Jeff's Getting a New Stereo System

morricab · Oct 3, 2017

If new only:
Acapella Cellini
Odeon No.33 (if you can find it in US...might have to import)
JBL M2 or K2 S9900
Genesis 5.3 (or whatever is latest version)
Wilson Sascha (latest version)
Evolution Acoustics (highest model that falls below 40K mark).
Vandersteen 5a carbon
Dynamikks! Monitor 15.18
Horning Eufrodite Eclipse
Acoustic Zen Crescendo

If used as well then consider:
Dali Megaline III (or whatever was last version...now discontinued)
Tannoy Westminster
JBL Everest DD67000
Odeon No. 38
Genesis 2 Jr.
Von schweikert VR9se
Vandersteen 7
Refurbished Apogees

Just some ideas that are less obvious than the usual suspects.

KeithR · Oct 3, 2017

I hate to be this way, but I've always thought Jeff would end up with Magico S5mkiis + Devialet. Quite frankly, an uninteresting "experience" to read about but maybe he will prove me wrong.

I think the JBL 4367 would be something quite interesting for Jeff to try as the M2 has built-in amps which don't work for reviewing. However, from reading his Dynaudio Contour 60 review in between the lines that he can't give up that much hence the new 40k target.

I do find it mildly amusing that "downsizing" is from a $350k system to a $100k one.

bonzo75 · Oct 3, 2017

Jeff Fritz said:
I'd love to hear what you have in mind. Thanks.

Have you tried to experience alternate sounds (SETs, horns, planars, push pulls) before settling on one? Because your choice seems close to the sound you already had.

Speakers - Restored Apogees, Logans with Push Pull valves (a must, no SS amps), YG Hailey, Stenheim Alumine 5, Trios, don't know which other horns are available in the US - plenty in EU. All these should have a max price of the S5 Mk II, with Apogees being the lowest and the best IMO, Trios being as good but priced out of that range, though the cost of amps is then lower. Try other horns too.

Amps - Try some SETs on horns, push pulls and SS on the others. If you are trying to reduce costs from Gryphon Mephsito, then Symphonic Line Kraft, Berning Quadratures, and Luxman m900u are good suspects doing various different things, along with Lamm hybrids, VAC, and AR.

PeterA · Oct 3, 2017

KeithR said:
I do find it mildly amusing that "downsizing" is from a $350k system to a $100k one.

It certainly is when discussing real estate or sailboats.

Seriously, moving to any of the above mentioned speakers after living with the Magico Q7II would be quite literally, "downsizing".

bonzo75 · Oct 3, 2017

PeterA said:
It certainly is when discussing real estate or sailboats.

Seriously, moving to any of the above mentioned speakers after living with the Magico Q7II would be quite literally, "downsizing".

Or a massive sonic upgrade, various perspectives, but question is whether they have been investigated

PeterA · Oct 3, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Or a massive sonic upgrade, various perspectives, but question is whether they have been investigated

Funny. My point was about the physical size of the Q7II (literally: downsizing) versus the other speakers mentioned by Jeff. It had nothing to do with sonics.

bonzo75 · Oct 3, 2017

PeterA said:
Funny. My point was about the physical size of the Q7II (literally: downsizing) versus the other speakers mentioned by Jeff. It had nothing to do with sonics.

Ah. I thought I was missing something, though horns are big and planars are tall. Also, another thing I don't see and I am a fan of with cones, is subs. If I was to have a cone system, I would buy one I could crossover well, the Marty model

RogerD · Oct 3, 2017

I'm sure Jefff can put together a stellar system for a 100k. If he can buy used(i don't think so) there was a great speaker buy on eBay a few weeks ago for 500 bucks...to far away for me to ship.

Folsom · Oct 3, 2017

KeithR said:
I think the JBL 4367 would be something quite interesting for Jeff to try as the M2 has built-in amps which don't work for reviewing. However, from reading his Dynaudio Contour 60 review in between the lines that he can't give up that much hence the new 40k target.

I do find it mildly amusing that "downsizing" is from a $350k system to a $100k one.

The M2 amps are not built in, but they do provide some EQ that you may otherwise need to account for... there is no crossover so he'd need two amps at a time. Anyway, still a good point to be made.

Downsizing from $350k to $100k is more or less like changing taste, not as much performance. Both are typically in the diminishing returns arena. Now $15k, that would be more interesting of a squeeze. You can without a doubt make incredible systems for less $, depending on what level of participation you are willing to apply. Fact is, he's still with SoundStage Ultra, so I'm not sure how much since it would make to really go down to the budget system level. Although there are without a doubt merit to the viability and goal setting - such can be worked at by others.

jeff1225 · Oct 3, 2017

The Crown amps that run the M2's provide all of the massive DSP that has to be applied to the speakers, they also have built in fans that can be quite annoying.

I agree with Keith that the JBL 4367 would be a great choice and something different than just going down market on Magico

DaveC · Oct 3, 2017

M2s are for studios, I can't imagine buying them and putting them in any ol' room. I'd go with a Revel instead (sticking with Harman products). I think the 4367 is a far better choice, paired with a good tube amp instead of Crowns, and a decent value.

If I was a reviewer I think I'd limit myself to something closer to a typical 3-way direct radiator though. Boring... maybe, but it's what a great majority of people own. Actually, the Revel Salon 2 at around $20k might be worth considering, it's priced VERY fairly vs the lux brands imo.

