super daft question - is there such a thing as a neutral cartridge???

Loheswaran

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Dec 19, 2014
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Hello All

I see that there is a whole world of carts out there - I'm sure you all know more than I can name.

But what are people looking for? With amps and speakers I personally look for neutrality. Cartridges Cleary have distinctive flavours so to speak - some majoring on dynamics, others warmth etc. Doesn't that take away from neutrality? Or am I being a luddite and missing something?

I am on the lookout for a cartridge for my new tonearm - a Helius Omega with ceramic bearings - I understand it has a mid/forward balance and am therefore looking for a cartridge that is the opposite of this so to speak.

thanks - I would appreciate the discussion ladies and gents
 

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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Interesting question and one that is very difficult to answer, IMHO. Firstly, there is a question as to how one can even audition cartridges prior to purchase...see my thread: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?23640-A-new-cartridge-what-criteria
Then we have to be sure that the ancillary gear is not contributing to our perception of the sound from the cartridge....neutral with one set-up may be completely colored on another. Since you seem to know the sound of your ancillary gear...including the Helius tonearm,it looks like you are in fact looking for a cartridge that is anything but neutral! Perhaps one that has a bass/recessed balance?? Very hard to figure what that is going to be, IMO.
 
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Tango

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I also very much would like to read a discussion on this question. For me, I look for cartridge that gives good realism and draw me into musical performance. It could be neutral (if there is such thing) or not neutral I dont really care much. Different flavours make interesting listening experiences imo. Ten singers can have all different voices and each could give excellent singing performance in own way....same to cartridges. Maybe a neutral cart is the one that is true to source. But since I was never at the recording venue, I have no reference for comparison and never gonna know. The whole system probably have to be neutral too and this get even more complicated.

Kind regards,
Tang
 

Loheswaran

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2014
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Interesting question and one that is very difficult to answer, IMHO. Firstly, there is a question as to how one can even audition cartridges prior to purchase...see my thread: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?23640-A-new-cartridge-what-criteria
Then we have to be sure that the ancillary gear is not contributing to our perception of the sound from the cartridge....neutral with one set-up may be completely colored on another. Since you seem to know the sound of your ancillary gear...including the Helius tonearm,it looks like you are in fact looking for a cartridge that is anything but neutral! Perhaps one that has a bass/recessed balance?? Very hard to figure what that is going to be, IMO.

Hi Davey - much like you said about cartridges being un-auditionable (is there such a word??? ;) ) I got the Helius on the basis that I recall hearing a Void with the old Helius Cyalene. I also have a soft spot for non-establishment brands. I then read a review by Hi-World and they tested it and found it had a bit frequency forward balance - as such one ought to 'neutralise' it with a slightly recessed mid I guess.
 

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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La Jolla, Calif USA
Hi Davey - much like you said about cartridges being un-auditionable (is there such a word??? ;) ) I got the Helius on the basis that I recall hearing a Void with the old Helius Cyalene. I also have a soft spot for non-establishment brands. I then read a review by Hi-World and they tested it and found it had a bit frequency forward balance - as such one ought to 'neutralise' it with a slightly recessed mid I guess.

I think the problem that you face here is that you are trying to essentially equalize an imbalance in your system's sound. The old days where equalizer's were common would certainly hold out benefits for such a task. However, i am of the opinion that today, without such a gadget, one is better off either a) realizing that the system is colored and accepting that coloration or b) replacing the offending gear that is recognized to be coloring up the sound. The latter is more difficult to accomplish and leads to a variety of other issues...as you are now finding out. Surprising in a way that the equalizer of yore has no place in today's hobby...I, for one, would think that a high end equalizer would have some significant demand and utility. Hmmm...:confused:

BTW, didn't Mark Levinson bring out such a device a few years ago within his Cello line....didn't seem to catch on too well, but the benefit would seem to be obvious.
 

Al M.

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Surprising in a way that the equalizer of yore has no place in today's hobby...I, for one, would think that a high end equalizer would have some significant demand and utility. Hmmm...:confused:

BTW, didn't Mark Levinson bring out such a device a few years ago within his Cello line....didn't seem to catch on too well, but the benefit would seem to be obvious.

I am optimizing (equalizing) the bass with the volume control of the subwoofer for each recording. I refuse to accept at face value the often either overblown or meatless bass on recordings due to the drunken stupor of the mixing engineer ;). The bass just varies too wildly between recordings (and no, it's not just my system, I notice the same thing on uber systems too). On the other hand, for midrange and treble I rarely wish for equalization.
 

microstrip

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Hello All

I see that there is a whole world of carts out there - I'm sure you all know more than I can name.

But what are people looking for? With amps and speakers I personally look for neutrality. Cartridges Cleary have distinctive flavours so to speak - some majoring on dynamics, others warmth etc. Doesn't that take away from neutrality? Or am I being a luddite and missing something?

I am on the lookout for a cartridge for my new tonearm - a Helius Omega with ceramic bearings - I understand it has a mid/forward balance and am therefore looking for a cartridge that is the opposite of this so to speak.

thanks - I would appreciate the discussion ladies and gents

A neutral cartridge? IMHO there is not such a think, although forty years ago it would be synonymous with a Shure V15 in a SME3009 arm ... As far as I remember, at that time moving coils were sometimes considered as a departure from neutrality, due to the extra excitement and detail they brought to LP reproduction compared to moving magnets. :)
 

microstrip

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(...) BTW, didn't Mark Levinson bring out such a device a few years ago within his Cello line....didn't seem to catch on too well, but the benefit would seem to be obvious.

