Steve Wilson prog rock remixes/remasters, Part One: Yes "Relayer"

spiritofmusic

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I've bought pretty much all the S Wilson remixes for Yes, Tull and King Crimson, thought I'd share some thoughts, and invite views.
Starting w Yes "Relayer".
Steve is rightly lauded as a bit of a protector of the prog flame, I love the guy.
But I'm having issues w the remix.
I have the original lp UK pressing plus Japanese one.
And yes,it's always been a challenging listen, so much crammed in, and an overly bright balance.
But no doubting the dynamics and power on vinyl.
So I eagerly put the new S Wilson remix cd on and was presented with:
Well, a weird schizo combination of vastly increased warmth and some extra detail and transparency (all good).
But also muted dynamics, almost a compression in verve and swing.
So I leant more about the soundstage, but less about the energy of the performance.
A real head scratcher.
 

rbbert

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Wasn't this one of his earlier efforts? I think most of his others (I haven't heard the XTC albums) have been outstanding, and the more recent ones are probably the best. SFTW, Benefit, and Stand Up, Marillion's "Misplaced Childhood", Tales From Topographic Oceans, etc.
 

spiritofmusic

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Rbbert, his Aqualung pre dates Relayer, and is stellar by all accounts.
Relayer seems to suffer the same issues some of his King Crimson remixes do.
"Red" has some transparency advantages over the vinyl, but dynamically sounds a bit flat.
The Moraz Mini Moog/White drums and Crotales call and response on Relayer "Sound Chaser" is really thrilling on the vinyl, just truncated on the remix.
I've never been more conflicted on a remix.
More transparency and warmth v seriously constipated dynamics.
I'd really value anyone's views who's heard both the vinyl, the Marino cd remaster, and this remix.
 

rbbert

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I have problems with the tonal balance on all his KC remixes. OTOH, I think his remixes of the earlier Yes albums (I don't have Relayer) are very good.
 

asiufy

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Playing it right now... DR 16, amazing.
I've an SACD/DSD version that's DR 14. Vinyl rip is DR 13.
The "expanded and remastered" CD is DR 6, pure crap.
I can't find my rip of that japanese CD, but it's awful, by far the worse.
I hear nothing wrong with this one, actually. Balance is perfectly OK, bass is thick and woody as it should be, guitar is actually not harsh, and the drums/cymbals are everywhere, but not harsh either.
Honestly, I don't see what all the fuss is with this backlash against Steven Wilson's job on those classic albums. I'm yet to hear one that his job is anything but stellar. "Tales from Topographic Oceans" is revelatory!
I only wish he did the Genesis remixes instead of that poor sod who ruined the albums for all eternity...
 

spiritofmusic

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Alex, I'm actually comparing this against my Japanese vinyl.
I'm struggling somewhat with its overly smooth and warm balance, it feels as if some dynamic contrast has been lost.
There's no anti SW bias here, I have all the Porcupine Tree albums and some of his solo stuff.
"Coma Divine" remains my most fave sounding live album of all time.
And I can't get enough of what he's done with "Tales..." and "Aqualung".
But I'm struggling a bit w ""Relayer".
My GF is out of the house later, I'll crank it up and play it again, and report back...
 

asiufy

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Ah, got it now...
I think we have "Relayer" on vinyl in the store, I'll give it a spin tomorrow and see how it goes... Probably just a regular US reissue, but I'll see...
 

spiritofmusic

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Alex, don't get me wrong, due to the extra warmth and esp extra transparency in this SW remix, there's a lot of joy to be had hearing "back" into what was originally a pretty dense, impenetrable mix.
But IMHO this is at the expense of some pace and urgency.
On Steve Hoffman Forums, a similarly confused listener put it succinctly: the original mix is like listening TO a full-on orchestral onslaught, the new mix is like listening WITH the musicians run thru a more sedate rehearsal.
Alex, go straight to "Sound Chaser" and the intro Mini Moog & drum/Crotales interplay.
On the vinyl it sounds really pertinent and edge of seat exciting.
On the remix, just so much tamer.
 

