Live unamplified music v home audio, another thread/perspective

caesar · Jul 22, 2017

Al M. said:
Flaws of omission are always less problematic than flaws of commission. Classic case in point: it is much easier to overlook some lacking extension in the bass than to listen through even just slightly boomy bass.

Al, hate to disagree with you, but this depends on one's perception. One man's flaw's of omission are another man's flaws of commission. Just look at the polarized reaction to Magico Q5/ q7. One guy thinks it's the most pure thing in the world because it sounds just like unamplified instruments in their imagination, while another guy listening to the same record would rather hang himself from the chandelier if he had to listen to it for more than 3 minutes...

Subjective perceptions are formed through our lifetimes, through years of conditioning, not unlike other tastes... you don't have to teach kids to like sugar and candies... then they progress to things like hot dogs with (sweetening) ketchup, then when kids are 7 or 8, foodies have a real bar mitzvah-type celebration when a kid "graduates" to having a hot dog with other stuff like relish, pickle, mustard, hot pepper, etc.... and that old hot dog with ketchup is just plain boring... ditto for bitter-tasting alcohol...

As a recent unfortunate example, remember a recent fight between a couple of drunken guys, "Great" Peter Breuninger and "Sterile" Jon Valin over whether their favorite turntable sounds more real to them in their imagination.... Thank GOD those guys didn't have knives or other weapons on them... yet, speaking cynically, this type of incident would have brought a lot of publicity and "fresh blood" to our hobby

spiritofmusic · Jul 22, 2017

Just returned from my third gig at the Kings Lynn Festival, EUCO playing Vivaldi Summer from Four Seasons and Concertino for Sopranino Recorder, Telemann Recorder Concerto, Handel and Bach, featuring the amazing Piers Adams on recorder
And then Robin Bigwood playing harpsichord Bach Goldberg Variations
This was in the big Minster, a very reverberant but at same time quite intimate in its way, maybe not warm, but certainly vibrant
Interestingly, this was the first gig where the volume levels were not excessive, indeed not massively beyond domestic playback levels
As a result it was a lot easier to make the mental comparison to home presentation
Firstly, Piers is a real star
I can't say I've ever paid much attention to the recorder after being force fed it as a kid, but in Piers' hands it was an amazingly agile, unusually potent weapon of pure melody and harmony, and Piers put so much heart and soul into his performance, the pieces just came to life fizzing w energy
Robin on harpsichord was kind of the opposite to Piers, more contemplative and intimate, a fantastically fluid 50 mins of continuous emotional performance
What I found fascinating today was that I'm starting to get the imaging in live music, and also properly pick up on the total acoustic environment and maybe get where Kal is coming from in his arguments for MCH being the more authentic way to reproduce such performances at home
This doesn't mean I'm convinced yet on MCH, but it's the first proper realisation I've had that this aspect of acoustic immersion probably isn't best served by 2ch
Most importantly, a truly soul enriching and educational experience, and live classical is something I'm going to keep sticking with
Next week, half a dozen more live outings

bonzo75 · Jul 23, 2017

Try not to listen to your own system this time so as not to reset perceptions. After a few days come back and listen with a clean slate

spiritofmusic · Jul 23, 2017

Ked, I have a bunch of power cords changing, so I won't be listening for about a week
In that time, another 8 live gigs culminating in Beethoven Eroica next Sat

spiritofmusic · Jul 23, 2017

Also Ked, my biggest data points are going to be this comparison of a glut of live classical versus my digital at home versus soon to be reinstalled tt.
So, in the last 18 months I will have gone from: no music while room being constructed, to music in a radically impvd acoustic, a constant diet of digital for 3-6 months to newly optimised analog, and a steady diet of live unamplified to reference home audio against.
I'm confident I'll reset my perspective after this all comes out in the wash.
MCH is something that's starting to make more sense than any musical chairs of component swaps, move to horns, Apogees etc.
Whether this means adding a couple of Hafler delayed rear channels for 4ch ambience stereo, or something more specialist, who knows

