A new cartridge...what criteria?

What factors made me buy my cartridge

  • I heard the cartridge in an unfamiliar system before purchase

    Votes: 7 31.8%
  • I heard the cartridge in my system on my TT

    Votes: 3 13.6%
  • I bought based on reviews

    Votes: 9 40.9%
  • I bought based on prior reputation

    Votes: 6 27.3%
  • I bought a newer version of a cartridge that I already owned

    Votes: 3 13.6%
  • I bought an up-line version of a cartridge that I already owned

    Votes: 6 27.3%
  • I bought based on my dealer's recommendation

    Votes: 3 13.6%
  • I only buy used

    Votes: 2 9.1%
  • I only buy new

    Votes: 5 22.7%

  • Total voters
    22
  • Poll closed .

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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Like a few of us on this site, I am looking into replacing my old cartridge. As some of us have discovered, this process seems to be no easy task! Many variables are involved and the possibility of hearing a cartridge in one's own system is unlikely and remote. ( for obvious reasons).

For those who have gone cartridge shopping and have pulled the trigger on a new cartridge ( or used for that matter) what were the criteria that made you pull the trigger. Where you happy with the result? ( If not, why not?) How many of you bought without first auditioning the model?
 
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JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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I've pulled the trigger on carts unheard but only to around the 3k mark. I figure that is my personal psychological barrier. Everything above that I've bought after hearing on practically the same if not the same tables and arms as I have so there is minimal risk. If there is one criteria I look at closely it is the output voltage. I need to know before hand which phono stages I can use with them. Compliance a little bit but I haven't gone for any particularly high or low compliance carts in a very long time. I'm also fortunate enough to have dealers here who will come by and install their personal carts for demo for nothing but some snacks some beverages and some funny conversation.
 

rockitman

Member Sponsor
Sep 20, 2011
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I have bought Koetsu stone bodies.....Tiger Eye and Coralstone unheard. Great decision. Hearing carts before you buy is impractical and next to impossible in your own system....where it matters, so you are left with hearing it in other systems, reading reviews and relying on brand/model reputation to make your decision.
 

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
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Utah
I used to buy a lot of vintage cartridges off the and over the years found some real gems to justify the risks given the high percentage of duds but buy very little now unless I know what it is. I'm different with modern ones mostly because prices are often prohibitive for experimentation and too many hyped models by people who don't know enough. Previous experience with a legacy brand doesn't add up to much these days many current models are based on different abstracts created by another group of designers which have little or nothing in common with their predecessors. Then there are the pretenders buying 3rd party products and relabeling it as theirs so forget about counting on a house sound. I wouldn't buy a modern expensive cartridge without having heard it first in my own system or at least in a friend's or a client's one that I know well enough and like and certainly not recommend or sell it.

david
 
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DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
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458
La Jolla, Calif USA
Christian, I'm guessing that the most prevalent answer to my poll, will be buying based on reviews. I could be wrong. The one piece of gear that really needs to be matched carefully to one's system is the cartridge- and yet it is one of the most difficult, if not impossible, pieces of gear to actually listen to prior to purchase. I would suspect that there are numerous a'philes that have had bad experiences with their cartridge purchase and have maybe even a) given up on analog or even b) given a certain cartridge a bad rap, that it may or my not deserve, based solely upon a bad interaction between it and the ancillary gear.
What would have happened in you case if the stone bodied Koetsu's that you acquired had in fact NOT worked well in your system...what then; a sale at a considerable loss or what? This is what, I suspect, is the reason that I and others on this site are so hesitant to pull the trigger on big $$ cartridges. Understandably, no return policy and worse, a question as to the overall SQ one will be getting that cannot be answered ( only guessed at) prior to purchase...and the tedious install process!! In the old days, prior to multi thousand $$ models, the decision was a lot easier, the cartridge didn't sound that great, you removed it and in the bin it went. Not so today.
Everyone understands the problem here, I question if there is a solution???

Interesting post ddk. Wonder how many other a'philes share your opinion??
 

mulveling

Well-Known Member
Jul 6, 2017
234
335
168
All over the map here.

