Jeff's Getting a New Stereo System

spiritofmusic · Jul 3, 2017

Maybe this topic can generate a new thread on how our choices (expensive and not so expensive) have been made, and how they might have changed over time
For my part, I'm equal part cudmudgeon, equal part enthusiast, equal part cynic, equal part snob
I run my own business, a small therapy concern amongst a couple of very big players locally
And all this has influenced my audio buying and preferences
For my part, I'm almost irreversibly drawn to boutique brands
I want to feel the designer's ethos in the gear, even if this means not paying for uber neutrality
I actually have more pride of ownership in finding those left field brands and paying full price or the occasional bargain ex demo, than continually trawling the classifieds for hand-me-downs from the upper echelons
So for me, I get a warm glow having bought into Sean Casey's vision at Zu, Dejan Nikic's at NAT, Mark Coles at Sablon, Vic re the Trans Fi Terminator, Peter at Soundsmith, etc etc
In fact if these guys lost their minds and suddenly released a cost no object luxury model not backed up by their original humble engineering ethos, I would seriously go off the company
Now of course, this is somewhat a truism, because I can't afford a top Kharma spkr, or the D'Agostino amp, etc etc
But my choices really are informed by looking for brands with the winning mix of unmistakeable designer ethos, and lack of geometric trajectory pricing
There is a perfectly reasonable and solid engineer who created the tt that broke the hegemony of the Linn Sondek LP12 in the UK who made a totally good product, reasonably priced
He then disappeared to re emerge some years later w gear at the absolute top end pricing and camped in the Far East, and lost all my respect (and yes, I have heard his gear, and it's not significantly better than what I owned at 10x the price)

853guy · Jul 3, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
I think it's so tempting to try and generalize about how high end decisions get made, when it's anything but something you can generalize about.....unless you are a mind reader. even the decision maker many times can't articulate the why or even be honest enough with themselves to really understand it.

True story:

When I bought my first all-Naim system, the dealer began inviting me to events at the store and eventually, his house. We’d have wine, and cheese, get to rub shoulders with Naim’s then owners and congratulate one another on how our superior intellect and distinguished palettes had bestowed upon us the honour of being so… chosen. As much as I chuckle about it now, the reality remains that those wine and cheese evenings had a much greater influence on me climbing the Naim ladder than I could ever possibly admit at the time, and despite the fact every upgrade conferred an uptick in sound quality and subjective musical enjoyment, I’d be fooling myself to think it was sound quality alone that kept me buying black boxes with sharp edges.

Best,

853guy

microstrip · Jul 3, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
I think it's so tempting to try and generalize about how high end decisions get made, when it's anything but something you can generalize about.....unless you are a mind reader. even the decision maker many times can't articulate the why or even be honest enough with themselves to really understand it.

I do think there are large scale markets that do have measurable trends.....and reasonably known indicators. but high end audio is not broad enough, and too multi-faceted, for that.

the best you can do is observe those you know, but even then you only have part of the story.

this is just my 2 cents after 23 years seriously in the high end, working in real world retail for 45 years.

Well said Mike, only a very small part of the story. It is why I often ask about the statistical value and data concerning the generalizations often referred concerning the high-end prices or choices. I take great care when all we see are confidential unclear word of mouth statements or just recycling the same information that we all read from audio blogs, but no factual data or new concrete references.

IMHO the real data in this hobby are people systems and their satisfaction/dissatisfaction with them, as well as documented evolution of their systems.

bonzo75 · Jul 3, 2017

microstrip said:
Well said Mike, only a very small part of the story. It is why I often ask about the statistical value and data concerning the generalizations often referred concerning the high-end prices or choices. I take great care when all we see are confidential unclear word of mouth statements or just recycling the same information that we all read from audio blogs, but no factual data or new concrete references.

IMHO the real data in this hobby are people systems and their satisfaction/dissatisfaction with them, as well as documented evolution of their systems.

Actually, all that shows is if a person gets satisfied easily or not. Marc has been long satisfied with Zus, so it should be a final speaker.

