First Sounds: Grand Prix Audio Monaco 2.0

tima

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I'm fascinated by the idea of greater and greater speed accuracy and stability. Does anyone know how speed accurate and stable the original cutting lathes were? It seems this new GPA table may be more accurate. I now wonder if the LP was cut at a less accurate rate and if this is now or may one day be audible. It this a real or imagined concern?

I don't have an answer to your question about lathe accuracy, but know that it is genuine and active concern, along with concentricity (off-center holes) whose problems can be audible. As reproduction technology improves, some folks regard the biggest impediment facing vinyl today is the physical record itself. The last of the highly regarded VMS-70 and VMS-80 series Neumann lathes were made in the mid-1970s. A lot of techology has come down the pike since then, just like that used by GPA, which could be applied toward building a 'modern' lathe. Going farther out, I've read of the concept of creating a 3D model of a record in software that allows precise adjustment of groove placement, width and depth. I can imagine a record manufactured using such a model as the instructions into the same technology used by 3D object printers today. Such as VPI is using to make tonearms. That might mean no more lathes.

But let's suppose the average lathe used in the record making process is less accurate speed-wise than the 'table used to play the record created with it. The sonic improvements offered by the hyper accurate and stable 'table are still very audible - or so my ears tell me. I do want to learn if other listeners hear something similar or different. Are there new thresholds to be crossed in speed accuracy and stability? I kinda doubt it, but remain happy knowing there are folks out there trying to improve la vida vinyl.
 

Tango

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The sonic improvements offered by the hyper accurate and stable 'table are still very audible - or so my ears tell me. I do want to learn if other listeners hear something similar or different. Are there new thresholds to be crossed in speed accuracy and stability? I kinda doubt it, but remain happy knowing there are folks out there trying to improve la vida vinyl.

Dear Sir,

Yesterday I had such OOh, Ahh, Wow, foottaping, face grinning listening experience from my system using Kronos. This morning I started my day listening again only wondering what all the sudden went wrong with my system. The sound was no where near yesterday. The music was disoriented, less dynamic, less impact, less transparent, not involving and just not it. It took me a while to realize that the speed of my Kronos was fluctuating b/w 33.1-33.4. So I turned it off and restarted. When it was on again with the speed peg to 33.3, my system got back to where it was and really started singing wonderfully again. An hour later, lifeless music started again. Yes, the Kronos speed went nervous again. The point is speed is so crucial to get top sound. What happened to me this morning makes me think of your thread describing the sonic excellence of the Monaco 2.0.

Kind regards,
Tang
 

theophile

Well-Known Member
Dear Sir,

Yesterday I had such OOh, Ahh, Wow, foottaping, face grinning listening experience from my system using Kronos. This morning I started my day listening again only wondering what all the sudden went wrong with my system. The sound was no where near yesterday. The music was disoriented, less dynamic, less impact, less transparent, not involving and just not it. It took me a while to realize that the speed of my Kronos was fluctuating b/w 33.1-33.4. So I turned it off and restarted. When it was on again with the speed peg to 33.3, my system got back to where it was and really started singing wonderfully again. An hour later, lifeless music started again. Yes, the Kronos speed went nervous again. The point is speed is so crucial to get top sound. What happened to me this morning makes me think of your thread describing the sonic excellence of the Monaco 2.0.

Kind regards,
Tang

The irony of this observation is that Kronos means 'Time'.
 

spiritofmusic

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So, I'm a little unsure about something here.
The old GP1.5 in effect only eased speed twds stability once or twice a record side, and now the 2.0 might only have to do this once.
And this is what results in a dramatic impvt in SQ btwn the two?
Nothing else in terms of materials use or mechanical application?
Just going from a few adjustments on speed per side to a single adjustment on average?
I'm just not seeing where the major upstick is coming from.
 

tima

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Mar 3, 2014
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So, I'm a little unsure about something here.
The old GP1.5 in effect only eased speed twds stability once or twice a record side, and now the 2.0 might only have to do this once.
And this is what results in a dramatic impvt in SQ btwn the two?
Nothing else in terms of materials use or mechanical application?
Just going from a few adjustments on speed per side to a single adjustment on average?
I'm just not seeing where the major upstick is coming from.

Not sure where this came from: "The old GP1.5 in effect only eased speed twds stability once or twice a record side, and now the 2.0 might only have to do this once." Do you have a reference?

I don't think I can 'see' the difference but I certainly heard it. That sonic improvements come from increased accuracy and a lower noise floor, with emphasis on the former, is a deduction based on the measured physical improvements made in the v2.0 and listening to the the 1.5 and 2.0.. Once you've heard the 'table for a while and become familiar with its construction and operation, and differences between the two models, I'd be very interested to learn your own conclusions about the cause or reason for the sonic differences beyond increased accuracy and lower noise.

