Transparent Cable - is the wire the same?

audiohippo

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Jan 12, 2016
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I was speaking to a dealer today who suggested that the actual wire within each of the lines are the same. The example provided was within the Ref and Ref XL are actually the same wire, but the network boxes are different, with the XL having a more precise tune.

Is this true?

It was also commented that when the Ref cable is sent in for an upgrade to XL, the cable is not changed, only the network box and calibration.


Reference Speaker Cable

Reference Speaker Cable transfers bass energy down through the bottom octave with amazing accuracy and creates a quiet interface between some of the most challenging speaker and amplifier combinations.

Reference speaker cable is upgradeable to XL speaker cable or above.

XL Speaker Cable

More precisely calibrated to the characteristics of your amplifier than Reference Speaker Cable, Transparent XL Speaker Cable will free your system to provide unexpected levels of musical involvement when you turn the lights down low and listen.

 

jfrech

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I was speaking to a dealer today who suggested that the actual wire within each of the lines are the same. The example provided was within the Ref and Ref XL are actually the same wire, but the network boxes are different, with the XL having a more precise tune.

Is this true?

It was also commented that when the Ref cable is sent in for an upgrade to XL, the cable is not changed, only the network box and calibration.


Reference Speaker Cable

Reference Speaker Cable transfers bass energy down through the bottom octave with amazing accuracy and creates a quiet interface between some of the most challenging speaker and amplifier combinations.

Reference speaker cable is upgradeable to XL speaker cable or above.

XL Speaker Cable

More precisely calibrated to the characteristics of your amplifier than Reference Speaker Cable, Transparent XL Speaker Cable will free your system to provide unexpected levels of musical involvement when you turn the lights down low and listen.


For these two models of Transparent, the answer is likely yes. The networks make a major difference however...My opinion your dealer is right.

I used to own Transparent Opus MM2 Speaker cable. When I upgraded to Opus Gen5, they only changed the network. It was a massive improvement. The brand new Opus Gen5 has new wire also, but my dealer and transparent said 90% of the sound diff was the better network...
 

Folsom

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I have no doubt that they would be. But it's a bit comical that they don't just use the same network for all of them.
 

AMP

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Feb 27, 2011
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I was speaking to a dealer today who suggested that the actual wire within each of the lines are the same.

Was this a Transparent dealer? If so you should let Transparent know as these guys really need to go to training!

The example provided was within the Ref and Ref XL are actually the same wire, but the network boxes are different, with the XL having a more precise tune.

Is this true?

No. Pickup a Gen5 Reference cable and compare it to XL. There's a significant difference in cable diameter and flexibility (with the XL being significantly larger in cross-section and much stiffer). This is true of the speaker cables and interconnects.

It was also commented that when the Ref cable is sent in for an upgrade to XL, the cable is not changed, only the network box and calibration.

Absolutely 100% false. When you upgrade to XL you are sent a NEW pair of XL cables and the Reference cables are returned, reconditioned by Transparent, and ultimately resold as certified pre-owned.

Each level of Transparent cable uses different wire and different network components. The overall idea is the same as you move up the line, but the execution is different (and more extreme) as you move up.
 

jfrech

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I have no doubt that they would be. But it's a bit comical that they don't just use the same network for all of them.

This makes no sense ?? The network is a key reason why these cables are special. Each step up the network gets better and more precise.
 

microstrip

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I have no doubt that they would be. But it's a bit comical that they don't just use the same network for all of them.

:confused::confused::confused:
 

Folsom

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This makes no sense ?? The network is a key reason why these cables are special. Each step up the network gets better and more precise.

In a business sense I guess it makes sense... but only because they have no other products. The difference in costs for networks is nein. You're just paying for IP, which is fair. One must wonder however would they sell a lot more cables if you could get their best IP for a median cost. That or specific cables for specific types of amp/speaker combos. That would probably be the most useful since the IP isn't that interesting, and they could tailor to suit since there are different needs (no such entirely universal network is possible unless it has a computer that records data over time and turns parts of the network on and off for best results).
 

microstrip

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This makes no sense ?? The network is a key reason why these cables are special. Each step up the network gets better and more precise.

IMHO the cable must be considered as an whole - wire and network. In advanced series this whole is tuned to the output and input impedance of the equipment being connected.

Owners and people who listened in fair conditions know how valuable these cables are if they meet their preferences and systems. IMHO speculation based in price of copper or fiber glass , dealer margins and/or the usual cheap cable talk is a meaningless waste of time.

It is a pity that Transparent Audio lower price cables do not get more attention in forums - they represent excellent value.
 

LL21

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In a business sense I guess it makes sense... but only because they have no other products. The difference in costs for networks is nein. You're just paying for IP, which is fair. One must wonder however would they sell a lot more cables if you could get their best IP for a median cost. That or specific cables for specific types of amp/speaker combos. That would probably be the most useful since the IP isn't that interesting, and they could tailor to suit since there are different needs (no such entirely universal network is possible unless it has a computer that records data over time and turns parts of the network on and off for best results).

