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Thread: Speaker Shootout - Two of the Most Accurate and Well Reviewed Speakers Ever Made

  1. #41
    [Industry Expert] Addicted to Best! DaveC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCAudiophile View Post
    I definitely agree with DaveC here;

    "With an amp that works well they are amazing tweeters though, probably the best dome tweeter ever."

    The tweeter and the concentric driver approach as a whole are the best I've ever heard when paired with the right amplification and cabling.
    As for the woofers, same caveat,....under good circumstances, the fastest and most tuneful bass driver I've heard...
    I just wish you didn't have to buy the R-1s to get that bass!
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  2. #42
    Addicted to Best! sbo6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveC View Post
    I just wish you didn't have to buy the R-1s to get that bass!
    Pick up a few JL Audio F112s and you'd be set...
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  3. #43
    VIP/Donor [VIP/Donor] microstrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marty View Post
    I've not seen this thread or the shoot out previously. What impressed me the most was a summary comment by Floyd Toole:

    "If you have a neutral reproducing system, simply add an elaborate equalizer/tone control and you can play with different sounds to your heart's content - at negligible cost and complication to your life. However, as you say, some of the "fun" may be missing. For me the "fun" is enjoying the staggering amount of music and movie content that is out there, not worrying about whether I am hearing everything important. My system is well past the point of diminishing returns in terms of sound quality. Tone controls are still useful, though, because recordings are not consistent."

    We all have some degradation in our hearing as we get older. Hopefully, this is augmented by increased wisdom. Toole's extensive experience seems to embody both. Put more simply, it really is all about the music.
    Marty,

    I consider the F. Toole book an excellent reference text in sound reproduction, particularly Part One - Understanding the Principles, have read it carefully, some parts more than once, and learned a lot from it. However I (and many others) disagree with the limited view of stereo capabilities endorsed by F. Toole, and specially the self-justifying sentence " it really is all about the music" or the use the degradation of our hearing to excuse system compromises. For example, as you know, David Wilson has told how we compensate for this loss in frequency response from timing, and unless we are strongly affected by hearing losses, sometimes older people are critical listeners and enjoy better high quality reproduction.

    Although this hobby (being an audiophile) is about the music, IMHO it is not exclusively all about the music, and here most audiophiles and audio designers part with F. Toole. We must see that his stereo approach is different from ours - what he considers non relevant is the essence of our fun : the ultimate capabilities of stereo reproduction.

    F. Toole has always openly exposed his very negative opinions about the high-end and our preferences, even about particular subjects such as expensive electronics, cables and tweaks. He is surely a great scientist, respected by the audio community. I respect people who follow his advice and views. But we must always remember that our (most WBF audiophiles) fun is fundamentally different from his fun.
    Last edited by microstrip; 11-23-2017 at 06:53 PM.
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  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by microstrip View Post
    Marty,

    I consider the F. Toole book an excellent reference text in sound reproduction, particularly Part One - Understanding the Principles, have read it carefully, some parts more than once, and learned a lot from it. However I (and many others) disagree with the limited view of stereo capabilities endorsed by F. Toole, and specially the self-justifying sentence " it really is all about the music" or the use the degradation of our hearing to excuse system compromises. For example, as you know, David Wilson has told how we compensate for this loss in frequency response from timing, and unless we are strongly affected by hearing losses, sometimes older people are critical listeners and enjoy better high quality reproduction.

    Although this hobby (being an audiophile) is about the music, IMHO it is not exclusively all about the music, and here most audiophiles and audio designers part with F. Toole. We must see that his stereo approach is different from ours - what he considers non relevant is the essence of our fun : the ultimate capabilities of stereo reproduction.

    F. Toole has always openly exposed his very negative opinions about the high-end and our preferences, even about particular subjects such as expensive electronics, cables and tweaks. He is surely a great scientist, respected by the audio community. I respect people who follow his advice and views. But we must always remember that our (most WBF audiophiles) fun is fundamentally different from his fun.
    You seem to be saying that you are more interested in your stereo gear than the music it produces. If that's not what you are trying to say then I think you need to have another go at articulating where you part company with Toole.

  5. #45
    [Industry Expert] Addicted to Best! DaveC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iansr View Post
    You seem to be saying that you are more interested in your stereo gear than the music it produces. If that's not what you are trying to say then I think you need to have another go at articulating where you part company with Toole.
    I agree w/micro.

    IMO, preservation of harmonic content and fine detail by both the system and the room is the most important factor for enjoyable listening. Has nothing to do with gear vs music.

    I do believe that Toole is right about a great many things though, and it's all important, I just place different priorities on certain aspects of a system's performance which leads me to choose different compromises. For example my (horn) speaker design has a mid and tweeter that only require a single cap before the driver and are intended to be driven using a SET amp. This kind of minimalism preserves harmonic content better than the kind of DSP required for a M2. In my own speaker preference testing nobody mentions the FR deviations I know are there, while everybody notices the 3-D immersive soundstage created by preserving detail. It is clear to me that this is what really drives preference but it depends on things like a simple signal path, high quality components that Harman would consider "boutique" and unnecessary, same with interconnect cables. OTOH, I know these are the main factors that makes my system do what it does. Harman will never test this because Toole will never setup a system like this. I think poor/questionable system setup has driven a lot of his data and confounded a lot of his testing as well.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Folsom View Post
    Speakers like these two are the least forgiving on electronics.
    Yes and this can produce highly variable results in terms of SQ depending on the electronics used (and not just tube vs. SS).
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