Schroeder, Durand Talea II, and Spiral Groove Centroid

bonzo75

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Hi all, looking at tonearms, Schroeder seems to be most revered arm on various forums. Plus he spends his time in the Western Electric room, loves idlers, classical, etc.

On Audiogon in an old thread you will find jazdoc, dmailer, and Doug Deacon (a long time champion of Zyx and Schroeder) preferring Durand Talea II to Schroeder reference, after eulogizing the Schroeder for many years, and Durand is a classical guy too.

Schroeder LT possibly better than the Reference.

And jfrech moved from LT to Spiral Groove Centroid.

Durand Talea II used, and Centroid, are cheaper.

Difficult for most to compare these arms, I guess.

So if anyone has had compares of these with other arms, thoughts welcome. If you don't want to post negative experiences, please PM.
 

KeithR

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I know it may sound silly, but I don't like unipivots so while Durand was recommended by several people I opted to stick with a gimbaled Brinkmann (Kuzma was my other alternative).

Obviously MikeL has experience with these arms and prefers the Durand. Albert Porter has had most of these arms and is a Kuzma guy - I assume you have read this:

http://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/kuzma-4-point-tonearm/

Ultimately at this level, I'm afraid some trial and error is probably required.
 

bonzo75

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Wow nice article, thanks, hadn't read that
 

KeithR

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Wow nice article, thanks, hadn't read that

Hopefully you can hear Albert's room in Dallas sometime - its certainly one of the best in the US, and non-dedicated. With your affinity for vintage TTs, he'd be a great source of info for you.
 

dan31

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Tough to get much on the Spiral Groove Centroid. I have one and have been very satisfied but I have not compared to the other arms you listed. I think If you read the patent granted to Sprial Groove you at least get a sense of the approach to a unipivot with all of the strengths and most of the difficulties being remedied.

No doubt the other arms are fine products. Jfrench is in the best position to discuss at least two of the arms.
 

jfrech

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The LT is a special arm. But so is the Centroid. The LT takes some set up and a very stable rack. My Grand Prix Audio Rack has some movement to it. Part of the racks design. The LT didn't like how it swayed, it excited the 2 bearings and some wobbling. A pivoted arm like a Tri Planar or Centroid, the pivot moves with the sway of the rack and no issues at all.

The Centroid gives me the quietest, most textures, playback I've had to date. Yes you can hear the LT on the inner and outer groves doing a bit better job.

The Thales Simplicity has me wondering right now. Curious about it. I'll likely upgrade my tt to the 2.0 spec first however...
 

bonzo75

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Interesting point regarding the swaying. Did you such over when you had the atlas? Or did you try the Allaertz as well in both
 

bonzo75

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Maybe that's why the Doehmann uses the captive bearing and not the LT because the TT sways on its integrated minus K platform
 

XV-1

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The LT is a special arm. But so is the Centroid. The LT takes some set up and a very stable rack. My Grand Prix Audio Rack has some movement to it. Part of the racks design. The LT didn't like how it swayed, it excited the 2 bearings and some wobbling. A pivoted arm like a Tri Planar or Centroid, the pivot moves with the sway of the rack and no issues at all.

The Centroid gives me the quietest, most textures, playback I've had to date. Yes you can hear the LT on the inner and outer groves doing a bit better job.

The Thales Simplicity has me wondering right now. Curious about it. I'll likely upgrade my tt to the 2.0 spec first however...

Very interesting and thanks for explaining why you changed arms.

imo the Thales Simplicity II is very special and sounds superb on both my belt drive TW Acustic and DD technics SP10 mk3. in fact I will probably end up buying a 2nd Thales arm so one can be on each table.
 

jfrech

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Interesting point regarding the swaying. Did you such over when you had the atlas? Or did you try the Allaertz as well in both

I had the Atlas and Allerts in the LT over time. Both were excellent. I had the Allaerts in the Centroid to start and since moved up to the Goldfinger Statement...
 

spiritofmusic

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John, I've been in some contact w Jesse of GPA, and he strongly recommends the Triplanar U12" on the Parabolica, since I got such a good impression of the Triplanar 9" on the Monaco 1.5.
Any thoughts?
I got some impression that the Monaco's precise demeanour was "rounded out" a little by the marginally warmer Triplanar.
I had been favouring the LT as well, but any tt I get incl posdible GPA will go on a Stacore Adv platform, and that has wobble as part of its raison d'etre.
 

spiritofmusic

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John, why would you consider the Thales after deciding to stop using the LT?
They're surely cut from the same cloth.
 

bonzo75

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John, I've been in some contact w Jesse of GPA, and he strongly recommends the Triplanar U12" on the Parabolica, since I got such a good impression of the Triplanar 9" on the Monaco 1.5.
Any thoughts?
I got some impression that the Monaco's precise demeanour was "rounded out" a little by the marginally warmer Triplanar.
I had been favouring the LT as well, but any tt I get incl posdible GPA will go on a Stacore Adv platform, and that has wobble as part of its raison d'etre.

