Jeff's Getting a New Stereo System

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Many Apogees, such as Duetta Signatures and Studio Grands, have quite benign loads (Duetta sigs only vary from 3-5 ohms and mostly resistive at that). So, while the sensitivity is lowish they are not a burden on the amp (the old ones like Scintillas and Full Ranges are another story). Electrostats are probably not a good speaker for amp reviews due to their high reactance that can play havoc with the stability and sound of otherwise good amps.

I owned the Duetta Signatures. Although the ribbons are resistive, they were extremely inefficient and needed to be played really loud to sound great. IMHO not a good speaker to evaluate amplifiers - I used many amplifiers that sounded great with other speakers to drive them and they did not sound decent with the Duetta´s.
 

bonzo75

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I owned the Duetta Signatures. Although the ribbons are resistive, they were extremely inefficient and needed to be played really loud to sound great. IMHO not a good speaker to evaluate amplifiers - I used many amplifiers that sounded great with other speakers to drive them and they did not sound decent with the Duetta´s.

What were you driving them with
 

DaveC

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Wouldn't saying typical generalisations are always wrong be a typical generalisation?

853guy

Of course, hence the winking smiley... and never say never again while we're at it... ;)

In this case it's true though, there are some excellent cone 'n' dome speakers in the world that are appropriate for reviewing, more appropriate than stats or horns imo as most people seem to choose cone 'n' dome speakers.
 

DaveC

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I should post why I have my opinions...

Reviewing amps used on speakers far outside the norm is basically pointless unless the amps are intended for or particularly well suited for a specific speaker type. There's also dispersion pattern, which is going to be fairly uniform and well sorted with a good cone 'n' dome, so room requirements are going to be closer to the average user, which makes reviewing other cone 'n' dome speakers a much easier task. Since the great majority of speakers are cone/dome it makes sense to have a room optimized for them, rather than setting up for dipoles and having to deal with a sub optimal room when reviewing cone/domes. Next is frequency response, which needs to be pretty close to flat to fairly review anything and make the results more applicable to more users. Unfortunately, finding ribbons, stats and horns that have excellent polar response along with frequency response isn't easy. With today's selection of advanced cones 'n' domes along with sims it's kind of trivially easy to make a cone 'n' dome speaker that meets those requirements.

This is coming from someone about to release an unconventional horn speaker. Horses for courses, my speaker sounds better than practically any cone/dome speaker for my tastes but it's not really a good choice for a primary system for someone who reviews stereo gear. IMO... but hey, I'll sell to anyone. ;) It's a good choice for a SET amp system, that's what it's intended for.
 

Jeff Fritz

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Jeff, would you join the conversation and tell us why you are thinking about various speakers and what your goals are? There seems to be a more active discussion here on WBF than on your blog about these changes that you are contemplating.

A mainstream product makes sense -- most readers won't be able to identify with exotic or one-off-type speakers. I know those choices in my article might be boring to some -- and there are others I'm thinking about -- but I want my reviews to be as relevant as I can make them. Thanks for the suggestions and keep them coming.
 

morricab

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I owned the Duetta Signatures. Although the ribbons are resistive, they were extremely inefficient and needed to be played really loud to sound great. IMHO not a good speaker to evaluate amplifiers - I used many amplifiers that sounded great with other speakers to drive them and they did not sound decent with the Duetta´s.

With the kind of amps Jeff seems to gravitate towards I do not forsee an issue. Btw, the review many years ago by Martin Colloms showed the Duetta Signatures are not horribly insensitive...did you have signatures??
 

morricab

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A mainstream product makes sense -- most readers won't be able to identify with exotic or one-off-type speakers. I know those choices in my article might be boring to some -- and there are others I'm thinking about -- but I want my reviews to be as relevant as I can make them. Thanks for the suggestions and keep them coming.

Isn't the point of reviewing though that you put in a piece of gear analyze what it does or does not do correctly and then render a critique of what you heard? We can of course be full reductionist and say your review is irrelevant unless the reader has ALL.the same gear as you...and your living space. You need speakers that REVEAL the max not cater to a lowest common denominator because that is what average Joe Audiophile has. You have to go beyond that as one giving out advice.
 

the sound of Tao

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Can any one pair of speakers cover a broad enough range of needs and pricepoints for reviewing?

I'd also have thought the gear a reviewer has benefits from being well known and reasonably familiar to many and accessible.

Some reviewers kit is made up of a range of really niche or boutique products that few if any are familiar with. Often this is super un-informative when they then start talking about what they are hearing with any gear review.

When Myles talks about his gear it is high end with very clearly definable and recognisable characteristics.

Similarly for any reviewer that is using a range of well established main stream high end products. It's just easier to understand what they are talking about and where they are coming from.