What you have never pointed out is what constitutes a price. Unless someone can take a price of, say 4 competitors, and break down what each of those prices constitutes, cost breakdown, margins, demand supply, a discussion on pricing is meaningless and is a joke on both hifi and economics

Mike Lavigne · Jul 3, 2017

853guy said:
True story:

When I bought my first all-Naim system, the dealer began inviting me to events at the store and eventually, his house. We’d have wine, and cheese, get to rub shoulders with Naim’s then owners and congratulate one another on how our superior intellect and distinguished palettes had bestowed upon us the honour of being so… chosen. As much as I chuckle about it now, the reality remains that those wine and cheese evenings had a much greater influence on me climbing the Naim ladder than I could ever possibly admit at the time, and despite the fact every upgrade conferred an uptick in sound quality and subjective musical enjoyment, I’d be fooling myself to think it was sound quality alone that kept me buying black boxes with sharp edges.

Best,

853guy

I can fully relate.

in the mid to late 90's; every salesperson (and owners) at a fairly large, successful, local brick and mortar stereo shop (next to Microsoft) knew my voice when I called, I was that good a customer.....and that sort of recognition is not easily ignored....and I did not ignore it. I was part of that family.....and....'membership has it's privileges'. did this influence me? it would have had to on some levels. my gear focus then was pretty narrow.

then.....I moved on....

no regrets, those guys are still my friends, and customers at the car dealership I manage.

btw; at the dealership I manage we have plenty of brand and dealership loyalty going on and study closely customer retention numbers weekly and monthly. it's a data rich subject we live by and on. the cost of retaining a customer is much less than winning a new one. what's cool is that our manufacturer has access to various state customer data by VIN number so we get accurate information for when we lose a customer and where that customer goes. so we have a very complete picture. we still cannot perfectly connect the dots of cause and effect (although we also have surveys for that that help), but our data is good enough to get a pretty fair idea.

unlike high end audio where it's 'lick your finger and hold it up in the air' sort of data model.

microstrip · Jul 3, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Actually, all that shows is if a person gets satisfied easily or not. Marc has been long satisfied with Zus, so it should be a final speaker.

What you have never pointed out is what constitutes a price. Unless someone can take a price of, say 4 competitors, and break down what each of those prices constitutes, cost breakdown, margins, demand supply, a discussion on pricing is meaningless and is a joke on both hifi and economics

IMHO the wrong way to valuate an high-end piece. But since you suggest it please do it for us - you seem to have expertise and enjoy the idea, we will see the result and comment.

In some sense the high-end is a fight for survival - if price of a piece of equipment is excessive for its quality the market will kill it. Probably sometimes deserving products get killed and non deserving manage to survive -but IMHO it is the best we have. I prefer it to having accountants deciding for me what I should not buy, although I am always happy to hear their opinions.

bonzo75 · Jul 3, 2017

microstrip said:
IMHO the wrong way to valuate an high-end piece. But since you suggest it please do it for us - you seem to have expertise and enjoy the idea, we will see the result and comment.

In some sense the high-end is a fight for survival - if price of a piece of equipment is excessive for its quality the market will kill it. Probably sometimes deserving products get killed and non deserving manage to survive -but IMHO it is the best we have. I prefer it to having accountants deciding for me what I should not buy, although I am always happy to hear their opinions.

Actually, I am saying no one can do that price analysis, in which case price becomes irrelevant. In markets where it is relevant, most players have that analysis at hand

bonzo75 · Jul 3, 2017

And the market kills a lot of high end, the excessive pricers have the best chance of survival because people might mistake them for quality, or whatever their complex decision making criteria focused on price is

microstrip · Jul 3, 2017

bonzo75 said:
And the market kills a lot of high end, the excessive pricers have the best chance of survival because people might mistake them for quality, or whatever their complex decision making criteria focused on price is

You have little faith in high-end consumers. I have been told by our local distributors that most of the time real buyers know what they want or trust their dealers. As my usual dealer says there is also a category he calls "the chronics" - unhappy, never pleased, distrustful, always looking for great deals, who spend too much time surfing on audio websites ...

Lee · Jul 3, 2017

Jeff Fritz said:
. . . in case anyone is interested:

http://www.soundstageultra.com/inde...39-jeffs-getting-a-new-stereo-system-part-one

Thanks for reading.

Thanks Jeff. This is admirable on many levels. As a fellow reviewer, I would like to play Devil's Advocate for a minute...