Started my vinyl quest with a brand new Glider L2; hadn't heard it but remembered reading a positive review on it years before, and my local hifi shop was a Benz dealer. It was very good; I was pleased, and knew vinyl was going to be my thing. Upgraded to a new Ortofon Kontrapunkt "c" a year later, also unheard (though I did get to audition an "a"), and it was even better. Pleased again, but still I wanted more! Then I experimented for a while, buying various mid-upper line Ortofons and Benzes (e.g. Jubilee, Windfeld, Reference 3) on the used market (mostly Audiogon), with very "meh" results. Disappointing. In the end I didn't attain more musical satisfaction versus the Kontrapunkt -- which I wish I'd kept, since I'm not sure whether I prefer its successor the Cadenza Bronze (currently used in a headphone rig).

Then by chance I got to try a VERY old & tired Koetsu Onyx (Alnico, not Platinum) plugged into my system, and instantly knew that was the sound for me. Pure musical bliss. By now I've bought a number of Koetsu, most used, except for a new Coralstone and an Onyx Platinum I had rebuilt by Koetsu. My used market experience here was very good -- sellers were very honest and meticulous; each used Koetsu I've received has sounded just like a brand new one. You can save a BUNDLE vs. the absolutely crazy US list prices, which seem to be absurdly marked up for no good reason. The Platinums sound different than the old Alnico, the former being more modern and accurate, but both are fabulous.

I still get curious about today's popular fancy cartridges, but remain very happy with my Koetsu children. Haven't pulled the trigger on anything else. I've heard the Ortofon Anna in unfamiliar systems a few times, and it was very nice, a fabulous technical performer in a system with Tannoy Kingdom Royals and top-line VAC electronics, but didn't quite hit that "critical mass" of musicality overall.

My Alnico Onyx is out for rebuild (keeping original magnets), and I've probably got enough good hours on my Koetsus to last until I can't hear well anymore. The Platinum models pair extremely well with my Rogue Ares Magnum (and Sky 40 or 1131 SUT, plus my blend of NOS tubes picked over years of experimentation) -- though superficially appearing to be far below the Koetsu pay grade, I can't complain on its results. The "Magnum" upgrade was a notable improvement, even with external SUT. I tried the new VAC Renaissance phono stage, and preferred the maxed-out Ares. As we all know, cartridge / phono pairing is crucial -- the VAC might actually work very nicely to soften up the top Ortofons, though I didn't get to try that.
 
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DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
181
458
La Jolla, Calif USA
All over the map here.

Started my vinyl quest with a brand new Glider L2; hadn't heard it but remembered reading a positive review on it years before, and my local hifi shop was a Benz dealer. It was very good; I was pleased, and knew vinyl was going to be my thing. Upgraded to a new Ortofon Kontrapunkt "c" a year later, also unheard (though I did get to audition an "a"), and it was even better. Pleased again, but still I wanted more! Then I experimented for a while, buying various mid-upper line Ortofons and Benzes (e.g. Jubilee, Windfeld, Reference 3) on the used market (mostly Audiogon), with very "meh" results. Disappointing. In the end I didn't attain more musical satisfaction versus the Kontrapunkt -- which I wish I'd kept, since I'm not sure whether I prefer its successor the Cadenza Bronze (currently used in a headphone rig).

Then by chance I got to try a VERY old & tired Koetsu Onyx (Alnico, not Platinum) plugged into my system, and instantly knew that was the sound for me. Pure musical bliss. By now I've bought a number of Koetsu, most used, except for a new Coralstone and an Onyx Platinum I had rebuilt by Koetsu. My used market experience here was very good -- sellers were very honest and meticulous; each used Koetsu I've received has sounded just like a brand new one. You can save a BUNDLE vs. the absolutely crazy US list prices, which seem to be absurdly marked up for no good reason. The Platinums sound different than the old Alnico, the former being more modern and accurate, but both are fabulous.

I still get curious about today's popular fancy cartridges, but remain very happy with my Koetsu children. Haven't pulled the trigger on anything else. I've heard the Ortofon Anna in unfamiliar systems a few times, and it was very nice, a fabulous technical performer in a system with Tannoy Kingdom Royals and top-line VAC electronics, but didn't quite hit that "critical mass" of musicality overall.