I have zero knowledge of how these work, but I was under the impression that because equipment has different impedance (among other electrical type specs)...TA spent their time focusing on finetuning the network box that sits in between the 2 pieces of equipment in order to create a better signal transfer. While i suppose that (because the impedance differences are probably shifting depending on where on the sound spectrum music is occurring) a real-time change to the network box might be ideal...i would have thought that finetuning the box to adjust for these mis-matches between the equipment is already pretty darned good?

Sure sounds good to me. Absolutely a fan of the most recent TA Opus 5 and Opus MM2 cables we are now listening to over the last few months which have now taken over the entire system end to end.

Certainly open to learning more about this.
 

Folsom

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Real time would be undesirable, and impossible in the current network form. It could be possible to make profiles of speakers and pre-tune the networks for them but that's still a huge gamble because it requires some other-worldly R&D to predict profile vs subjective response for specific speakers. What I meant was just that you might be able to have a cable with a computer take a best average on a parameter that's been tested to be mostly successful, but also representing basically an insane cost.

I would recommend the idea of having something like,

Tube amp w/transformer output, ported speakers
Tube amp w/transformer output, sealed speakers
tube amp w/transformer output, horn speakers
tube amp w/transformer output, open baffle speakers

SS amp h/dampening, ported speakers
SS amp h/dampening, sealed speakers
SS amp h/dampening, horn speakers
SS amp h/dampening, open baffle speakers
SS amp l/dampening, ported speakers
SS amp l/dampening, sealed speakers
SS amp l/dampening, horn speakers
SS amp l/dampening, open baffle speakers


There may be easier ways to do it, that's a baby idea. But the point being you might be able to offer better performance by knowing the type of amp and speaker because they'll have general attributes that will respond to some tuning. It's perfectly possible to make any network have no benefit, but you need to have an amp and speaker that match well (maybe intentionally or at leasted noted of how/why they would). Also I know of few if any speakers that really are tuned in such a way that there isn't room for a potential network benefit. I can say however that in-crossover work is even better. At that point though Transparent would literally just become a couple of road vehicles that drove to your place and tuned speakers/cables to each system... you think they're expensive now? :p

Here's a question, what about plug'n'play networks? That way people could buy new ones to try, that say, have different profiles. Transparent would probably make more money since they'd be doing less labor, and still selling their IP that's certainly not going to be free. You pay for cables once, but pay for IP several times over in order to play around and choose.
 

LL21

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...There may be easier ways to do it, that's a baby idea. But the point being you might be able to offer better performance by knowing the type of amp and speaker because they'll have general attributes that will respond to some tuning...

thanks for that...appreciated. I think that for Ref, Ref XL and certainly for Opus, Magnum Opus, TA actually requires to know what exact equipment will be used at either end of the cable, and then they calibrate the network box...and will also recalibrate the network box if you change equipment...so i supposed this somewhat addresses your idea?

I know in our case we had to say Zanden 5000S DAC to CJ GAT, and CJ GAT to Gryphon Colosseum Stereo amp, and then the certificate which comes with the cables specifies this equipment. Plus, again, if we change equipment, we can send it back to be recalibrated at no extra cost, save shipping.
 

microstrip

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I have zero knowledge of how these work, but I was under the impression that because equipment has different impedance (among other electrical type specs)...TA spent their time focusing on finetuning the network box that sits in between the 2 pieces of equipment in order to create a better signal transfer. While i suppose that (because the impedance differences are probably shifting depending on where on the sound spectrum music is occurring) a real-time change to the network box might be ideal...i would have thought that finetuning the box to adjust for these mis-matches between the equipment is already pretty darned good?

Sure sounds good to me. Absolutely a fan of the most recent TA Opus 5 and Opus MM2 cables we are now listening to over the last few months which have now taken over the entire system end to end.

Certainly open to learning more about this.

And IMHO we will go on having close to zero knowledge of how these work ... People will tell nice factual things about impedance, that will not be able to explain anything related to the sound quality of the cables.

No one has been able to explain scientifically why a simple high quality XLR or RCA cable sounds like, why can we expect success with more complex networked cables? And forget about patents - they do not explain the why's, they just protect the IP of some particular features of the cable.

I would be the first one to know why cables sound like they sound, I know it is a very complex electromechanical process that manipulates the signal, involving dielectrics, metallurgy and chemistry but have little hope that anyone will want to explain it all. And yes, what manufacturers write in their white papers is just meaningless marketing to attract our attention.

But yes, the Opus MM2 sound great and needs matching!
 

Folsom

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thanks for that...appreciated. I think that for Ref, Ref XL and certainly for Opus, Magnum Opus, TA actually requires to know what exact equipment will be used at either end of the cable, and then they calibrate the network box...and will also recalibrate the network box if you change equipment...so i supposed this somewhat addresses your idea?