853guy

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I've bought pretty much all the S Wilson remixes for Yes, Tull and King Crimson, thought I'd share some thoughts, and invite views.
Starting w Yes "Relayer".
Steve is rightly lauded as a bit of a protector of the prog flame, I love the guy.
But I'm having issues w the remix.
I have the original lp UK pressing plus Japanese one.
And yes,it's always been a challenging listen, so much crammed in, and an overly bright balance.
But no doubting the dynamics and power on vinyl.
So I eagerly put the new S Wilson remix cd on and was presented with:
Well, a weird schizo combination of vastly increased warmth and some extra detail and transparency (all good).
But also muted dynamics, almost a compression in verve and swing.
So I leant more about the soundstage, but less about the energy of the performance.
A real head scratcher.

Hi Spirit,

At a guess, I’d put it down to the fact that A) Steven Wilson has a very low opinion of mastering engineers (1); and/or, B) the potentially less likely possibility there’s been some noise reduction employed to minimise tape hiss from the original master tapes during transfer and/or mixing.

As to A); I get why Wilson does flat transfers from the mix to disc (i.e. with no compression, EQ or enhancement after the master buss on the mixing console - whatever comes out is what goes to disc), bypassing the mastering process altogether. But I’ve heard a number of non-classical/jazz releases that were not mastered for whatever reason, and personally, I continue to believe there’s a reason any good mastering engineer can be worth their weight in gold.

The first is perspective. Having another set of ears can be an invaluable part of the process that should never be underestimated in importance provided that additional perspective is one in which one has a degree of confidence. It’s really easy to fall in love with your own choices, and a trusted counterpart who understands what you’re trying to achieve yet can see things you may be blind to can only ever be a good thing. The horrible truth is that all mixes are somewhat studio dependent - part of the mastering engineer’s job is to ensure the final project works in places other than where it was mixed, and on gear other than whatever mains/mid-fields/near-fields were using by the mixing engineer.

The second is skill. There are lots of people who think that by chucking compression, EQ or various digital software at a project they can make it “better”, in the same way there are lots of people that think by sliding sliders around in Photoshop or Lightroom they can “improve” their image. My experience of having work mastered by others in the past is that the artist is almost always the defining variable, far outweighing the tools at their disposal. Yes, sometimes the tools reach a ceiling beyond which the artist finds themselves limited. But I would much rather a competent mastering engineer with limited tools work on something than a person lacking creative discipline with unlimited resources. Of course, from Wilson’s perspective, that chucking compression, EQ or other enhancements at a project can of course make the project worse (as many here and elsewhere can attest to given the vocal protestations re: the loudness wars) doesn’t make that process redundant in-and-of-itself - the abuse of a tool does not necessarily mean that tool has no utility value - as always, it's the artist not the brush.

As to B), who knows? Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t. In any case, we return to the same truism as above, and at the end of the day, the sole responsibility for the final product only ever lies with the creator, irrespective of tools at his or her disposal. That Wilson prefers to not submit his work to an additional layer of creative/sonic oversight and technological processing may confer him the title of purist or perfectionist (i.e. “control freak”), but that has nothing to do with whether of not the results produced will satisfy anyone other than himself and those present at the mixing desk once the product is played back in a domestic environment, especially when there is already an example of prior art for comparison.


Best,

853guy


(1) “I think people have been brainwashed a lot over the years that mastering engineers do something magical, almost like a black hat, and I think, actually, mastering is not necessary.” https://www.digitaltrends.com/features/interview-steven-wilson-on-high-res-hand-cannot-erase/
 

spiritofmusic

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Sounds plausible, 853.
My guess is in going to tame the infamous Telecaster wielded so brilliantly by S Howe, he's inadvertently muted the whole tonal palette and crazy energy in the recording.
And maybe it's impossible for such a radical remix to in effect become more than just a "momento" of the session rather than anything more valuable.
So, I do love the extra insight, just not the seeming blunting of proceedings.
I really need someone to have heard Relayer over the years on vinyl like I have to offer perspective.
I don't suspect it's a favourite amongst the WBF cognoscenti.
They absolutely love the remix over on S Hoffman Forum.
 

rbbert

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Where did you get the idea that SW does no mastering?? He often includes a "flat transfer" of the original master tape (or the artist or record company asks for it, I don't know), but his remixes always have mastering, and he has posted about that in years past on his Facebook page. In fact, he has been gradually reducing the amount of compression in his masterings as he has become more sensitive to its negative effects on musical enjoyment; some of his earlier projects had quite obvious and a bit annoying compression and peak-limiting. He also uses small amounts of EQ if he can't quite get the effect he wants solely by remixing. It is true that he says he tries to use as few tools as possible to accomplish his goals.
 