My Alnico Onyx is out for rebuild (keeping original magnets), and I've probably got enough good hours on my Koetsus to last until I can't hear well anymore. The Platinum models pair extremely well with my Rogue Ares Magnum (and Sky 40 or 1131 SUT, plus my blend of NOS tubes picked over years of experimentation) -- though superficially appearing to be far below the Koetsu pay grade, I can't complain on its results. The "Magnum" upgrade was a notable improvement, even with external SUT. I tried the new VAC Renaissance phono stage, and preferred the maxed-out Ares. As we all know, cartridge / phono pairing is crucial -- the VAC might actually work very nicely to soften up the top Ortofons, though I didn't get to try that.

Very interesting. I am mildly surprised that you had a great experience buying used cartridges. Looking at the poll results so far, no one seems willing to buy used. A Koetsu used would certainly offer up considerable savings over the new ( and somewhat crazy, as you said, pricing) models. Concern I would have is that the stylus is somehow damaged and will result in immediate damage to any record you happen to play. I always question how anyone knows whether the stylus is damaged until after a few plays and the record is damaged ( or worse...many records damaged!). Life and condition of the stylus is another topic that I think I posted about in the past. What I like a lot about most of the Koetsu's is that they typically have a healthy output, ( although not so much with the Platinum models). The new Zyx's are high on my radar right now, but the draw back with them is weak output. If one can accommodate their minimal output, I would think they would be worth further looking into.
 

Uk Paul

Member Sponsor
Sep 27, 2012
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UK
Hi Davey,

Good set of questions; hope your well..

Choosing a cart must be the most difficult aspect of higher end audio, and although it is pretty obvious as to why, it is extremely annoying that one can't use a demo sample before decision time arrives. I would imagine that there is a fair mark up and profit level involved, so why not expect a loaner to be available to serious potential buyers? We all accept that it's not practical for dealers to lend out carts but heck, these things are very expensive for what they are.
It does seem more prevalent these days to make a cart choice based on others experiences with it, reputation goes a long way..
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
181
458
La Jolla, Calif USA
Hi Davey,

Good set of questions; hope your well..

Choosing a cart must be the most difficult aspect of higher end audio, and although it is pretty obvious as to why, it is extremely annoying that one can't use a demo sample before decision time arrives. I would imagine that there is a fair mark up and profit level involved, so why not expect a loaner to be available to serious potential buyers? We all accept that it's not practical for dealers to lend out carts but heck, these things are very expensive for what they are.
It does seem more prevalent these days to make a cart choice based on others experiences with it, reputation goes a long way..

Hi Paul, how are you? Hope all is well with you too.
You post some great points. Why not have a demo cartridge available? I think the answer may be that said demo cartridge could be easily damaged by a prior user, and as such two things become a factor...1) the demo cartridge damages someone's ( the new potential buyer's) vinyl...and 2) the set-up of the cartridge has to be done by someone, question is how competent is that set-up person/dealer? Leading to either an incorrect observation of the SQ of the cartridge under demo....caused by incorrect set-up, or maybe an incompatibility with up-stream components.( which would in of itself be a helpful result).Nonetheless, I personally would appreciate a dealer that would allow one to demo a high priced cartridge as part of the purchase decision! Reputation does indeed seem to go a long way..which is why I put that as one of the choices on the poll, but is that really enough?? It's a difficult subject and a more difficult choice, IMHO.
 
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mulveling

Well-Known Member
Jul 6, 2017
234
335
168
Very interesting. I am mildly surprised that you had a great experience buying used cartridges. Looking at the poll results so far, no one seems willing to buy used. A Koetsu used would certainly offer up considerable savings over the new ( and somewhat crazy, as you said, pricing) models. Concern I would have is that the stylus is somehow damaged and will result in immediate damage to any record you happen to play. I always question how anyone knows whether the stylus is damaged until after a few plays and the record is damaged ( or worse...many records damaged!). Life and condition of the stylus is another topic that I think I posted about in the past. What I like a lot about most of the Koetsu's is that they typically have a healthy output, ( although not so much with the Platinum models). The new Zyx's are high on my radar right now, but the draw back with them is weak output. If one can accommodate their minimal output, I would think they would be worth further looking into.

I tend to believe that if the stylus is borked enough to damage records (more than usual wear), it will be audible, especially in the inner grooves. Don't put your treasured gems on for a first listen! We're a lot that is extremely attentive to proper alignment, tracking force, cleanliness of everything involved, and the overall resultant sound quality. The real groove damage is done by people with cheap analog gear and wild inaccuracies in setup, e.g. 5g+ tracking forces, etc.