It does make sense to perhaps have two setups or a couple of reference speakers that can broaden comparisons. Quite a few reviewers have had Magnepan as one of their reference speakers possibly because hearing differences in ancillary gear is so easy to identify with the Maggies. They are also super revealing of amplifier characteristics, are affordable, need current and power but the load is a still relatively benign 5ohm load. The big ones are useless for reviewing anything under 150 watts tho but good for either a big tube or SS pairing.

So then another pair of higher sensitivity speakers (94+ db) with tube friendly impedance for also then reviewing lower power amps would also be in the mix as well.

Purely personal preferences here... I'd go a pair of Magnepan 20.7s , Harbeth 40.2s and a pair of horns... ideally Tune Animas if I could stretch that far. Cat Jl7s and Cat preamp, Shindo into Sanders and a Microzotl into a Line Magnetic LM508ia. That'd cover it for all for me fairly completely I reckon.
 
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bonzo75

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Same here, if reviewing was the main criteria I would stretch my budget to 3 different types of lower priced speakers rather than put them in one commonly recognizable one.

Shakti's approach makes more sense (currently he has a YG which was on Krell, now hypex, and a Zingali on various SETs from NAT, KR, Airtight).
 

morricab

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I think this brings up a more fundamental question of what exactly should a reviewer's system be capable of doing and should it be geared towards revealing meaningful differences between components.

If you think back to the late 80s throughout the 90s, a large % of reviewers had speakers from the likes of Apogee, Magnepan, Infinity/Genesis, Acoustat and Soundlab. The reason being, at least for that time and to my ears today as well, that these speakers made it relatively easy to hear differences between gear. When I did my big preamp shootout more than 10 years ago, my Acoustat Spectra 2200s made hearing what each piece of gear did in the system trivial...same for cable swaps. I am the first to admit that amps are more challenging because the load is not always amp friendly (I had some OTLs that oscillated badly due to the load reactance) but for preamps, cables and sources it made reviewing easy.

Many of those companies went out of business or fashion and now reviewers are using whatever they think "sounds good". What most people don't realize is that the later Apogees were easy loads for all amplifiers that could handle 4 ohms. Magnepan too. Apogees also measure well, as do Acoustats and presumably Soundlabs. They have quite linear responses with no big peaks or suckouts. My Acoustats were within 2db from 200Hz to 15Khz (then they rolled off gently). In the bass I handled room mode peaks (you can't fill in the dips) with a digital eq (digital in and out). I got linear response and coherent sound, which allows you to hear things you miss on other systems, like how gear is handling sense of space and phase relationships, which can have big impact on overall SQ.

If I read a review from someone who had Apogees or Soundlabs as speakers I tend to take the review more seriously because I know how well you can hear things with these types of speakers. Someone reviewing on a pair of Harbeths...well... If they have horns I still have to think a bit about what I know of that speakers potential weakness and strengths. They are not as linear as the best planar speakers. They will be better for assessing dynamics but perhaps not tonality and timbre or perhaps micro dynamics (I still find stats the best for evaluating the subtleties of music).

One thing I think is critical is to avoid multi-way, high order crossover speakers that are using multiple driver material technologies. This will smear timing, tonality and dynamics...something you notice compared to live and to systems with a different concept.

I am assuming that Jeff can have only one system and therefore I think as reviewing is a profession for him he should consider, as a professional, what tools allow him to do the job of reviewing gear the best and not what the public would consider "conventional". Tools of the pro need to be considered more for a specific purpose rather than just general listening pleasure (of course they should allow this too but not cover up flaws). That is the major flaw I see in Jeff's candidate list is that these are not speakers that will allow the pro reviewer to be at his best...it will be harder work. Sure, once you get very familiar with a system you can learn to hear around it's flaws and to still hear differences but when those flaws are minimized it makes life a lot easier.

If I go back to reviewing again (for the third time) I would likely have a pair of planars specifically for that purpose. Maybe something like the Acoustat X with built-in OTL amps and then just review everything except amps.

Finally, quite a few reviewers out there have turned to Audio Note speakers. In one way this is baffling because in some ways they are quite colored but in another it is understandable because 1) They are simple and don't get all messed up by crossovers 2) they are reasonably sensitive and have a pretty widebandwidth (if placed near the corners) and an easy load...so flexible and 3) You can differentiate between components with them pretty readily (the colorations they have don't seem to gum up the resolution works too badly). IMO, they are too flawed overall but I can see why they attract people.

It is interesting to note that Art Dudley has taken the multiple speaker approach (or at least he used to). He had AN speakers, Quads and some Altecs oh and I think he had Orangutans as well. Maybe now he is only with the old Altecs as he has become a bit of an anachrophile (after hearing some old designs I can see why though).
 

the sound of Tao

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The 20.7s are there to let me identify absolutely everything that is going on... for those days when the gear has been on long enough (days) and the recording is just ideal and the setup and speaker dial in is perfect. Then you are there. Then all is sublime. This is transcendent.

