Jeff's Getting a New Stereo System

microstrip · Sep 5, 2017

bonzo75 said:
That's why most of us have different valves to change the gain and impedance match accordingly, and why flyer also changed bias accordingly. And that's why for me after the speaker is Lampi, then the power amp to drive the speaker, and then the pre that will match the gain between the 242 and the rest. The flexibilty to change bias/adjust with valves is an advantage. And as for compares, they should be done across systems, like with cartridges

When you change the tubes and bias affecting gain by such magnitudes you are changing distortion patterns significantly - IMHO it is a different game, but as valid as any other in this hobby. Typical tube rolling uses electrical equivalent tubes and keeps gain, the main differences in sound are due to mechanical characteristics and noise spectra of the tube.

Steve Williams · Sep 5, 2017

microstrip said:
When you change the tubes and bias affecting gain by such magnitudes you are changing distortion patterns significantly - IMHO it is a different game, but as valid as any other in this hobby. Typical tube rolling uses electrical equivalent tubes and keeps gain, the main differences in sound are due to mechanical characteristics and noise spectra of the tube.

+1

morricab · Sep 5, 2017

microstrip said:
When you change the tubes and bias affecting gain by such magnitudes you are changing distortion patterns significantly - IMHO it is a different game, but as valid as any other in this hobby. Typical tube rolling uses electrical equivalent tubes and keeps gain, the main differences in sound are due to mechanical characteristics and noise spectra of the tube.

+2

I would add that probably there is some potentially audible difference in the distortion patterns even rolling electrically equivalent tubes but gain will be the same as will output impedance. For Kassandra changing bias will affect the distortion pattern but not the output impedance significantly because it is transformer coupled giving it a very low output impedance. Of course rolling different types of tubes in a circuit without changing the plate voltage and bias will generate wildly different patterns of distortion, voltage output levels and output impedances. How does Lampizator decide on Vplate and bias current? Is it optimized for just one type and the rest is a big gamble? Is it placed somewhere in the middle and not a perfect fit to any tube? Most tubes will work over a wide range of Vplate and bias but that doesn't mean they will work well.

PeterA · Sep 5, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Analog is much more complex, so in some ways a poorer analogy, but if you do a cart compare across different TT arms and phonos and each time, one cart comes across as rolled off, one comes across as coloured, one as neutral, you can draw out some attributes that repeat.

Bonzo, Would these be different TTs, arms and phonos in the same system, or in different systems in different rooms with different music over time? I would find it extremely difficult to recognize a particular sonic trait across these varying circumstances and then conclude that it is the cartridge that is responsible for a particular sound. However, I fully understand that people describe various cartridges as having particular traits, consistent with others' impressions, and these conclusions are reached by different people across a whole spectrum of conditions.

I prefer to evaluate a cartridge in my own system if possible.

microstrip · Sep 5, 2017

PeterA said:
(...) I prefer to evaluate a cartridge in my own system if possible.

IMHO the only way to do it. We must separate listening from evaluation. I listen to a lot of equipment outside my system - if by chance it has some aspects that I find exceptional or relevant according to my preferences I tick it for my "possible list" or recommending to friends - a relevant audiophile social activity.

And I must say I evaluate it for my system - not for grading it or stating to others it is the best in the world.

Cartridges are too dependent of turntable and tonearm and show an enormous variation of sound parameters, the evaluation will strongly depend on the LP being played - even the pressing. I remember that at some time I had a German, an UK and a national pressing of Bob Dylan "Desire" - their balance was so different that one sounded better with a the Sumiko Talisman and another needed Koetsu!

PeterA · Sep 5, 2017

microstrip said:
IMHO the only way to do it. We must separate listening from evaluation. I listen to a lot of equipment outside my system - if by chance it has some aspects that I find exceptional or relevant according to my preferences I tick it for my "possible list" or recommending to friends - a relevant audiophile social activity. And I must say I evaluate it for my system - not for grading it or stating to others it is the best in the world.

Cartridges are too dependent of turntable and tonearm and show an enormous variation of sound parameters, the evaluation will strongly depend on the LP being played - even the pressing. I remember that at some time I had a German, an UK and a national pressing of Bob Dylan "Desire" - their balance was so different that one sounded better with a the Sumiko Talisman and another needed Koetsu!

It is a wonder that we can ever sort it all out and find sonic happiness. I tend to count my blessings and not loose sleep over some of the possibilities.

bonzo75 · Sep 5, 2017

PeterA said:
Bonzo, Would these be different TTs, arms and phonos in the same system, or in different systems in different rooms with different music over time? I would find it extremely difficult to recognize a particular sonic trait across these varying circumstances and then conclude that it is the cartridge that is responsible for a particular sound. However, I fully understand that people describe various cartridges as having particular traits, consistent with others' impressions, and these conclusions are reached by different people across a whole spectrum of conditions.

I prefer to evaluate a cartridge in my own system if possible.

Yes, I am taking about different arms, phonos, and TTs for the cart. I do agree with analog it's extremely difficult to find consistent sonic traits, but you will not find it difficult to recognize the cartridge contributions is you swap that cart with something else in those systems. For example, Lyra Atlas vs Ortofon as95 in one, Atlas vs KOetsu in another, Atlas vs Shelter harmony, etc...and simultaneously you will get to hear Atlas with different arms and phonos.