But yes, there is definitely some risk involved in buying an expensive used cartridge. Besides the obvious issue of getting an unexpectedly worn stylus from an unscrupulous seller, you could also be screwed if you get one with a highly audible channel imbalance (> 1dB), an obviously skewed cantilever (which affects resale value even if you can adjust alignment for it), or a "low rider" that won't last long before the suspension fails. At that point, your best option may be a factory rebuild if that is available. Ortofon and Koetsu offer full rebuilds for greater than or equal to 50% off the cost of a new cartridge, which I think is awesome. Some other manufacturers only offer a re-tip, or charge much more % wise.

Finding a seller with a long 100% feedback history (especially with cartridge sales) doesn't ensure the transaction will be perfect, but it does mitigate the risk.
 

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
6,261
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Utah
Looking at the poll results so far, no one seems willing to buy used.

It's your poll, "I only buy used" or "I only buy new" doesn't allow people who buy both to reply.

Hi Davey,

Good set of questions; hope your well..

Choosing a cart must be the most difficult aspect of higher end audio, and although it is pretty obvious as to why, it is extremely annoying that one can't use a demo sample before decision time arrives. I would imagine that there is a fair mark up and profit level involved, so why not expect a loaner to be available to serious potential buyers? We all accept that it's not practical for dealers to lend out carts but heck, these things are very expensive for what they are.
It does seem more prevalent these days to make a cart choice based on others experiences with it, reputation goes a long way..

I have no problem demoing cartridges or full tt setups, we'll even do comparative demos with a client's cartridge but how do you demo a rack :)? They cost as much or more than high end cartridges and making the right choice is as important as any other component!

david
 

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
6,261
4,040
995
Utah
Hi Paul, how are you? Hope all is well with you too.
You post some great points. Why not have a demo cartridge available? I think the answer may be that said demo cartridge could be easily damaged by a prior user, and as such two things become a factor...1) the demo cartridge damages someone's ( the new potential buyer's) vinyl...and 2) the set-up of the cartridge has to be done by someone, question is how competent is that set-up person/dealer? Leading to either an incorrect observation of the SQ of the cartridge under demo....caused by incorrect set-up, or maybe an incompatibility with up-stream components.( which would in of itself be a helpful result).Nonetheless, I personally would appreciate a dealer that would allow one to demo a high priced cartridge as part of the purchase decision! Reputation does indeed seem to go a long way..which is why I put that as one of the choices on the poll, but is that really enough?? It's a difficult subject and a more difficult choice, IMHO.

Dealers have demo cartridges and willing to part with them for a reasonable amount of time. Damage risk isn't a deterrent for the dealer when it's covered by the borrower in the loaner agreement, no different than renting high end lenses but many consumers aren't capable of testing them on their own or willing to chance damaging it. Cartridges are consumable will you as a customer agree to a rental fee?

People seem to travel to hear all sorts of equipment so why not cartridges?

david
 

jadis

Well-Known Member
Apr 28, 2010
12,352
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Manila, Philippines
Then by chance I got to try a VERY old & tired Koetsu Onyx (Alnico, not Platinum) plugged into my system, and instantly knew that was the sound for me. Pure musical bliss. By now I've bought a number of Koetsu, most used, except for a new Coralstone and an Onyx Platinum I had rebuilt by Koetsu. My used market experience here was very good -- sellers were very honest and meticulous; each used Koetsu I've received has sounded just like a brand new one. You can save a BUNDLE vs. the absolutely crazy US list prices, which seem to be absurdly marked up for no good reason. The Platinums sound different than the old Alnico, the former being more modern and accurate, but both are fabulous.

I still get curious about today's popular fancy cartridges, but remain very happy with my Koetsu children. Haven't pulled the trigger on anything else.

Long ago I also had the opportunity to buy my first Koetsu (Black with Musashino label on top) as very slightly used from an old friend. He had another worn out Black and this was the spare. I fell in love with it to use it for the next 8 years and on the 9th year I became the country dealers and as such tested almost all models of my inventory to make sure that they worked and had no issues. In the process I also got a Rosewood Signature which I am still using today. I have not been curious about other brands and 99.99% my next cartridge will still be a Koetsu. :) I have asked a seasoned dealer 'what sounds like a Koetsu but is not a Koetsu' and just got a blank stare. :)
 

Uk Paul

Member Sponsor
Sep 27, 2012
516
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UK
Davey, yes all ok here thank you..