In reviewing, I have always found evaluating equipment more easy once I have gotten to a fairly decent level of resolution. The more resolution one has the better one hears differences in cables, DACs, really everything.

How can you determine these differences in a more modest system very likely to have lower resolution?

As a reviewer, many of the upper end customer segments will be reading your work.

Do you worry about some reader segments dismissing your views (albeit unfairly) with a more modestly priced system?

Tango · Jul 3, 2017

Sawasdee,

I just finished reading Mr.Fritz's article. What I wonder is why he is selling away his equipments? Was the sound he used to get from these equipments no longer the sound of his preferences. If he was already satisfied with the sound from his system (which his money already "sunk" into), starting out from ground zero once again would, seems to me, only satisfied his inherent or philosophical needs that cure the twinge in his knee. Then, the other side of my brain screams at me "you stupid pud...he has his own reasons and stop answering for him."

The reason I wrote above is just to imply that we all stand in different shoes. Cant be judgemental and paint one's own legitimacy how people should make ceratin decision, because you are not in his shoes. That also goes to buying behavior. I read someone said you dont really know reasons that cause a decision or buying behavior. Indeed, we are complex creatures and we could be in different social and economic background. The price of High End now become Super High End basically because consumer base is now a lot wider, more buyers from different shoes. Is it only all bads and no goods. I think not. If the Asians have no ears but only money, by all means, go after them. Be a smart maketeer, create different versions, even limited edition, they love it. But dont be stupid to leave out the segment that is more price sensitive. Btw, I am one of those asians that like to buy expensive audio gears. If you are manufacturer, go after people like me if you can. My ears even have hearing deficiencies at 800Hz.

Enjoy the hobby,
Tang

Dr Tone · Jul 3, 2017

Lee said:
Thanks Jeff. This is admirable on many levels. As a fellow reviewer, I would like to play Devil's Advocate for a minute...

In reviewing, I have always found evaluating equipment more easy once I have gotten to a fairly decent level of resolution. The more resolution one has the better one hears differences in cables, DACs, really everything.

How can you determine these differences in a more modest system very likely to have lower resolution?

As a reviewer, many of the upper end customer segments will be reading your work.

Do you worry about some reader segments dismissing your views (albeit unfairly) with a more modestly priced system?

So if you don't spend a crap load of money on your reference system you don't have a system resolving enough for your opinion to be relevent to certain audiophiles?

RogerD · Jul 3, 2017

It’s simple: I no longer feel good about buying super-expensive gear, even at accommodation prices.

None of this changes the fact that I still value a high quality of sound in my stereo system. It’s how I get there -- to genuine high fidelity -- that has to change.

Many reviewers get there through long-term loans of gear from manufacturers. Most higher-profile reviewers accept long-term loans as a way of keeping on hand a reference system that reflects the current state of the audio art, so that they can evaluate new contenders, one of which just might alter that state. I understand this approach -- those reviewers will tell you that they can’t personally afford the gear they’re borrowing, and that readers want them to write about the most expensive gear. Such loans, they argue, are an unavoidable means to a necessary end.

I’ve chosen another path. First, I don’t want to be beholden to any manufacturer. If I “need” that loan to make my system completely state-of-the-art, how willing am I going to be to criticize the company I’m borrowing that component from? Second, I don’t want a system made up of gear that comes only from the companies willing to provide long-term loans. After all, some companies won’t do this. Consequently, I buy my gear at industry-accommodation prices, which opens the door to, essentially, all manufacturers. Of course, that, too, comes with potential compromises.

Where has this path led me? Presently, I’m without a stereo system. I’ve sold my Magicos, and the Soulutions will go soon. I’ll be searching for a system that will cost considerably less than what I had, but that still fits the ethos of SoundStage! Ultra: Sound to the Xtreme. The emphasis of my writing from now on will be on the best sound quality, not the most expensive gear.

You can't blame the man for being practical,prioritizing his spending,and being principled. Do you see more of this sentiment? I do and I don't blame anybody who has reached this conclusion. Will it change...I doubt it. On the other hand sooner or later two things will happen. Either technology whether simple or complex will bring pressure on the market or a economic downturn will occur.