The Harbeth 40.2s are there for everyday when the recording isn't exactly perfect because the Harbys don't draw your attention to the sound, yes, there is still focus and resolution at the centre but the focus is primarily on the music. They are tricksters and they will make Tidal streaming musically satisfying enough that you won't really care if it isn't the high res version that you are listening to, you are just connected to the music. This isn't really a reviewers tool, just a retreat from analysis and the cruel downside of having revealing gear when things aren't good. They are the refreshing sanity of every day music making that give a balanced and completely satisfying and real alternative perspective to the crazy obsession of extremities of seeking perfection in sound.

The Animas are something else again. It is almost a spiritual connection that defies description. It is soul. It is whole. They don't scream difference in cables or in overly convoluted resonance control. They do however tell you if the source and amplification that you feed into them is ultimately sufficiently magical and soulful. Fundamentally true in spirit if not absolutely in context.
 

bonzo75

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Do people pay less attention to Michael Fremer's reviews of source components because he uses cone/dome speakers with SS amps?

People would pay attention to his source components whatever speakers he uses, because there are so many analog components that pass through there. Where else are you going to read about all this?
 

morricab

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Do people pay less attention to Michael Fremer's reviews of source components because he uses cone/dome speakers with SS amps?

I know I pay less attention... but what I find particularly telling though is when he sticks tube gear into his system. Like when he reviewed the Lamm ML3 monos...you could almost smell the fear for his darT monos!
 

morricab

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The 20.7s are there to let me identify absolutely everything that is going on... for those days when the gear has been on long enough (days) and the recording is just ideal and the setup and speaker dial in is perfect. Then you are there. Then all is sublime. This is transcendent.

The Harbeth 40.2s are there for everyday when the recording isn't exactly perfect because the Harbys don't draw your attention to the sound, yes, there is still focus and resolution at the centre but the focus is primarily on the music. They are tricksters and they will make Tidal streaming musically satisfying enough that you won't really care if it isn't the high res version that you are listening to, you are just connected to the music. This isn't really a reviewers tool, just a retreat from analysis and the cruel downside of having revealing gear when things aren't good. They are the refreshing sanity of every day music making that give a balanced and completely satisfying and real alternative perspective to the crazy obsession of extremities of seeking perfection in sound.

The Animas are something else again. It is almost a spiritual connection that defies description. It is soul. It is whole. They don't scream difference in cables or in overly convoluted resonance control. They do however tell you if the source and amplification that you feed into them is ultimately sufficiently magical and soulful. Fundamentally true in spirit if not absolutely in context.

Sounds like a balanced strategy but do you find yourself gravitating towards one of the three as being more "right"?
 

BMCG

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Do people pay less attention to Michael Fremer's reviews of source components because he uses cone/dome speakers with SS amps?

i pay less attention to his viewpoint when its vinyl specific...but setting aside that curious proclivity in a digital age :).....

I accord his view on how well the Dartzeel's play with the Alexx....much heed...to the point of actively contemplating auditioning that combo.
 

bonzo75

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i pay less attention to his viewpoint when its vinyl specific...but setting aside that curious proclivity in a digital age :).....

I accord his view on how well the Dartzeel's play with the Alexx....much heed...to the point of actively contemplating auditioning that combo.

Which are the ones you are auditioning, the big Darts, or the smaller ones
 

PeterA

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People would pay attention to his source components whatever speakers he uses, because there are so many analog components that pass through there. Where else are you going to read about all this?

So for you Ked, it does not seem to matter that Fremer is not seem to be taking a more general approach. Jeff is soliciting opinions for his reference system and his blog and this forum participants are his potential readers. The range of views on this is pretty interesting. It started out being all about Jeff's system and now it is also about how a reviewer should approach his task.
 

BMCG

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Which are the ones you are auditioning, the big Darts, or the smaller ones

Am keen to benchmark the large Darts (458 or 468)...more easily said than done.
 

bonzo75

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So for you Ked, it does not seem to matter that Fremer is not seem to be taking a more general approach. Jeff is soliciting opinions for his reference system and his blog and this forum participants are his potential readers. The range of views on this is pretty interesting. It started out being all about Jeff's system and now it is also about how a reviewer should approach his task.

Completely different things...Fremer has his system, like Jeff did. No one said anything. Jeff then said he is selling off his system and downsizing, and in the process seems not to have investigated new sounds.

Regarding Fremer, your question was specifically how one views his source reports...i am not saying he is right or wrong, just that people do not have a choice of reading those components in many places... They would have read it irrespective of what speakers and strategy he had.
 

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