Time changed the tri to kuzma on his Monaco and found it much better
 

spiritofmusic

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Ked, you mean Tima?
A 4Point 14" could be quite something, pretty much eliminating all tracking errors close to LT territory, w none of the slight stability issues on a non rigid support that compelled John to swap out the LT.
For me, I'm after a final final tt/arm purchase (yes, I know, final final last words LOL), and Parabolica/4Point 14" could be da bomb.
 

XV-1

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John, why would you consider the Thales after deciding to stop using the LT?
They're surely cut from the same cloth.

Is that a serious comment? That is like saying all unipivots sound the same.:confused:

John already explained why he changed, and sonics was not the main reason, it was more the movement in the stand and Schroeder needed a solid stand. No such issues with the Thales. I have mine on a stand with compression spring isolation.

The Thales and Schroeder are build completely differently with very different execution to get to the holy grail of tangential tracking.

With the greatest respect to the Triplaner tonearm after spending 3 months with one a couple of years back, imo it is not competitive with the Simplicity.
 

AMP

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John, I've been in some contact w Jesse of GPA, and he strongly recommends the Triplanar U12" on the Parabolica, since I got such a good impression of the Triplanar 9" on the Monaco 1.5.
Any thoughts?

I haven't heard the U12 on the Parabolica, but I had the U10SE on my demo for a few weeks with the Lyra Etna. This was a wonderful combination and at the time I couldn't imagine it getting much better. Then I mounted the 11" Kuzma 4Point and that arm really blew me away to the point that I immediately signed up as a dealer.

I have nothing against the Triplanar at all. It's an excellent tonearm and very well thought-out. The Kuzma is IMHO simply a better arm and can make the Triplanar sound a bit veiled in comparison. Build quality is beyond reproach, settings are simple and repeatable, sonics are outstanding. What more could you ask for?

Currently have a Benz LPS mounted on the 4Point and I've never heard that cartridge sound like this before. It now has a level of transparency and dynamic punch that allows it to do things I've only ever heard previously with the Goldfinger (which also sounds excellent with the 4Point).

Time changed the tri to kuzma on his Monaco and found it much better

We recently delivered a Monaco 2.0 / 4Point combo to a client and mounted his Benz LPS on it. This was an outstanding combination and a listening experience that I will not soon forget. I've previously heard the Monaco with the Triplanar U12 (LPS, Etna, and Goldfinger) and while any of those were stunning combinations the 4Point is simply better. As a bonus it's also cheaper too :D
 

spiritofmusic

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XV, I assumed the LT and Thales worked in similar ways and hence might be unsuitable in similar ways in the way John described.
My bad.
 

jfrech

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John, I've been in some contact w Jesse of GPA, and he strongly recommends the Triplanar U12" on the Parabolica, since I got such a good impression of the Triplanar 9" on the Monaco 1.5.
Any thoughts?
I got some impression that the Monaco's precise demeanour was "rounded out" a little by the marginally warmer Triplanar.
I had been favouring the LT as well, but any tt I get incl posdible GPA will go on a Stacore Adv platform, and that has wobble as part of its raison d'etre.

The TriPlanar I had was 10.5 inch I think. GPA is fond of this arm. And I had a great experience with it. I have not tried the U12. But I'm curious as it has better bearings, better wire, longer tube and guessing the carbon fiber tube is also better. I'd be careful with any wobble and the LT, it likes a stable platform and then it'll shine. What arm do you have now?
 

jfrech

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Is that a serious comment? That is like saying all unipivots sound the same.:confused:

John already explained why he changed, and sonics was not the main reason, it was more the movement in the stand and Schroeder needed a solid stand. No such issues with the Thales. I have mine on a stand with compression spring isolation.

The Thales and Schroeder are build completely differently with very different execution to get to the holy grail of tangential tracking.

With the greatest respect to the Triplaner tonearm after spending 3 months with one a couple of years back, imo it is not competitive with the Simplicity.

Exactly what I was thinking. The Thales should act more like a fixed pivot on my stand given the way it wobbles. My Centroid uni pivot has no issues with this wobble...they gently move together
 

spiritofmusic

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John, I use what I consider in my humble opinion the greatest bargain in whole of high end, Trans Fi Audio Salvation Terminator T3Pro air bearing linear tracking tonearm, that cost me all of £800/$1k.
Google it.
Unlike the Kuzma Airline and Walker air arms etc, it uses a low pressure pump and very short (3") wand.
Despite what you might think, it tracks like a bloodhound despite appearing to be a bit "floaty" on my variably warped lps (my tt is designed so lps sit on Delrin cones w no clamp, the very opposite of having lps bonded to the platter w vacuum hold down).
However, in my new room which has been a revelation, my analog hasn't QUITE dialled in.
Hence, I'm looking at options...
 

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