EDIT: and add these for $10k/pr

http://www.funkaudio.ca/store/p51/Funk_Audio_21.0LX.html

morricab · Oct 4, 2017

DaveC said:
M2s are for studios, I can't imagine buying them and putting them in any ol' room. I'd go with a Revel instead (sticking with Harman products). I think the 4367 is a far better choice, paired with a good tube amp instead of Crowns, and a decent value.

If I was a reviewer I think I'd limit myself to something closer to a typical 3-way direct radiator though. Boring... maybe, but it's what a great majority of people own. Actually, the Revel Salon 2 at around $20k might be worth considering, it's priced VERY fairly vs the lux brands imo.

EDIT: and add these for $10k/pr

http://www.funkaudio.ca/store/p51/Funk_Audio_21.0LX.html

I disagree, as a reviewer you need a tool that has sufficient resolution and differentiation to allow you to hear minute changes in sound character that the DUT imparts on the sound compared to whatever the reviewer is using as reference gear. Being able to clearly hear the differences can be rather objective if you have a sufficiently transparent and resolving/differentiating system. How those audible differences relate to how it should sound is the matter of subjectivity and what the reviewer then thinks reality should sound like.

That is why for a reviewer something like full-range ribbons or electrostats makes for a good audio "microscope" to hear such differences. Horns can also be good in this respect if it is a design with the more onerous horn colorations under control. Of course electrostats and ribbons, unless huge, will not have the ability to cope with the largest dynamics at realistic volumes. But for less dynamic material and/or more modest listening conditions I have found that it is far easier to hear electronics induced sound changes with a top notch planar speaker or horn.

That is not to say there are not dynamic speakers which can compete but it is not as obvious often and most box speakers are relatively low resolution by comparison. The Thiel CS3.7 is one that has hyper resolution but is no longer made. It also has a tendency towards being a bit bright but it sure tells you what is feeding it.

I think the typical, multi-way, high order crossover cone/dome, vented box woofer speaker is inadequate for the task of being a reviewer.

bonzo75 · Oct 4, 2017

I was thinking the same thing. I have found Apogees, and then Logans, show the highest variance to change in amps and upstream electronics (change from digital to analog, for example, or change in valves). They can totally make or break the speaker, and difficult to get a view of the speaker without the right amp match. The ideal reviewer for me will have a low sensitivity speaker with a high power/current amp and a high sensitivity speaker for SET reviews and so he will have two alternate sounds. There are enough reviewers with standard cones anyway. Though that's where the market for the readers is, I guess.

microstrip · Oct 4, 2017

bonzo75 said:
I was thinking the same thing. I have found Apogees, and then Logans, show the highest variance to change in amps and upstream electronics (change from digital to analog, for example, or change in valves). (...)

Apogees and Logans are atypical loads for amplifiers and have awkward sensitivity to amplifiers, most of the time impossible to explain. IMHO they are too specific to be used for general appreciation of amplifiers.

Reviewers have their preferences and usually use their preferred speakers, sometimes complementing the review with what they have in their system at that time. Readers should be aware of reviewer preferences.

PeterA · Oct 4, 2017

Jeff, would you join the conversation and tell us why you are thinking about various speakers and what your goals are? There seems to be a more active discussion here on WBF than on your blog about these changes that you are contemplating.

GMKF · Oct 4, 2017

Maybee the Lansche 5.2 ? https://www.lansche-audio.com/produkte/no-5-2/
Germany Price is 31.000€ so should be around 40k in the US. Dont know... Dealer is: http://www.aaudioimports.com/

Very interesting concept with the Plasma Tweeter.

Liked it very much at the 2017 Munich Hifi Show with EMM-Lab electronics. Great dynamics in my opinion.

bonzo75 · Oct 4, 2017

microstrip said:
Apogees and Logans are atypical loads for amplifiers and have awkward sensitivity to amplifiers, most of the time impossible to explain. IMHO they are too specific to be used for general appreciation of amplifiers.

Reviewers have their preferences and usually use their preferred speakers, sometimes complementing the review with what they have in their system at that time. Readers should be aware of reviewer preferences.

I would expect reviewers to try and explore their preferences. Preferences change over time and with experience, in which case with someone with larger exposure to gear, like a reviewer, there should be more change. Otherwise, I view that as a lack of progress.

morricab · Oct 4, 2017

microstrip said:
Apogees and Logans are atypical loads for amplifiers and have awkward sensitivity to amplifiers, most of the time impossible to explain. IMHO they are too specific to be used for general appreciation of amplifiers.

Reviewers have their preferences and usually use their preferred speakers, sometimes complementing the review with what they have in their system at that time. Readers should be aware of reviewer preferences.

Many Apogees, such as Duetta Signatures and Studio Grands, have quite benign loads (Duetta sigs only vary from 3-5 ohms and mostly resistive at that). So, while the sensitivity is lowish they are not a burden on the amp (the old ones like Scintillas and Full Ranges are another story). Electrostats are probably not a good speaker for amp reviews due to their high reactance that can play havoc with the stability and sound of otherwise good amps.

DaveC · Oct 4, 2017

morricab said:
I think the typical, multi-way, high order crossover cone/dome, vented box woofer speaker is inadequate for the task of being a reviewer.

I think typical generalizations are always wrong....

853guy · Oct 4, 2017

DaveC said:
I think typical generalizations are always wrong....

Wouldn't saying typical generalisations are always wrong be a typical generalisation?

853guy

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