bonzo75 · Jul 23, 2017

You need another Zu with Nat mono for center. Two small surround speakers. Switch between MUCH and your already favored 2 CH. for MCH you will need to plug in through a processor instead of the utopia

spiritofmusic · Jul 23, 2017

Ked, these two weeks are proving to be an interesting reality check
What I'm realising is that despite the superficial similarity of live unamplified to Hi Rez digital, indeed analog remains the reference re density, flow, energy, continuosness, texture.
Secondly, live classical is weighted twds the lower midband, there is absolutely no spotlighting of treble
Thirdly, the creaminess and texture of SETs really seems to be more the representation of live than SS
Just my feelings so far

bonzo75 · Jul 23, 2017

Speaker is still the most important, with the room. Your same system in the previous room you will agree was nothing like live, so it cannot be SET.

SET+good horns give a flow and timbre and micro that reminds me of Sheldonian type halls, especially for piano and individual instruments. Well driven SS + Apogee reminds me of Barbican orchestra. Stats+valves are fine but limited for chamber and vocals. To your analog vs digital point for me that debate is pointless. It is a choice of convenience, not a debate on realism though some like to do so. I don't know what you mean by spotlighting of treble, from your writing it seems to be the negative edge of digital.

spiritofmusic · Jul 23, 2017

I'm intrigued why you didn't go all in w MCH, Ked
You already had yr main pr of spkrs for 2ch
Adding another Verity, plus a pr of smaller Veritys and a couple of subs plus Dirac or Illusonic, and you'd be good to go
But you've decided to stay 2ch, and specialist 2ch to boot ie Leipzig horns of Scintillas
This suggests to me it remains tone and timbre that is more critical than the ambience envelope of MCH, and hence you have to go for the best purveyors of the meat of the music ie the best 2ch spkrs, or knowing you're destined to do yr fave, or only critical listening on vinyl, MCH just will blunt that advantage needing ad-da on what comes out of the cart

RogerD · Jul 23, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
Also Ked, my biggest data points are going to be this comparison of a glut of live classical versus my digital at home versus soon to be reinstalled tt.
So, in the last 18 months I will have gone from: no music while room being constructed, to music in a radically impvd acoustic, a constant diet of digital for 3-6 months to newly optimised analog, and a steady diet of live unamplified to reference home audio against.
I'm confident I'll reset my perspective after this all comes out in the wash.
MCH is something that's starting to make more sense than any musical chairs of component swaps, move to horns, Apogees etc.
Whether this means adding a couple of Hafler delayed rear channels for 4ch ambience stereo, or something more specialist, who knows

Marc,

I have a modified improved Hafler circuit in my system. The circuit runs two pairs of speakers,one is outboard of my L&R mains and the other pair is placed in the center position. The speakers deliver a preset group of frequencies,they are not full range. So what improvement the circuit accomplishes,is that you get a totally coherent and fluid wall of sound from side to side and top to bottom. Much like live music,but the original recording is still conveyed...nothing really added or taken away. On classical orchestral music the room disappears....my brother calls it the "transporter". Some may not like it,but I love it because I don't have any signal except what's in front or overhead of me.

