LINN Klimax DS3 vs Lumin S1

Bobvin · Aug 6, 2017

Ignoring format playing possibilities, has anyone compared these two streamers in their system. I've heard the Klimax briefly in my system when my speakers were being setup, but I've not heard the Lumin. Big price difference. My Wilson setup guy says the Linn compares very favorably to some of the very best—he is not saying as good as DCS or latest MSB, but extremely competitive given price differential (and I do trust his judgement.)

I am considering a streamer to replace my dedicated computer/ARC DAC8. I already have a Synology NAS.

asiufy · Aug 6, 2017

Hi Bob!

We had that Lumin in the store (traded in for an MSB Analog DAC). It was OK, but the Linn is in another league.

Have you seen Alan Sircom's review?

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/linn-klimax-ds-digital-streamer/?page=2

"[FONT=&quot]I’ve not heard every single digital device, but I’ve heard a lot of them, and new Klimax is the best of the ones I’ve heard, or at least the best I’ve heard that don’t cost as much as a decent luxury car. And even at the super-lofty end of high-end digital, the Klimax DS stands with the best of them, and even shows a clean pair of heels to some of audio’s upper echelon with ease. It might even be the best of all of them, and therefore comes profoundly recommended."
[/FONT]
He didn't mention other brands by name, but I've heard from Linn that he was specifically comparing it to a dCS Vivaldi.

To me, the Linn was the 2nd best digital I've ever heard. Only the SELECT II was better. Now, with the MSB REF, it's now 3rd best

But still, the "one-box" solution is great, and for the price, it's amazing.

Since you already have the NAS, it's only a matter of installing an UPNP server in there, like MinimServer, and getting the Linn in there for an audition!

cheers,
Alex

Kippyy · Aug 6, 2017

I have the Linn Klimax DSM 3 and love it. I found it to sound demonstrably better than the DCS Scarlatti in a home demo.
Easy to use with lots of flexibility in setup.
Sounds great with my Wilsons

heihei · Aug 6, 2017

I've heard the Linn extensively (upgraded Katalyst version and old) and it is very good. It is easily outperformed IMHO by the Lampizator Golden Gate however (as is the dCS Vivaldi).
Linn vs dCS would be a difficult call and would likely be down to personal preference and cost - the dCS majors on detail and if that is something you like, then the Linn is going to be lacking. However, if you want more of a flow to the music, then you may prefer the Linn. The Lampizator gives best of both worlds - the accuracy and detail of the dCS but with the natural timbre and space to the music of Linn.

Bobvin · Aug 6, 2017

heihei said:
I've heard the Linn extensively (upgraded Katalyst version and old) and it is very good. It is easily outperformed IMHO by the Lampizator Golden Gate however (as is the dCS Vivaldi).
Linn vs dCS would be a difficult call and would likely be down to personal preference and cost - the dCS majors on detail and if that is something you like, then the Linn is going to be lacking. However, if you want more of a flow to the music, then you may prefer the Linn. The Lampizator gives best of both worlds - the accuracy and detail of the dCS but with the natural timbre and space to the music of Linn.

The Golden Gate is a DAC though, yes? Does it behave as a streamer? One of my goals is to eliminate a computer from the digital flow.

I am somewhat biased towards companies with long success in the marketplace, as long term service and support are important considerations. And Linn, with upgrade to new Katalist, gave prior owners their old parts back in a different housing/box. That speaks highly of their level of appreciation to owners of their products. However, overall performance/price ratio are largest factors for me.

GuillaumeB · Aug 7, 2017

I had the Linn Klimax DS/3 here for a few hours a couple of months ago.

I used to own the original Klimax DS which was upgraded a couple of times over a period of 5 years, including one time when the innards were repackaged into a new box and returned to me (they called this the Klimax Renew). This enabled me to cover the cost of the upgrade!

So what was it like going back to the Linn KDS?

First of all I was super impressed by how quickly it booted up and found my NAS on the network. The Kazoo app was a pleasure to use. Through this app I was able to access my Qobuz account in a matter of minutes. No fuss, everything just worked.

