What COULD it be about files vs CDs that many find CD transports more "Real" than digital transport?

audioguy

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Can you give us more details - models used and system used in the test? I find impressive that you got the transport every time. Although in the long term I prefer the transport, I am not able to separate them blind with 100% success in listening tests.

It would be nice to know the methodology you used for the tests.

System consisted of Magico Q5's, supplemented with REL subs; all Spectral electronics, dCS source, some esoteric turntable, all in a room initially custom designed (by the same guy that did Mike Lavigne's room) but since modified by the owner of Tube Traps. One of the very best 2 or 3 two channel rooms I have ever heard anywhere. Ever. We also had another server there ( it was mine) and was built by qSonix who has since folded. The qSonix server did not outperform the dCS transport, but was easily equal to it, and did cost a bunch less.

No magic to our testing methodology. All of his equipment is in a separate room behind his listening room. Both the servers (both of them) and transport were connected to different inputs on his dCS up-sampler/DAC. We had a disc in the transport and the same music available on the servers. The guy operating the equipment would randomly play one source or the other, and then the same music on the other source and then the other source. The listener's job was to note their preference and why. Music was changed to include many types. Each of us, not knowing what the source was, ALWAYS chose the non qSonix server as our preference over the transport. ALWAYS. The server (Music Vault) was built by Sound Science. For this test, it was a loaner from the company. We both bought one as a result of this comparison and it is still what I use. Are their better servers available now? Probably, but I am perfectly happy with this product as is the guy who owned the system we used for comparison purposes.

Conclusions: All servers are not created equal and can equal or exceed the performance of some of the best transports.
 

Alrainbow

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I can tell of my umt plus is serving my lampi or my server is that's easy
Also Cesar will
Understand this part. In GUI or minimal mode the umt is better but when I go into core this moves this to another level in lowering back ground and ease of presentation
 

Al M.

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The owner of an excellent, highly resolving system, and myself compared my CD transport to his file playback using the latest Roon upgrade. We both agreed that the transport clearly beat file playback in separation of instruments and musical lines, in high-frequency resolution and lack of grain, and in overall cleanness of sound. While my Simaudio Moon CD transport was superior to file playback, an Oppo universal transport playing back CD performed at about the same level as the file.

The system's owner now intends to buy the Simaudio Moon CD transport.

Another example where physical CD playback was judged superior to file playback is discussed in this thread:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?23334-Transport-to-Spin-Red-book-CD-s
 

Alrainbow

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I think that system owner should demo a sound galleries sever or even better a lampi SK
One thing for sure in digital servers is less is more
The less we run the better it sounds. And what player we choose matters plenty. I build servers and feel very confident given the money to buy the best parts can beat out any server made
Having said that the simplicity of a transport may matter much more to some.
 

audioguy

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As I noted above, not everyone would necessarily come to the same conclusion. That said, and at the risk of losing my "audiophile card" -- again -- even if a transport were a tiny bit better, I would still use a server - and now Tidal on a reasonably good streamer. The convenience factor, the ability to listen to music I might never hear (Tidal), the ability to quickly move from one album to the next, etc would (and has) become my defacto listening methodology.

Furthermore, I lost my "audiophile card" long ago when I started listening to 2 channel music up-mixed with AuroMatic or DTS:Neural-X !!!
 

microstrip

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System consisted of Magico Q5's, supplemented with REL subs; all Spectral electronics, dCS source, some esoteric turntable, all in a room initially custom designed (by the same guy that did Mike Lavigne's room) but since modified by the owner of Tube Traps. One of the very best 2 or 3 two channel rooms I have ever heard anywhere. Ever. We also had another server there ( it was mine) and was built by qSonix who has since folded. The qSonix server did not outperform the dCS transport, but was easily equal to it, and did cost a bunch less.

No magic to our testing methodology. All of his equipment is in a separate room behind his listening room. Both the servers (both of them) and transport were connected to different inputs on his dCS up-sampler/DAC. We had a disc in the transport and the same music available on the servers. The guy operating the equipment would randomly play one source or the other, and then the same music on the other source and then the other source. The listener's job was to note their preference and why. Music was changed to include many types. Each of us, not knowing what the source was, ALWAYS chose the non qSonix server as our preference over the transport. ALWAYS. The server (Music Vault) was built by Sound Science. For this test, it was a loaner from the company. We both bought one as a result of this comparison and it is still what I use. Are their better servers available now? Probably, but I am perfectly happy with this product as is the guy who owned the system we used for comparison purposes.

