply well to your situation.

Steve mentioned him to me. I'll check his site out now.

amirm · Dec 30, 2010

The wider shot definitely tells us more. Sadly, one thing that it says is that you don't have many options given the door on the right and the window and fireplace on the left.

I think the ceiling represents the best opportunity.

RBFC · Dec 30, 2010

amirm said:
The wider shot definitely tells us more. Sadly, one thing that it says is that you don't have many options given the door on the right and the window and fireplace on the left.

I think the ceiling represents the best opportunity.

Agreed. Symmetrical treatments are out. I thought a bass trap could go in the left front corner (probably a triangular model) and some absorptive material at first front-wall reflection points. Ceiling might be well-served with a diffusor array.

Lee

z06gal · Dec 30, 2010

amirm said:
The wider shot definitely tells us more. Sadly, one thing that it says is that you don't have many options given the door on the right and the window and fireplace on the left.

I think the ceiling represents the best opportunity.

You are soooo right. Those are the issues I have been dealing with. I'll take any and all recommendations. I can easily add some treatment further up the wall and do some bass traps. Thanks so much for everybody's input.

Steve Williams · Dec 30, 2010

Robin

For me at least, the single thing I would do first is get one seat in the sweet spot as I am sure your speakers aren't imaging well from your seating position now unless you have a balance on your preamp to adjust for such

BTW, Lee suggested the seat in a position making an equilateral triangle. The Wilson formula is distance from tweeter to tweeter X 1.1-1.5 = sitting position

z06gal · Dec 31, 2010

Steve Williams said:
Robin

For me at least, the single thing I would do first is get one seat in the sweet spot as I am sure your speakers aren't imaging well from your seating position now unless you have a balance on your preamp to adjust for such

BTW, Lee suggested the seat in a position making an equilateral triangle. The Wilson formula is distance from tweeter to tweeter X 1.1-1.5 = sitting position

Okay Steve, so that would put me at just over 7 ft which is good for this room. My question is, and I know I have to continue to measure and move by fractions to get there but how much toe in would you think I would have? I have read the manual but I still am not sure about that. Also, for those referring to ceiling treatment, what do you recommend?

RBFC · Dec 31, 2010

Robin,

Here's an idea for ceiling treatment, while maybe too expensive for these, it may give you thoughts about how to diffuse the sound that would bounce off the ceiling:

http://www.rpginc.com/residential/index.htm

Another factor I thought of: you said you measured the distance from each speaker to the wall behind it, but have you equalized the distance from each speaker to your ears? Some of our resident experts did the math and a difference in just 1/4" can make a large difference in the focus and placement of your stereo image. If I recall, that 1/4" difference can move a solo singer 4 inches off to the side of where they were intended to be.

Lee

JackD201 · Dec 31, 2010

Great advice all around. If I may add to what Steve said, perhaps a two seater love seat would be a good alternative to your lounge chairs so you and the hubby can still watch and listen together and you can get the sweet spot all to yourself when he's not in. I don't think ceiling mounting your projector should be a problem.

By the way I spy your Proceed amps. I still own my BPA-3. They're kind of rare. Congratulations on your Watt/Pups! The 5 is the most iconic one as far as I know.

Do tell us what you are hearing as Kal said.

RUR · Dec 31, 2010

RBFC said:
Here's an idea for ceiling treatment, while maybe too expensive for these, it may give you thoughts about how to diffuse the sound that would bounce off the ceiling...

Lee, I've always been partial to Tim's elegant ceiling diffusion solution, using RPG BAD Panels and seen here. Post #39 shows the finished product.

rbbert · Dec 31, 2010

Steve Williams said:
BTW, Lee suggested the seat in a position making an equilateral triangle. The Wilson formula is distance from tweeter to tweeter X 1.1-1.5 = sitting position

Just guessing here, but it looks like your tweeter to tweeter distance is more like 12'-13', which would make your listening distance better at ~13.5' - ~19'

Steve Williams · Dec 31, 2010

z06gal said:
Okay Steve, so that would put me at just over 7 ft which is good for this room. My question is, and I know I have to continue to measure and move by fractions to get there but how much toe in would you think I would have? I have read the manual but I still am not sure about that. Also, for those referring to ceiling treatment, what do you recommend?

Wilson recommends a toe in such that when sitting in the sweet spot you can just see the inside wall of the speaker cabinet.

FWIW in my room my sitting distance is 1.1 X tweeter to tweeter

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