For now, I have no further explanation nor apparently does the team that designed and built the 2.0. Once it was determnined how to increase accuracy and stability and how to implement that design, no one knew what results would come. It was an experiment. The team figured there would be improvements, but, so I'm told, they were very surprised at the end results. I had no knowledge about any of that until after I published. Alvin Lloyd was steadfast in not offering suggestions about what to expect from listening. I've written elsewhere that while ultimately it makes no sense, listening validates the numbers. I believe the explanations cited for the improvements.

You ask: "Nothing else in terms of materials use or mechanical application?" The v2 does have a new drive system. Try the link in the first post of this thread to read about differences between the 1.5 and 2.0.

Thanks for the inquiry. I appreciate your scepticism.
 

tima

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Mar 3, 2014
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Dear Sir,

Yesterday I had such OOh, Ahh, Wow, foottaping, face grinning listening experience from my system using Kronos. This morning I started my day listening again only wondering what all the sudden went wrong with my system. The sound was no where near yesterday. The music was disoriented, less dynamic, less impact, less transparent, not involving and just not it. It took me a while to realize that the speed of my Kronos was fluctuating b/w 33.1-33.4. So I turned it off and restarted. When it was on again with the speed peg to 33.3, my system got back to where it was and really started singing wonderfully again. An hour later, lifeless music started again. Yes, the Kronos speed went nervous again. The point is speed is so crucial to get top sound. What happened to me this morning makes me think of your thread describing the sonic excellence of the Monaco 2.0.

Kind regards,
Tang

I agree Tang. Thanks for your note!
 

awsmone

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2014
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Dear Sir,

Yesterday I had such OOh, Ahh, Wow, foottaping, face grinning listening experience from my system using Kronos. This morning I started my day listening again only wondering what all the sudden went wrong with my system. The sound was no where near yesterday. The music was disoriented, less dynamic, less impact, less transparent, not involving and just not it. It took me a while to realize that the speed of my Kronos was fluctuating b/w 33.1-33.4. So I turned it off and restarted. When it was on again with the speed peg to 33.3, my system got back to where it was and really started singing wonderfully again. An hour later, lifeless music started again. Yes, the Kronos speed went nervous again. The point is speed is so crucial to get top sound. What happened to me this morning makes me think of your thread describing the sonic excellence of the Monaco 2.0.

Kind regards,
Tang
what will really do your head in ...the lower platter doesn't even have speed stability
 

spiritofmusic

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Awsmone, don't get me wrong.
I've heard the 1.5 a few times and absolutely love it.
For my part, I've moved away from belt (to rim drive, maybe next to idler drive), and I won't readily return.
Maybe I misunderstood one of the reviews, but the impression I got re the 1.5 was that there was only sporadic correction of speed going on (w the speed control being so good to begin with), and the 2.0 corrects even less often - did I misread the review where it said the 2.0 might only physically correct once or twice per lp side?
Re the changes in materials and engineering btwn the 1.5 and 2.0, yes, I'm sure there is a lot.
I have read somewhere the 2.0 has much greater torque than the 1.5 (fully up to speed in less than two revolutions), and I suspect this may be adding as much as anything to a more hypnotic sound - for my part, I really do feel this is where belt drive gets left behind (the Kuzma Stabi M and XL being honourable exceptions).
 

awsmone

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your right in that 1.5 is a lower torque design

i not sure the 2.0 is more torque?

i have high torque DD such as sp 10 and Sony Psx9 ( which is also very quiet)

i owned a thorens 124/schoppers for a long time and under the appeal.....
 

bonzo75

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Awsmone, don't get me wrong.
I've heard the 1.5 a few times and absolutely love it.
For my part, I've moved away from belt (to rim drive, maybe next to idler drive), and I won't readily return.
Maybe I misunderstood one of the reviews, but the impression I got re the 1.5 was that there was only sporadic correction of speed going on (w the speed control being so good to begin with), and the 2.0 corrects even less often - did I misread the review where it said the 2.0 might only physically correct once or twice per lp side?
Re the changes in materials and engineering btwn the 1.5 and 2.0, yes, I'm sure there is a lot.
I have read somewhere the 2.0 has much greater torque than the 1.5 (fully up to speed in less than two revolutions), and I suspect this may be adding as much as anything to a more hypnotic sound - for my part, I really do feel this is where belt drive gets left behind (the Kuzma Stabi M and XL being honourable exceptions).