Conclusions: All servers are not created equal and can equal or exceed the performance of some of the best transports.

Thanks for the details. Have you essentially repeated the listening you did and reported 6 years ago exactly with same results? http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?3483-JR-or-Media-Monkey
 

microstrip

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The owner of an excellent, highly resolving system, and myself compared my CD transport to his file playback using the latest Roon upgrade. We both agreed that the transport clearly beat file playback in separation of instruments and musical lines, in high-frequency resolution and lack of grain, and in overall cleanness of sound. While my Simaudio Moon CD transport was superior to file playback, an Oppo universal transport playing back CD performed at about the same level as the file.

The system's owner now intends to buy the Simaudio Moon CD transport.

Another example where physical CD playback was judged superior to file playback is discussed in this thread:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?23334-Transport-to-Spin-Red-book-CD-s

Al,
Sorry to bother you, but "excellent, highly resolving system2 is meaningless for exchange of opinions unless you give us enough details ...

The transport/file server question does not have an unique answer - it is clear it depends on system. IMHO the only value of debating it is learning from the details of others systems and their opinions.
 

Al M.

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Al,
Sorry to bother you, but "excellent, highly resolving system is meaningless for exchange of opinions unless you give us enough details ...

The transport/file server question does not have an unique answer - it is clear it depends on system.

Micro, the details of the system are completely and utterly irrelevant. Instead of "excellent, highly resolving system" I could also have said "system" -- it was good enough to allow for the differences to be clearly and easily heard. That's all what counts.

I know that server is not the same as server (the files were played through a dedicated Mac, I believe) and neither is transport the same as transport. Point is that not automatically file replay is better than transport -- but you have experienced this yourself, so I don't need to convince you.

If some people don't accept the premise that a transport in some instances can sound better than a file, then this is not rooted in reality. More likely, it is based on technical dogma. We know where technical dogma has lead us, namely to "perfect sound forever". Not that I complain about CD quality as it can currently be experienced in the least -- but it took us several decades to get where we are now.
 

caesar

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No absolution in one over the other but I think a well made server is more versatile and can be used on any dac
The transport lovers like to hold the media like vinyl and I do feel the overall connection to there dac as Ina stack.
Msb , Vivaldi and the rest top stuff with pride of ownership sprinkleled on top.

I understand what you are saying, but I think SGM owners are very proud also
 

caesar

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System consisted of Magico Q5's, supplemented with REL subs; all Spectral electronics, dCS source, some esoteric turntable, all in a room initially custom designed (by the same guy that did Mike Lavigne's room) but since modified by the owner of Tube Traps. One of the very best 2 or 3 two channel rooms I have ever heard anywhere. Ever. We also had another server there ( it was mine) and was built by qSonix who has since folded. The qSonix server did not outperform the dCS transport, but was easily equal to it, and did cost a bunch less.

No magic to our testing methodology. All of his equipment is in a separate room behind his listening room. Both the servers (both of them) and transport were connected to different inputs on his dCS up-sampler/DAC. We had a disc in the transport and the same music available on the servers. The guy operating the equipment would randomly play one source or the other, and then the same music on the other source and then the other source. The listener's job was to note their preference and why. Music was changed to include many types. Each of us, not knowing what the source was, ALWAYS chose the non qSonix server as our preference over the transport. ALWAYS. The server (Music Vault) was built by Sound Science. For this test, it was a loaner from the company. We both bought one as a result of this comparison and it is still what I use. Are their better servers available now? Probably, but I am perfectly happy with this product as is the guy who owned the system we used for comparison purposes.

Conclusions: All servers are not created equal and can equal or exceed the performance of some of the best transports.

Hi Audioguy,
Out of curiosity, how did the sound of the room change going from the Rivers design to the ASC tube trap approach? And what was physically changed/ products swapped out? Thanks!
 

caesar

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No need to worry about any audiophile card. No 2 systems are the same, as rooms, preferences, and philosophies are all different. Quoting Shakespeare's As You Like it:"...But Oh, how bitter a thing it is to look into happiness through another man’s eyes..."
 

caesar

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Micro, the details of the system are completely and utterly irrelevant. Instead of "excellent, highly resolving system" I could also have said "system" -- it was good enough to allow for the differences to be clearly and easily heard. That's all what counts.