Al M. · Jul 4, 2017

Dr Tone said:
So if you don't spend a crap load of money on your reference system you don't have a system resolving enough for your opinion to be relevent to certain audiophiles?

Yes, that's what it comes down to, apparently.

bonzo75 · Jul 4, 2017

microstrip said:
You have little faith in high-end consumers. I have been told by our local distributors that most of the time real buyers know what they want or trust their dealers. As my usual dealer says there is also a category he calls "the chronics" - unhappy, never pleased, distrustful, always looking for great deals, who spend too much time surfing on audio websites ...

I guess those who buy from them know what they are doing. The rest who research are chronics

Tango · Jul 4, 2017

bonzo75 said:
I guess those who buy from them know what they are doing. The rest who research are chronics

Researching for products is fun. Having experiences listening to really good systems around the world is super fortunate...something I envy.

Kind regards
Tang

morricab · Jul 4, 2017

853guy said:
Once upon a time, in order to most fully appreciate pre-recorded music in the home, consumers brought products based on brand cache.

Then, they shifted to buy based on specs and technical parameters.

During the boom of the 80s, 90s and early 2000s, they brought because of reviews.

Then, in the mid-to-late 2000s, they brought due to price.

Now, in 2017, people buy based on a confluence of the above, none of which have anything to do with inherent sound quality vis-à-vis the ability of a component to play back an art form consisting of pitch and amplitude relative to time.

If the consumer continues abdicating responsibility for the ultimate level of performance one can achieve in one’s home, preferring to assemble systems based on the above variables without taking into account the subject’s ability to comprehend the inherent nature of one of the most universally and culturally significant art forms ever to shape human history, I personally envisage a future in which the confluent variables of brand fetishism, specious objective technical measurements, reviewer rhetoric and price extremism will only accumulate greater levels of asymmetrical proportionate influence in purchasing decisions, with almost no effect on the consumer's understanding of what one should be listening for, nor why.

FWIW.

853guy

P.S. I know just as many who've assembled systems because they got it "at a great price", as those who've assembled systems because they believed paying more would automatically confer better performance. Apparently, it's just as easy to assemble a system that's sonically and/or musically deficient by paying less money, as it is by paying more.

In fact, most "normal" audiophiles (i.e. not the super rich who just start at the top price range) usually started with much more modestly priced gear and through dissatisfaction have "laddered up" to their current expenditure levels. I think up to a certain price level, there can be a pretty decent correlation with sound quality and the price still roughly reflects what the manufacturer put into it (parts, labor, advertising etc.) with a standard 4x markup. That is not really the case at the ultra end of the spectrum and therefore the correlation breaks down rather badly. This is why I think (and so does he) Jeff can dump the Magico/Soulution system and get something that sounds at least as good for a lot less dosh.

morricab · Jul 4, 2017

PeterA said:
853guy, How about those of us who think we are making purchase decisions based on sound quality and/or preference realized through listening to available alternatives, design philosophy, and dealer/manufacturer support and reputation? Are those not also valid criteria in 2017?

They are but they are heavily conflated with other parts of human psychology; namely appearance, herd mentality and the worth. Something that has beautiful industrial design will guide the purchase with the eye. If enough momentum is built on a particular brand as being the "best" then quite a lot of others will buy only on the momentum of that name and finally it is difficult not to equate price with worth. A more expensive product "must" be more worthy than a cheaper one to do the job better. This last one has been distorted in the market in the last 10 years or so to where companies that were making relatively modest priced gear (MSB once made inexpensive DACs and the top was still just a few thosand $) now make $100K gear. Sure the new stuff is probably better designed and made but not 20x or 30x better. That is distortion of a market where pricing is no longer in relation to production.

morricab · Jul 4, 2017

bonzo75 said:
And the market kills a lot of high end, the excessive pricers have the best chance of survival because people might mistake them for quality, or whatever their complex decision making criteria focused on price is

Price simplifies what is otherwise a difficult decision to a large extent.

bonzo75 · Jul 4, 2017

morricab said:
Price simplifies what is otherwise a difficult decision to a large extent.

That I agree, and we should accept it for simplifying our research, but not consider it a substitute to proper research which might lead to different conclusions.

In India they once used horoscope matches to marry. It worked many times

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