I played the Linn KDS through my Absolare Integrated, essentially replacing both my Totaldac d1 server and d1-six DAC in the chain.

The first thing that struck me was that it was still the Linn sound although hugely more refined than I remembered it sounding. Very musical and engaging, real foot tapping stuff. There was something with the timing of the sound that really grabbed me, it was so fast compared to the Totaldac!

A few hours in I began to think that I was missing the Totaldac though. Being so used to the Totaldac sound the Linn sounded tonally brighter and more "digital" in contrast. There were things that really enticed me with the Linn though: the ease of use, 1 box instead of two, great detail and timing.

The timing was so good that it certainly got me thinking.

Overall a very impressive product.

Guillaume

asiufy · Aug 7, 2017

Hi Guillaume!

You nailed a few of the positives of the Linn. In this age of cobbled together digital products, and chinese knock-offs, the Linn is a breath of fresh air. I love the Kazoo app, it's by far the fastest way to navigate through my 20k albums. Even Roon can't touch it for sheer speed of access.

Now, R2R DACs do certain things that other DACs just can't. The naturalness and truthness of timbre is really unique to R2Rs. I know because the MSB has an edge on the Linn in that very aspect.

But one thing that impressed me with the Linn was its fluidity, presence, and sheer lack of harshness. Things just popped on the soundstage, truly impressive stuff.

At the end of the day, these things are very system-dependant.

cheers,
alex

Bobvin · Aug 7, 2017

What is an R2R DAC?

audio.bill · Aug 7, 2017

R2R refers a resistor-to-resistor DAC architecture, also referred to as a ladder or resistor ladder DAC. They require precise matching of resistor values and in some high end implementations are built with discrete laser matched resistors. There are also some R2R DAC chips but not many are still in production. MSB uses R2R designs for their DACs, as do companies like Metrum Acoustics and many others that find their sonic performance to significantly outperform the alternatives. Here are some references detailing R2R DAC architectures. Hope this helps!

Al M. · Aug 7, 2017

audio.bill said:
There are also some R2R DAC chips but not many are still in production.

While audio R2R DAC chips now are rare, Schiit uses modern industrial R2R DAC chips, designed for medical and military purposes, such as Analog Devices AD5791 (two of those in the phenomenal Yggdrasil DAC).

Schiit's digital designer is Mike Moffat, a digital pioneer of Theta Digital fame.

audio.bill · Aug 7, 2017

Al M. said:
While audio R2R DAC chips now are rare, Schiit uses modern industrial R2R DAC chips, designed for medical and military purposes, such as Analog Devices AD5791 (two of those in the phenomenal Yggdrasil DAC).

Schiit's digital designer is Mike Moffat, a digital pioneer of Theta Digital fame.

Very true, and the AD DAC that they use is actually not recommended for use in audio applications by the designer. There were some significant issues which MM had to overcome with that DAC, particularly regarding having to minimize its excessive glitching. I read that the chip's designer was very surprised but pleased to see it being so successfully used in an audio DAC with MM's unique implementation.

Al M. · Aug 7, 2017

audio.bill said:
Very true, and the AD DAC that they use is actually not recommended for use in audio applications by the designer. There were some significant issues which MM had to overcome with that DAC, particularly regarding having to minimize its excessive glitching. I read that the chip's designer was very surprised but pleased to see it being so successfully used in an audio DAC with MM's unique implementation.

All very good points, Bill.

If I read correctly, MM managed to bring the glitching energy to -20 dB on an already -90 dB signal, thus virtually inaudible.

opus112 · Aug 7, 2017

audio.bill said:
R2R refers a resistor-to-resistor DAC architecture, also referred to as a ladder or resistor ladder DAC.

The '2' in 'R2R' does actually mean the number '2' not 'to'. There are two values of resistor in the resistor ladder - a value R and a value of 2R.

They require precise matching of resistor values and in some high end implementations are built with discrete laser matched resistors. There are also some R2R DAC chips but not many are still in production. MSB uses R2R designs for their DACs, as do companies like Metrum Acoustics and many others that find their sonic performance to significantly outperform the alternatives.