I know in our case we had to say Zanden 5000S DAC to CJ GAT, and CJ GAT to Gryphon Colosseum Stereo amp, and then the certificate which comes with the cables specifies this equipment. Plus, again, if we change equipment, we can send it back to be recalibrated at no extra cost, save shipping.

Perhaps it does, I may be mistaken in my understanding of their cables.
 

treitz3

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Not perhaps.....definitely.

Tom
 

GuillaumeB

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thanks for that...appreciated. I think that for Ref, Ref XL and certainly for Opus, Magnum Opus, TA actually requires to know what exact equipment will be used at either end of the cable, and then they calibrate the network box...and will also recalibrate the network box if you change equipment...so i supposed this somewhat addresses your idea?

I know in our case we had to say Zanden 5000S DAC to CJ GAT, and CJ GAT to Gryphon Colosseum Stereo amp, and then the certificate which comes with the cables specifies this equipment. Plus, again, if we change equipment, we can send it back to be recalibrated at no extra cost, save shipping.

For what it's worth when I got my Absolare Integrated I contacted Transparent about having my Gen 5 XL speaker cables recalibrated. I was surprised to hear that they didn't need recalibrating, since the calibration was still correct. The Absolare Integrated and Devialet Original d'Atelier are surely very different beasts? The Devialet has an output impedance of 0.9 milliohm (so 0.0009 ohms) which is maintained even over 1kW. The output impedance of the Absolare is less than 0.01 ohms.

So just how finely tuned is this network? XL is one level below Opus...

Guillaume
 

christoph

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For what it's worth when I got my Absolare Integrated I contacted Transparent about having my Gen 5 XL speaker cables recalibrated. I was surprised to hear that they didn't need recalibrating, since the calibration was still correct. The Absolare Integrated and Devialet Original d'Atelier are surely very different beasts? The Devialet has an output impedance of 0.9 milliohm (so 0.0009 ohms) which is maintained even over 1kW. The output impedance of the Absolare is less than 0.01 ohms.

So just how finely tuned is this network? XL is one level below Opus...

Guillaume

Certainly their calibration is still valid.
They already have your money... :rolleyes:
 

microstrip

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For what it's worth when I got my Absolare Integrated I contacted Transparent about having my Gen 5 XL speaker cables recalibrated. I was surprised to hear that they didn't need recalibrating, since the calibration was still correct. The Absolare Integrated and Devialet Original d'Atelier are surely very different beasts? The Devialet has an output impedance of 0.9 milliohm (so 0.0009 ohms) which is maintained even over 1kW. The output impedance of the Absolare is less than 0.01 ohms.

So just how finely tuned is this network? XL is one level below Opus...

Guillaume

The calibration fork of the XL is wider than that of Opus - and you must realize that the absolute difference between both amplifiers impedance is very small, as you are referring to exceptionally low output impedance values.

The precise tuning is made relative to the cable and network elements - the measured output impedance of amplifiers varies much more over the specified value or from unit to unit than the cable components precision.
 

Sharp 1080

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I have Reference Gen5 speaker cables in my system that was originally calibrated for a Mark Levinson ML335. I switched to the Theta Prometheus monoblocks and spoke with Transparent about sending them back for recalibration. I was assured the cables were okay and not in need of changing anything inside the network. It's the hi Z and low Z choices which are the most critical. To me that seems to makes sense when comparing solid state amps against tube amps.
 

AMP

Member
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For what it's worth when I got my Absolare Integrated I contacted Transparent about having my Gen 5 XL speaker cables recalibrated. I was surprised to hear that they didn't need recalibrating, since the calibration was still correct. The Absolare Integrated and Devialet Original d'Atelier are surely very different beasts? The Devialet has an output impedance of 0.9 milliohm (so 0.0009 ohms) which is maintained even over 1kW. The output impedance of the Absolare is less than 0.01 ohms.

So just how finely tuned is this network? XL is one level below Opus...

Guillaume

The calibration ranges are set based on a number of factors, but output impedance is the critical one to consider. Extremely low impedances are easier to deal with as the component is less likely to get into a fight with the loudspeaker. As the impedance goes up then the amp / speaker interaction becomes more critical and more work needs to be done within the cable to address that interaction. I've found that there are more fine-grained calibration ranges as the output impedance goes up. It's not a tube vs. solid state thing as there are a number of solid state amps with surprisingly high output impedances (and vice versa with tubes).
 

still-one

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In a business sense I guess it makes sense... but only because they have no other products. The difference in costs for networks is nein. You're just paying for IP, which is fair. One must wonder however would they sell a lot more cables if you could get their best IP for a median cost. That or specific cables for specific types of amp/speaker combos. That would probably be the most useful since the IP isn't that interesting, and they could tailor to suit since there are different needs (no such entirely universal network is possible unless it has a computer that records data over time and turns parts of the network on and off for best results).

The network boxes when MM2 was the top of the line were all manufactured using different materials so cost difference was not zero and you indicate. I haven't paid much attention to the differences in the Gen 5 boxes to see what the differences are between the different levels of Transparent's product lines.
 

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