853guy

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Where did you get the idea that SW does no mastering?? He often includes a "flat transfer" of the original master tape (or the artist or record company asks for it, I don't know), but his remixes always have mastering, and he has posted about that in years past on his Facebook page. In fact, he has been gradually reducing the amount of compression in his masterings as he has become more sensitive to its negative effects on musical enjoyment; some of his earlier projects had quite obvious and a bit annoying compression and peak-limiting. He also uses small amounts of EQ if he can't quite get the effect he wants solely by remixing. It is true that he says he tries to use as few tools as possible to accomplish his goals.

Hello rbbert,

Where did I get the idea Steven Wilson does no mastering? From the horse’s mouth:


“I know we’ve talked about this before, but I think it’s worth saying again that all of this high-resolution stuff is pointless if the mastering sucks. Bad mastering is more of a problem than things being released at CD resolution, or even MP3s. What’s nice about this move to 96/24 is the amount of things that are coming out in flat transfers — no compression, and no mastering engineers f***ing up the sound. That is a very, very good development in the history of music. (…)

The simple answer is I don’t have any of my work mastered. It goes straight from my mixes — flat transfers onto the disc. And that applies to the mixes I do for the Yes reissues, the XTC reissues, the Jethro Tull reissues, and of course my own work too. And it’s amazing how many of the musicians I speak to, when I say to them, “I don’t want this mastered” — they’re initially shocked. But then they understand. Why would you need this mastered? You’ve approved the masters and you think the mixes sound great, so why would you not just release them as they are?

Now, I’m not saying that’s right for everyone, because some people need or want that extra pair of ears to check what they’ve done. But I’m at the stage now where I’m 100 percent confident that what I produce out of my studio is exactly the way I want people to hear it. I actually bypass mastering completely now.”


Even among mixing and mastering engineers there's a divergence of opinion of what a “flat transfer” is. I can only assume a “flat transfer” in the case of the Yes remixes Spirit is specifically mentioning and Wilson does above most likely means two things: A) The original master tape is transferred to disc and included in the release without any changes - only A/D conversion and/or re-baking of the tapes is utilised; and B) The original master tape is remixed (from the digital transfers of the original master tape provided by the label, not the tape itself), and any changes in level, EQ, compression and effects are applied to individual channels/stems, but the master buss on the console itself is left “flat” (i.e. sans any additional processing), and the mix itself is what ends up on the disc without the secondary influence of a mastering engineer (i.e. “bypass(ing) mastering completely now”.)

Again, it can be debated whether this approach achieves a sound that is preferred by anyone other than Wilson and the band standing in his studio listening to the mix. That he’s 100% confident what he produces is what he wants people to hear via this methodology is not the same as to say the people who end up hearing it will actually prefer it, given it can only be compared to the previous iteration, not one in which it was subjected to the ears and hands of a mastering engineer for a mastered/non-mastered evaluation.

The above is taken from the link I provided in my first post, but here it is again:

https://www.digitaltrends.com/features/interview-steven-wilson-on-high-res-hand-cannot-erase/

Hope that’s a bit clearer.

Best,

853guy
 
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rbbert

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The problem with Facebook postings is that I (at least) can't find those of other people from many years ago, but apparently SW goes back and forth on mastering. In any case, all you have to do is take a careful look at some of his projects, because mixing alone will not cause the hard peak-limiting which can only occur with digital mastering.
 

853guy

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The problem with Facebook postings is that I (at least) can't find those of other people from many years ago, but apparently SW goes back and forth on mastering. In any case, all you have to do is take a careful look at some of his projects, because mixing alone will not cause the hard peak-limiting which can only occur with digital mastering.

Hi rbbert,

No problem. He has had previous releases mastered by a third party (1), but for the Yes remixes/reissues, and for most of his solo work I believe he's doing flat transfers sans mastering.

I have to disagree with your assertion mixing alone will not cause hard peak-limiting. There are plenty of mix engineers smashing stuff during the mix (on individual tracks and stems via comp/limiters), resulting in some well-publicised cases in which the mastering engineer has received the brunt of criticism for albums that were crushed long before they received them. This is often the result of compression and/or limiting being used in tracking, compression of individual tracks, and then compression of the stems, culminating in multiple stages of compression (and the complete erosion of headroom) before it even gets to the mastering suite.