Metrum's Octave used a TI chip which was a resistor string DAC, not an R2R. In effect it used a string of equal valued resistors, R. No 2Rs.

audio.bill · Aug 7, 2017

opus112 said:
Metrum's Octave used a TI chip which was a resistor string DAC, not an R2R. In effect it used a string of equal valued resistors, R. No 2Rs.

Newer current Metrum Acoustics models like their Pavane and Adagio use custom built R2R ladder non-oversampling DAC modules according to their website.

opus112 · Aug 7, 2017

Its important to take marketing pronouncements with a pinch of salt. For example they say -

...an extremely high linearity, right down to -144 dB, which gives the Pavane a realistic 24 bit dynamic range.

Nobody has a realistic 24bit dynamic range audio bandwidth DAC.

Al M. · Aug 8, 2017

opus112 said:
Its important to take marketing pronouncements with a pinch of salt. For example they say -

...an extremely high linearity, right down to -144 dB, which gives the Pavane a realistic 24 bit dynamic range.

Nobody has a realistic 24bit dynamic range audio bandwidth DAC.

If I understand correctly, the currently best possible resolution/dynamic range at the output of a DAC is about 20 bit, because of the noise floor of even the best power supplies (not to speak of a further reduction of dynamic range by the subsequent electronics/speakers in the chain). This is different from the ablility to mathematically handle data at 24-bit (or higher) resolution in the digital domain, useful for avoiding losses upon manipulation during mixing/mastering.

opus112 · Aug 8, 2017

20bits sounds a little bit pessimistic, I think the lowest noise DACs these days are under -130dB so more like 21 to 22bits. I'm not sure it would be the power supplies that were the limiting factor - if I wanted to build something close to a 24bit DAC I'd be sure to start with the highest voltage power supply I could manage and then right at the output, step a large output swing down with a transformer to the standard 2V. The limitation is more likely to be resistor noise in an R2R type of DAC.

bonzo75 · Aug 8, 2017

Bobvin said:
The Golden Gate is a DAC though, yes? Does it behave as a streamer? One of my goals is to eliminate a computer from the digital flow.

I am somewhat biased towards companies with long success in the marketplace, as long term service and support are important considerations. And Linn, with upgrade to new Katalist, gave prior owners their old parts back in a different housing/box. That speaks highly of their level of appreciation to owners of their products. However, overall performance/price ratio are largest factors for me.

Hi, no, you will have to get an additional streamer with Lampi. But I know another guy in the UK who preferred the Lampi Golden Gate to the vivaldi plus Upsampler and his incumbent Linn despite having valves far from the best. Price/performance ratio cannot beat the Lampi Big 7.

audio.bill · Aug 8, 2017

opus112 said:
20bits sounds a little bit pessimistic, I think the lowest noise DACs these days are under -130dB so more like 21 to 22bits. I'm not sure it would be the power supplies that were the limiting factor - if I wanted to build something close to a 24bit DAC I'd be sure to start with the highest voltage power supply I could manage and then right at the output, step a large output swing down with a transformer to the standard 2V. The limitation is more likely to be resistor noise in an R2R type of DAC.

I thought you might find the explanation from Metrum's designer of interest, about how he addresses these issues with his use of paralleled DAC modules and FPGAs splitting the 24 bits into two separate streams which are processed and then recombined to improve low level linearity, as well as how he deals with temperature change problems and the Johnson noise inherent in resistors. It is explained in the first page of this review of the Adagio DAC from 6moons. Not disputing anything you claimed, just sharing related information from the designer which I hope you find of interest. Happy listening!

asiufy · Aug 8, 2017

dac-or-network-music-player?

LINN Klimax DS3 vs Lumin S1

VIP/Donor

Industry Expert/VIP Donor

Well-Known Member

VIP/Donor

VIP/Donor

VIP/Donor

Industry Expert/VIP Donor

VIP/Donor

Well-Known Member

VIP/Donor

Well-Known Member

VIP/Donor

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

VIP/Donor

Well-Known Member

Member Sponsor

Well-Known Member

Industry Expert/VIP Donor

Similar threads