I owned the ML Audio Palette - unfortunately I soon found I was not listening to music anymore, I was playing with the six wheels all the time ...
 

ddk

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May 18, 2013
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A neutral cartridge? IMHO there is not such a think, although forty years ago it would be synonymous with a Shure V15 in a SME3009 arm ... As far as I remember, at that time moving coils were sometimes considered as a departure from neutrality, due to the extra excitement and detail they brought to LP reproduction compared to moving magnets. :)

Things haven't changed much since then Micro. I find the 3012-R & a good MM cartridge still more neutral than any MC I've tried but that doesn't mean that they're bad or wrong. I generally find that even the most neutral MC cartridges have some additive qualities but since it's a combination I can't tell you wether it's from the transformer or cartridge. Personally I find it much easier to identify a cartridge as "Natural" than "Neutral" which pleasantly opens the doors to enjoying a variety of different cartridges at all kinds of price points.

Hello All

I see that there is a whole world of carts out there - I'm sure you all know more than I can name.

But what are people looking for? With amps and speakers I personally look for neutrality. Cartridges Cleary have distinctive flavours so to speak - some majoring on dynamics, others warmth etc. Doesn't that take away from neutrality? Or am I being a luddite and missing something?

I am on the lookout for a cartridge for my new tonearm - a Helius Omega with ceramic bearings - I understand it has a mid/forward balance and am therefore looking for a cartridge that is the opposite of this so to speak.

thanks - I would appreciate the discussion ladies and gents

IMO don't run after a so called "Neutral" cartridge which might never sound that way in your system, IME a "Natural" cartridge with some subtle beauty to it's character is more satisfying long term. I know nothing about your arm or the rest of your system to make any recommendations and the forward sound you describe can be the phono cable too unless you know it well.

david
 

Loheswaran

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2014
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Hi DDK

Interesting what you say about MM's - very similar to this link:
http://www.regonaudio.com/Stanton881AudioTechnicaATML70.html

As it happens I have a Pickering XSV4000 (it came with a turntable I bought) I found it to be utterly enlightening - it has none of the airhead MC magic I get from my Transfiguration - but is that false??

I am still dicing on which deck to place my new arm - it is highly likely to go into a Sony TTS 8000, or alternatively (if it is fixed a JVC QL10/tt101) I am putting together a super plinth at present
Phono Vendetta SCP2a - LAvardin IT amp - Yamaha NS 1000m speakers - Nordost Heimdall 2 speaker cables - LAvardin interconnects
 

ddk

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May 18, 2013
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Hi DDK

Interesting what you say about MM's - very similar to this link:
http://www.regonaudio.com/Stanton881AudioTechnicaATML70.html

As it happens I have a Pickering XSV4000 (it came with a turntable I bought) I found it to be utterly enlightening - it has none of the airhead MC magic I get from my Transfiguration - but is that false??

I am still dicing on which deck to place my new arm - it is highly likely to go into a Sony TTS 8000, or alternatively (if it is fixed a JVC QL10/tt101) I am putting together a super plinth at present
Phono Vendetta SCP2a - LAvardin IT amp - Yamaha NS 1000m speakers - Nordost Heimdall 2 speaker cables - LAvardin interconnects

Given your system and speakers I'd try the Pickering first and then try it against something with more body like an Ortofon SL-15 and dump the Nordost! That Nordost is on the thin and nonmusical side of things, a very poor match for fine monitor speakers like your Yamaha.

david
 

Loheswaran

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2014
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258
Hi David

I am not familiar with the Ortofon SL15 - are they currently in production?

thanks

Lohan
 

ddk

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May 18, 2013
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Hi David

I am not familiar with the Ortofon SL15 - are they currently in production?

thanks

Lohan

Hi Lohan,

SL15 is vintage Ortofon, I didn't think you'd mind given your system and that they're not that difficult to find otherwise I can make current productions recommendations based on your budget. Typically the value leaders are Denon, AT and Ortofon and then we go on up from there.

David
 

Loheswaran

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2014
432
99
258
Hi David

I have seen an NOS example for around 1000. I am not entirely certain about budget as yet. I may try and source an SL15 as I have a soft spot for mixing vintage and modern in my system. BTW - just ordered an FR 64S - maybe that may house an arm...

dear oh dear I may end up with a multi arm table LOL

thanks
 

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
6,261
4,040
995
Utah
Hi David

I have seen an NOS example for around 1000. I am not entirely certain about budget as yet. I may try and source an SL15 as I have a soft spot for mixing vintage and modern in my system. BTW - just ordered an FR 64S - maybe that may house an arm...

dear oh dear I may end up with a multi arm table LOL

thanks

That's ballpark price for a good NOS sample but you know with vintage prices can vary drastically, get the type with built in transformer. I'm looking for a tt to accommodate 6 arms, there's never enough of a good thing :)!

david
 

bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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I owned the ML Audio Palette - unfortunately I soon found I was not listening to music anymore, I was playing with the six wheels all the time ...

That's audiophile OCD. How did it sound though
 

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