spiritofmusic · Jul 23, 2017

Just returned from maybe the most interesting gig yet from a live versus home audio comparison standpoint.
Gildas string quartet (plus guest clarinetist) playing Haydn and Mendelssohn, at a manageable volume, in a sympathetically damped small purpose built venue, maybe 3x size of my space, w us sitting 3rd row in effect the same distance from performers as I do from my Zus.
You could hear and feel the musicians breathing.
Again, some big similarities w the listening experience at home.
Again, many differences.
What's fascinating is to feel the air in effect liquidise w energy as the density and energy pick up.
At home as levels pick up, or you turn up the volume, a kind of pixelated quality results where the music just gets terser and less elastic.
Live, and the very air itself becomes part of the performance, and indeed whether soft or loud, the communication remains consistent, so different from volume changes in an amp.
What I'm taking away from all of this is that analog, SETs, high sensitivity/zero crossover spkrs is providing me a big slice of the live aesthetic re replicating tone and timbre.
And this more valuable than a louder, flat frequency response spkr/SS amp type presentation.
Also, that dynamics and atmospheric energisation are impossible to approximate at home realistically.
And that the bubble of ambience is maybe the one area that I at least need to look at re MCH.
Certainly it's the one area I remember most as lacking at home when I arrive home.

spiritofmusic · Jul 23, 2017

Roger, Google "Naim AV1 processor".
It's a long forgotten relic from the mid 90s.
Even Naim disown it LOL, by not listing it in their family tree of components.
As I say, it has zero effect on front 2ch, just runs out of of spare AMP OUT sockets of preamp to an additional power amp and thence to a pair of rear spkrs.
The AV1 applies fixed delay of 10-15ms, Hafler processing and switches R and L around.
It's aim was to create an "ambience channel" based on the front channel, and be just as valid for music as well as home cinema.
A triple whammy of home cinema Pro Logic taking off, skepticism of musicophiles for anything other than 2ch and Naimophiles luke warm reception of it meant it died a death and was completely forgotten.
Not by me when I bought one recently for 10% of its original rrp.
And now I'm considering a smaller pair of Zu full range spkrs to use for 4ch.

bonzo75 · Jul 23, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
I'm intrigued why you didn't go all in w MCH, Ked
You already had yr main pr of spkrs for 2ch
Adding another Verity, plus a pr of smaller Veritys and a couple of subs plus Dirac or Illusonic, and you'd be good to go
But you've decided to stay 2ch, and specialist 2ch to boot ie Leipzig horns of Scintillas
This suggests to me it remains tone and timbre that is more critical than the ambience envelope of MCH, and hence you have to go for the best purveyors of the meat of the music ie the best 2ch spkrs, or knowing you're destined to do yr fave, or only critical listening on vinyl, MCH just will blunt that advantage needing ad-da on what comes out of the cart

It's not so black and white. I find realism from my top 2-ch systems (and I am talking under 10 here) greater than MCH. But average MCH much easier to get right than the average 2-ch. Yes I ccould have completed the Verity, or any standamount MCH and enjoyed music. I have never deluded myself like many on this forum that I am not in this for a gear hobby. If I wanted music, a bose, KEF LS50, or a decent MCH, plus live concerts suffice. Have you ever had a conversation with the regulars at a concert hall? Ask them what system they have at home.

I am here for the gear and for the chase to find gear that compete with the best at better prices, that are better than that average MCH, and that relate to my live experiences. Remember before Amazon, you had the choice to walk into Waterstones and buy a new book, or scrummage through second hand books to get a good deal and collect. I am the latter. Plus, my favorite 2-ch do much more than just tone and timbre compared to an MCH. I suggested a center channel for you because you are already set up with a 2-ch system that you like, which in configuration is exactly similar to Verity (same size speakers and similar amps), so adding MCH to the 2-ch is easy. With apogees or horns it is not.

RogerD · Jul 23, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
Roger, Google "Naim AV1 processor".
It's a long forgotten relic from the mid 90s.
Even Naim disown it LOL, by not listing it in their family tree of components.
As I say, it has zero effect on front 2ch, just runs out of of spare AMP OUT sockets of preamp to an additional power amp and thence to a pair of rear spkrs.
The AV1 applies fixed delay of 10-15ms, Hafler processing and switches R and L around.
It's aim was to create an "ambience channel" based on the front channel, and be just as valid for music as well as home cinema.
A triple whammy of home cinema Pro Logic taking off, skepticism of musicophiles for anything other than 2ch and Naimophiles luke warm reception of it meant it died a death and was completely forgotten.
Not by me when I bought one recently for 10% of its original rrp.
And now I'm considering a smaller pair of Zu full range spkrs to use for 4ch.