Best,

853guy

(1) "I have gradually taken over all the mastering of my projects and this is the first PT album that I have mastered because I was not happy with the way that professional mastering houses were mastering it. There is a tendency to make everything very loud, to try and get volume at the sacrifice of dynamics and too much treble and too much bass and not enough of that warmth in the middle. You know the pressure has been there from record companies to make CD's sound louder because they notionally sound more exciting that way. But over a period of 50-60 mins it really does start to tire your ears out, and that has been a problem with this CD generation, basically your ears get tired quicker." Steven Wilson, circa 2007.
 
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spiritofmusic

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God, what a minefield!
Ironic, w Relayer quite literally having explosions go off right, left and centre on Gates Of Delerium.
Steve was incensed when his exquisite remixes of Aqualung and Thick As A Brick were butchered by Abbey Road's Peter Mew's loud as Hell re mastering.
Aqualung luckily has been reclaimed by Steve w zero mastering for the boxset I have, but his rescue job for TAAB is only available as a download.
I still need someone to hear the SW Relayer remix cd to confirm what I'm hearing is right.
 
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NorthStar

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This thread is awesome; it brings me back to some of the best moments in my life...when I was in full satisfaction music gear (5th) listening to Tull, Crimson, Doors, Yes, Floyd, Sabbath and the gang.

Meddle, Thick as a Brick, Ummagumma, Aqualung, Tales from Topographic Oceans, Fragile, Close to the Edge, In the Wake of Poseidon, In the Court of Crimson King, Islands, Lizard, Wish you Were Here, The Dark Side of the Moon, A Momentary Lapse of Reason, ... in stereo from vinyls, and in multichannel from SACDs, DVD-Audio and Blu-ray Audio.

Relayer is a great album too (my stereo experience). I can use surround sound processing with that one and fine-tune it in my own rig with the adjustments provided.
It's great to read your take on it spiritofmusic, the new mix remastered from Steve Wilson. Thank you, and keep it up,; I'm on the precipice of living with excitement inspired by your spirit.
 

asiufy

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I did hear the SW remix, and I felt it was fine. I have a run of the mill US pressing from the 70s in the Audio Desk cleaning machine now, will spin it in a bit and see how it compares to the SW digital.
 

spiritofmusic

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Bob, I've never given up listening to this stuff.
Relayer was my bridge to prog, cemented by DSOTM, prolonged by 2112, and broadened by Bitches Brew.
Then augmented by Stravinsky and Bartok.
And all made sense of by Magma.
 

NorthStar

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Bob, I've never given up listening to this stuff.
Relayer was my bridge to prog, cemented by DSOTM, prolonged by 2112, and broadened by Bitches Brew.
Then augmented by Stravinsky and Bartok.
And all made sense of by Magma.

I've never giving up either; that's why I keep rebuying them in hi-res multichannel because in the 70s it sounded already immersing.
I'm big on Tales From Topographic Oceans, the double album and the hi-res multich. Blu-ray Audio.
In the early 70s I also was listening to all the great classical master composers. It was the music I often listened @ night with absolute dedication and time travel within my dreams.
Jazz came alive around that era too; I was assisting to jazz live music and listening to John Coltrane and the gang on LPs.

Meddle and Wish You Were Here I had great souvenirs. Then Atomic Heart Mother, Ummagumma, Animals, The Wall, DSOTM...
Psychedelic Rock and Avant-Garde (Brian Eno, Tangerine Dream, Jean-Michel Jarre, Mike Oldfield, etc.) I was full in (still am, but not as much today as I was then).
My music listening has also evolved and expanded deeper into classical. And Blues and Jazz always remain attached strongly to my soul's chords. I vibrate electrifyingly still. I like it all, Mono...Stereo...Electro-Magneto (Multichannel).

The memories no one can ever hack those. They can steal material stuff but never the spiritual stuff. YES, one of my favorite bands , with the voice of an angel...Jon Anderson. ...And drummer Bill Bruford.

This, Progressive Rock music with a capital "P"...Power, Psychedelic, Pow-Wow.
 

rbbert

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I don't want to wander too far afield, but I do want to point out that digital "hard limiting" has a noticeably different appearance (in an audio editing program) than simple clipping, analog tape saturation or analog compression. And I'm well aware of some of SW's work being "post-mastered" by others prior to release.
 

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