Yes you're right about the intricacies of offering a demo cart for sure, but my thoughts are that it only requires some organising and effort from the dealer and manufacturer. With the advent of low cost usb microscopes, checking for damage / defects on the cantilever and stylus is entireley possible, so I don't see too much issue with this. I can understand the hesitation though.

But, your point that reputation is enough or not is good, and my thought's are that it is probably the most influential factor when making a shortlist. The more positive talk of a particular product, the higher it gets on the list imo. My own situation, being like you looking at adding a new cart at some point soon, is that I have to rely on previous experiences, web talk, and hands on experience. Of the carts i am listing, only one I have real experience with which is a DV XV-1S. Others being the Allnic Putitas which I have never heard, and the London Ref which will be on my SME-V which is pretty much decided. There is an option on a VdH Colibri in the mix also, for my SAEC 506 which is where the other MC will live. All run into the Allnic H-3000.

A good friend selected a Lyra Etns last year based soleley on reading up on many carts, and he is very happy with his choice, and it is very nice indeed and suits his system well.
 

Uk Paul

Member Sponsor
Sep 27, 2012
516
183
955
UK
It's your poll, "I only buy used" or "I only buy new" doesn't allow people who buy both to reply.



I have no problem demoing cartridges or full tt setups, we'll even do comparative demos with a client's cartridge but how do you demo a rack :)? They cost as much or more than high end cartridges and making the right choice is as important as any other component!

david

Hello David,

A very good point there, demoing a rack is even more difficult! My thinking is that buyers buy into the science (inc material choice) firstly, followed by aesthetics which vary in importance from person to person, enough to investigate further. I will demo in the UK but overseas is obviously not possible, though I have invested in audio shows but this gets costly very quickly so I have to limit them even though I would really love the opportunity to do 2 or 3 per year.
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
181
458
La Jolla, Calif USA
Demo'ing a rack is indeed a good point. This year, I was able to demo the carbon fibre shelf on my recently acquired Grand Prix Monco amp stand. It was no easy task, as moving the amp on and off the stand requires two people and it takes some amount of time. However, the potential for damage to the rack and the shelf were minimal compared to what could be done to a new cartridge! The ability to truly determine the differences between the stand with and without the CF shelf was very difficult. I actually felt that with my amp and in my system, the difference was not that great...and so opted not to acquire the shelf. However, the seller of the stand was kind enough to let me do the demo, which is something that I suspect would not happen if it was a cartridge ( for the reasons that have already been stated).
Getting back to Uk Paul's point about reading up about the SQ of gear, I suspect that far more gear is bought just on this one factor alone and actual audition never happens prior to purchase! Which with cartridges and racks makes some sense ( although I think the risk factor increases tremendously because of this..), but with other gear makes little sense to me at all.
 

gian60

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2016
2,503
1,943
343
I am lucky because I have 10 friends leaving near my home,Maximo 60 km far with
Atlas,Audio Note IO Limited 6 litz,Jan Allerts MC2 Formula one,Zyx Diamond
Kondo IOM,Ikeda,Shelter Harmony,Air tight supreme,Proteus,Clearaudio Insider
Coralstone,Blue Lace,dynavector XV1T,
Shilabe,art 1000,plus mine
 

harleyguy

VIP/Donor
Mar 6, 2015
134
18
248
i am lucky because i have 10 friends leaving near my home,maximo 60 km far with
atlas,audio note io limited 6 litz,jan allerts mc2 formula one,zyx diamond
kondo iom,ikeda,shelter harmony,air tight supreme,proteus,clearaudio insider
coralstone,blue lace,dynavector xv1t,
shilabe,art 1000,plus mine

how does he like the blue lace
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
181
458
La Jolla, Calif USA
That's very lucky, gian60! How did you get to listen to your prior Lyra Atlas before you made the purchase? I would think that is a very expensive cartridge to make a mistake with, luckily it is in high demand and the regular version has very decent output. ( BUT not the SL version, which, IF I remember correctly when reviewed by MF- he stated that one had to be very careful of this issue....)
 

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