Marc, give it a shot,I love mine. I use a separate amp with output controls and a volume switch box so I can individually set each pair in the system...works great. I will check out the naim. Bottom line is the Hafler like signal blends in so no phase problems and the wall of sound with a highly resolute system just produces a beautiful bloom effect...if it is in the recording....live are my favorites.

Al M. · Jul 23, 2017

bonzo75 said:
It's not so black and white. I find realism from my top 2-ch systems (and I am talking under 10 here) greater than MCH. But average MCH much easier to get right than the average 2-ch. Yes I ccould have completed the Verity, or any standamount MCH and enjoyed music. I have never deluded myself like many on this forum that this is a gear hobby. If I wanted music, a bose, KEF LS50, or a decent MCH, plus live concerts suffice. Have you ever had a conversation with the regulars at a concert hall? Ask them what system they have at home.

The truth lies probably in the middle. The hobby is both about the music and the gear. Now that I have settled in with my new gear I am starting to get into the music itself again. And I get a presentation that gets me closer to the music than before, and certainly closer than a Bose radio. Are concerts always the answer? No. I am currently (again) exploring Stockhausen's marvelous "In the Sky I am Walking" for two solo singers. When will I ever hear that in concert? (There are concerts with that music next year, but I'd have to hop over the big pond.) Yet now my system reveals more about the musical intent of the composition and of the two performances I have on CD. That certainly is about the music.

bonzo75 · Jul 23, 2017

Al M. said:
The truth lies probably in the middle. The hobby is both about the music and the gear. Now that I have settled in with my new gear I am starting to get into the music itself again. And I get a presentation that gets me closer to the music than before, and certainly closer than a Bose radio. Are concerts always the answer? No. I am currently (again) exploring Stockhausen's marvelous "In the Sky I am Walking" for two solo singers. When will I ever hear that in concert? (There are concerts with that music next year, but I'd have to hop over the big pond.) Yet now my system reveals more about the musical intent of the two performances I have and of the composition. That certainly is about the music.

Sure, there is an overlap. One feeds the other. But Peter does not need a colibri, Airtight Supreme, and a MSL to bridge that overlap. Nor a KL Audio cleaner.

Frankly, I don't get many hours to listen at home either. As Bill asked me, you did all this search to listen to music 2 - 4 hours a week at home? Maybe as I stop travelling on my hifi days, I will gain a day a fortnight more. As opposed to stopping on the way home from work, catching a concert 7.30 - 9.30. Dinner can be had either side of the concert.

spiritofmusic · Jul 23, 2017

For me, I've found the components and blend I liked some 3 years ago, now the room acoustics and power to make it all gel in the last 6 months, and going semi retired means I get the time to go to live concerts a lot more from now on
Other than one last pricey series of system ancillaries, Stacore isolation, and a moderately priced but performing streaming option, I'm kinda done on big spending
The Naim/Hafler 4ch ambience solution could be an interesting extension to my system for minimal outlay to get some of the "velvet bubble" I've been hearing at gigs in the last week
And for me, my semi dormant love of classical has been refired, meaning I'll be emptying the s/h record shops of East Anglia of their vinyl

Fitzcaraldo215 · Jul 23, 2017

Re-creation from stereo sources of some truly realistic sense of live performance is a dream unfulfilled. It is often tantalizingly close, but still doomed to failure. And, it will always be unfulfilled, because it simply lacks sufficient information captured live and reproduced for the listener. It should not take a genius to understand that 5 discrete channels of information are greater than 2.

the sound of Tao · Jul 24, 2017

Al M. said:
Many 2-channel systems do not properly energize the room. As a result, the soundstage is experienced as an image that you "look at", something that is not immersive but rather, somewhat detached in front of you -- something "happening over there", rather than something that fully reaches and involves you. I suspect that primarily in those cases multi-channel will be experienced as a large step forward. Yet once your 2-channel system, aided by proper component selection, speaker/listening position set-up, and possibly room treatment, provides a fully immersive experience where the instruments are still located with their proper size within a spatially deep soundstage, yet their sound robustly propagates forward towards you and energizes the entire room -- as live sound often energizes the venue -- , then I assume multi-channel will less likely be seen as providing a substantial additive advantage.