IMO hearing in your own system is limited by budgetary restrictions, unless you can buy multiple arms, phonos, and carts to know what is the best cart for you. Demoing a cart inhome is difficult. Take DaveyF's thread, you can see how many have bought a cart without listening. Saying I would like to demo it at home is ideal, and sure, in an ideal situation everyone at their price point would like to line up many for a compare, please let me know how many do that.

Now take micro, for example...he currently has an ARC set up, a CJ set up, and Lamm hybrids to evaluate on his Wilsons. Plus a facility close to him for Dags and Constellation. How many have that luxury? In that case home evaluation is fine, but otherwise it means nothing if someone who owns a Nagra on a Wilson buys an ARC and says oh wow, it is so fantastic. I would interpret that as you were probably underdriving your speaker, now you moved over to a decent amp, and haven't yet evaluated other options. Likewise, Micro's feedback would be great for someone who owns Wilsons and similar, but not for Logans and Apogees (unless, of course, you get him to move his Wilsons and repeat the evaluation on the Soundlab Ultimates

and check for consistencies, but again, how many can do that)?

bonzo75 · Sep 5, 2017

morricab said:
+2

I would add that probably there is some potentially audible difference in the distortion patterns even rolling electrically equivalent tubes but gain will be the same as will output impedance. For Kassandra changing bias will affect the distortion pattern but not the output impedance significantly because it is transformer coupled giving it a very low output impedance. Of course rolling different types of tubes in a circuit without changing the plate voltage and bias will generate wildly different patterns of distortion, voltage output levels and output impedances. How does Lampizator decide on Vplate and bias current? Is it optimized for just one type and the rest is a big gamble? Is it placed somewhere in the middle and not a perfect fit to any tube? Most tubes will work over a wide range of Vplate and bias but that doesn't mean they will work well.

Mine is optimized for 242, as is Bill's, but we can use other valves.

morricab · Sep 6, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Mine is optimized for 242, as is Bill's, but we can use other valves.

So, yours came from Lampizator installed with 242s?

bonzo75 · Sep 6, 2017

morricab said:
So, yours came from Lampizator installed with 242s?

I had 242s on my big 7, so when I moved to GG, I asked the GG to be constructed with 242 as the stock valve. Bill did the same. Dctom's new GG is the same, configured to 242. The UK distro was planning to get his with the special EML 45s as stock - I don't know if he has one now, I am looking to compare it at some point, as that's usually my second favorite valve in systems where it works (KR PX25 and the special EML 45s are the other two valves I own).

bonzo75 · Sep 6, 2017

PeterA said:
It is a wonder that we can ever sort it all out and find sonic happiness.

Sonic happiness can be easily found. For many it is the sorting out process that provides happiness. WHat's best forum is also a What if forum, with people in their own way trying to figure out What If I changed this to that, or How would that other thing sound forum

Lee · Sep 12, 2017

Well said. I think the value of forums is sharing knowledge which can help guide priorities on 1. where to spend the "next dollar" optimally and 2. what are best practices for getting the best sound from room acoustics to speaker-amp matching to the foundation of power, cables, and various accessories.

bonzo75 said:
Sonic happiness can be easily found. For many it is the sorting out process that provides happiness. WHat's best forum is also a What if forum, with people in their own way trying to figure out What If I changed this to that, or How would that other thing sound forum

bonzo75 · Sep 12, 2017

morricab said:
At my place in my system

Sorry forgot to ask before and the thread bump today reminded me - was this Patryk's GA when he was there at yours?

Jeff Fritz · Oct 2, 2017

Speaker brands . . .

http://www.soundstageultra.com/inde...6-jeffs-getting-a-new-stereo-system-part-four

PeterA · Oct 2, 2017

Jeff Fritz said:
Speaker brands . . .

http://www.soundstageultra.com/inde...6-jeffs-getting-a-new-stereo-system-part-four

Most interesting. I particularly like the Tac CR1, the Magico S5II, and the Eggleston Viginti. I used to own the Eggleston Rosa which was a really nice speaker and great looking, IMO. These aren't cheap, but quite a departure from the Magico Q7II.

Folsom · Oct 2, 2017

Surprisingly boring speaker choices.

RogerD · Oct 2, 2017

Folsom said:
Surprisingly boring speaker choices.

Lol....and you were expecting?

DaveC · Oct 2, 2017

For TAD, I don't see why you wouldn't go with the Evolution Towers for nearly the same price as the CE-1 and get a 2nd woofer and no need for stands.

However, the issue with going with smaller speakers, including the TAD Evo towers or any smaller floorstander, is lack of woofer surface area... you just won't/can't get reference level bass performance out of two <10" woofers. For a review system this seems like a problem.

NorthStar · Oct 2, 2017

Roger, were you @ that concert last night, and if not how far are you from the venue?
Very sad, heartbreaking, my thoughts are with you all in these very difficult times.

RogerD · Oct 2, 2017

NorthStar said:
Roger, where you @ that concert last night, and if not how far are you from the venue?
Very sad, heartbreaking, my thoughts are with you all in these very difficult times.

Hi Bob,
I'm in Reno. The suspect had a house in Somerset and the FBI is there now. I'm safe...thanks...a unspeakable Tragedy.

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