I know that server is not the same as server (the files were played through a dedicated Mac, I believe) and neither is transport the same as transport. Point is that not automatically file replay is better than transport -- but you have experienced this yourself, so I don't need to convince you.

If some people don't accept the premise that a transport in some instances can sound better than a file, then this is not rooted in reality. More likely, it is based on technical dogma. We know where technical dogma has lead us, namely to "perfect sound forever". Not that I complain about CD quality as it can currently be experienced in the least -- but it took us several decades to get where we are now.

Hi Al, but what could the mechanism be to spawn these differences?
 

Alrainbow

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I in no way mean any malice dornthere efforts
From what I hear it's a fantastic product. I meant no comparisons. He was here in NYC and was coming to my place but it did not work out. I wanted to compare to my own server.
 

microstrip

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Micro, the details of the system are completely and utterly irrelevant. Instead of "excellent, highly resolving system" I could also have said "system" -- it was good enough to allow for the differences to be clearly and easily heard. That's all what counts.

I know that server is not the same as server (the files were played through a dedicated Mac, I believe) and neither is transport the same as transport. Point is that not automatically file replay is better than transport -- but you have experienced this yourself, so I don't need to convince you.

If some people don't accept the premise that a transport in some instances can sound better than a file, then this is not rooted in reality. More likely, it is based on technical dogma. We know where technical dogma has lead us, namely to "perfect sound forever". Not that I complain about CD quality as it can currently be experienced in the least -- but it took us several decades to get where we are now.

You fail to understated we are debating preferences in systems, and without system details these posts are meaningless declarations. For me the high-end is not a democratic structure where quality is decided by polls and each vote has equal value. IMHO the interest of opinions is mainly created by the system that supports them, not in sound philosophy or dogmas. As always YMMV.
 
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Al M.

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Hi Al, but what could the mechanism be to spawn these differences?

One word: Noise.

Digital is extremely susceptible to noise, and computers/servers have their noise problems. Not that they cannot be overcome, but success apparently does not come automatically.

(There may be other issues, but this strikes me as the potential main contender.)
 

Al M.

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You fail to understated we are debating preferences in systems, and without system details these posts are meaningless declarations..

The only system details that could matter in this case would be if server or transport would be matched to the DAC by a linking mechanism specific to the transport/DAC or server/DAC unit, or by specific manufacturer's 'voicing' of a transport or server to their DAC, giving one or the other configuration an inherent advantage. Neither was the case here.
 

MadFloyd

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Al is referring to my system.

I run a dedicated Win10 i7 machine optimized for audio as a Roon server. From there it feeds my Vivaldi Upsampler and then into my Vivaldi DAC.

Al's CD transport is clearly better than my server setup.

I have all my files both locally and on a NAS (so I can stream them from either location) and I've played with direct ethernet vs fiber.

There seems to be a lack of transparency when playing files that is now evident after playing CDs. Of course this could be something in my setup, but I will now never poo-poo anyone choosing to spin discs.
 

microstrip

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Al is referring to my system.

I run a dedicated Win10 i7 machine optimized for audio as a Roon server. From there it feeds my Vivaldi Upsampler and then into my Vivaldi DAC.

Al's CD transport is clearly better than my server setup.

I have all my files both locally and on a NAS (so I can stream them from either location) and I've played with direct ethernet vs fiber.

There seems to be a lack of transparency when playing files that is now evident after playing CDs. Of course this could be something in my setup, but I will now never poo-poo anyone choosing to spin discs.

Thanks for the details - they are interesting, as we have similar set up's. My filer server is a non optimized Win7 running Roon and a Synology NAS feeding the upsampler through a router. No way I would say that the server lacks transparency - but the dedicated Vivaldi transport has significantly more live in it, being able to play transients without being tiresome.

Are you feeding the Vivaldi DAC clock back in the upsampler?
 

MadFloyd

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audioguy

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Thanks for the details. Have you essentially repeated the listening you did and reported 6 years ago exactly with same results? http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?3483-JR-or-Media-Monkey

Close. Lots of changes to the server since then. It is entirely possible that many of the newer transports would shift our decision. But at this point, it would not be enough to cancel out all of the upsides of the server approach that I have grown accustomed to (and spoiled by!!).
 

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