And in terms of tone and timbral resolution, fully optimized 2-channel reproduction will not be easy to beat by multi-channel.

I missed this earlier Al, great observation and I really get what you are saying about the difference in experience and that detachment that comes when a system just isn't quite engaging and energising the room.

Well set up bigger ribbons make the experience kind of irresistible for me. They create an undeniable linkage between what is heard and what is felt. Once you forget about where you are because the music abducts you mind, body, spirit and soul the issues of perceived separation between live and replayed music become just so much less important. Once you are in music's grip it is all there is really.

I've been using Harbeth 30.1s downstairs in the main living space since November and I love them for a range of reasons too numerous and just OT for here however I've also had the Harbeth 40.2s in the same space and the difference where the room is energised by the bigger speaker is enough to make me want to step up (so much for the lunacy of setting limits on a second setup... farout, hopeless). But after living with the Harbeth 30.1s I feel I can commit to the bigger Harbys as a second destination. 40.2s just edge closer to doing it in a way that makes you forget the process as all of the body is resonating with the room and the sound. There is no separation.

Actually it reminds me a lot of the difference between the way more mid sized ribbon panels (as marvellous as they can be) almost have me but then the move to the larger ones just stepped through the frontier of doubt and into the suspension of disbelief. Same with the larger horns as well.

Getting lost in the music is something of a destination for all I would have thought and maybe creating connection is not so much about what we are conscious of but just what is felt.

853guy · Jul 24, 2017

Fitzcaraldo215 said:
Re-creation from stereo sources of some truly realistic sense of live performance is a dream unfulfilled. It is often tantalizingly close, but still doomed to failure. And, it will always be unfulfilled, because it simply lacks sufficient information captured live and reproduced for the listener. It should not take a genius to understand that 5 discrete channels of information are greater than 2.

Hello Fitz,

That the ear/brain mechanism is not stereo, does not confer a discrete multi-channel (or binaural) system a definitive advantage per se, due to the fact that a microphone is still only ever capturing information related to a given polar pattern, software for all its advances still can’t come close to the processing sophistication of human hearing and is of course, reliant on content recorded specifically for that format. In other words, that discrete multi-channel can in some instances confer an advantage over conventional stereo is true only in as much as the full chain from mic through to mixing to software to speaker placement and room is optimised, which as always results in a system chained to a format (check out the number of recordings available in Auro 3D and the process needed to record/mix it).

Indeed, one of the most impressive demos relative to conventional stereo music recordings according to some is Professor Edgar Choueiri’s BACCH 3D system, which relies on small microphones implanted into the ear canal for initial subject calibration, an infrared sensor to track head movement of the subject in real time, the BACCH-SP processor and two conventional stereo speakers and a sub. That only one listener can only ever benefit from that experience at one time and is non-compatible with other systems will make it a non-starter for many, even should one be able to pony up the $54K.

So far, it seems to be that a consumer who wishes to maximise the potential of all formats is still going to need to assemble independent systems optimised for the format. That multi-channel systems are best realised when playing back multi-channel recordings confers no advantage to those of us whose library primarily consists of mono or conventional stereo recordings - the latter of which by far proportionately outnumber all other music releases - and as such, continue to hold only limited appeal to those who buy music because of its artistic content, rather than its format.

Best,

853guy

Live unamplified music v home audio, another thread/perspective

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