You can go listen to the Stabi M at Hastings, playing with a 1500 quid Transfig cart, and Airtight ATE-2005 phono, and and compare it to the Select 2, MSB transport and power supply. That should answer your queries of analog vs Select 2.
 

jfrech

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Awsmone, don't get me wrong.
I've heard the 1.5 a few times and absolutely love it.
For my part, I've moved away from belt (to rim drive, maybe next to idler drive), and I won't readily return.
Maybe I misunderstood one of the reviews, but the impression I got re the 1.5 was that there was only sporadic correction of speed going on (w the speed control being so good to begin with), and the 2.0 corrects even less often - did I misread the review where it said the 2.0 might only physically correct once or twice per lp side?
Re the changes in materials and engineering btwn the 1.5 and 2.0, yes, I'm sure there is a lot.
I have read somewhere the 2.0 has much greater torque than the 1.5 (fully up to speed in less than two revolutions), and I suspect this may be adding as much as anything to a more hypnotic sound - for my part, I really do feel this is where belt drive gets left behind (the Kuzma Stabi M and XL being honourable exceptions).

Spirit, I remember that review, don't recall where or who wrote it. I think both you and Tima are correct here. The 1.0/1.5 may only need to correct once or twice and the 2.0 maybe once. But something appears to be happening from this based on those that have heard it. So while we can't comprehend from that small change...guess it's significant in some way. My dealer get's his 1.5 back upgraded to 2.0 in a week or so, so I am itching to hear it. I am sure he'll bring it over to my system and swap my arm board/arm/cartridge in for a proper demo...I'm look forward to this !
 

dan31

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Jul 22, 2010
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I'm guessing the change in motor design has more to do with the update to 2.0. Perhaps the clamp update contributes to the perceived increase in playback as well. Adjusting clamp force or materials changes the sound. I am interested in the 2.0 but it is beyond my reach.
 
Last edited:

Tango

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your right in that 1.5 is a lower torque design

i not sure the 2.0 is more torque?

i have high torque DD such as sp 10 and Sony Psx9 ( which is also very quiet)

i owned a thorens 124/schoppers for a long time and under the appeal.....

Dear Sir,

I am interested in a dd tt. Comparing your Monaco with Sp 10, which one do you prefer? What are the sonic differences?

Kind regards,
Tango
 

bonzo75

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Have any of you heard the Kodo beat? One TT freak told me that this with air tangent arm produced a fantastic sound
 

Mike Lavigne

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Have any of you heard the Kodo beat? One TT freak told me that this with air tangent arm produced a fantastic sound

I owned the first one built, 6 years ago. previous to that I'd owned 3 other Dobbins plinth'd tt's; the Technics SP-10 mk2, SP-10 mk3, and Garrard 301.

excellent direct drive turntable, and Steve Dobbins knows his stuff. likely it's been refined a bit since I owned mine. it's one I've recommended many times.

BTW; I also had an early Grand Prix Monaco tt in room for a year. I preferred the Kodo Beat to that particular Grand Prix Monaco.....but the newer Grand Prix's I've heard recently are a different breed.
 

bonzo75

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I owned the first one built, 6 years ago. previous to that I'd owned 3 other Dobbins plinth'd tt's; the Technics SP-10 mk2, SP-10 mk3, and Garrard 301.

excellent direct drive turntable, and Steve Dobbins knows his stuff. likely it's been refined a bit since I owned mine. it's one I've recommended many times.

BTW; I also had an early Grand Prix Monaco tt in room for a year. I preferred the Kodo Beat to that particular Grand Prix Monaco.....but the newer Grand Prix's I've heard recently are a different breed.

Yes I remember you telling me about the Dobbins technics, did not know you owned the kodo. Was it much better than the technics?

Btw tango the best analog I heard was Mike's with his top Durand arm and GFS, of which the arm+ cart performance can be individually separated from the performance of the lower arm + Anna, showing what the TT can do as the performance of the arm and cart is upped. So that might be your DD option. At the same time, the TT seems to do absolutely nothing but provide an uncoloured platform
 

bonzo75

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The UK distributor of Kodo did have a Durand Talea II on it once, but he does not carry the Kodo anymore.
 

spiritofmusic

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Ked, yes I wanted to hear the Kodo Beat, but it appeared at Lotus, and went from £25k to £35k, and then disappeared from sale in UK.
One that got away.
Bill was in awe of it.
For me, it's all about torque alongside speed stability, and I think the Beat was unique in being so powerful, up there w the 301s and SP10s of old.
For me and you in the "real" world of affordability, the PTP Solid may be the real deal re speed stability, high torque and manageable financial outlay.
 

Mike Lavigne

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Yes I remember you telling me about the Dobbins technics, did not know you owned the kodo. Was it much better than the technics?

Btw tango the best analog I heard was Mike's with his top Durand arm and GFS, of which the arm+ cart performance can be individually separated from the performance of the lower arm + Anna, showing what the TT can do as the performance of the arm and cart is upped. So that might be your DD option. At the same time, the TT seems to do absolutely nothing but provide an uncoloured platform

Ked, yes I wanted to hear the Kodo Beat, but it appeared at Lotus, and went from £25k to £35k, and then disappeared from sale in UK.
One that got away.
Bill was in awe of it.
For me, it's all about torque alongside speed stability, and I think the Beat was unique in being so powerful, up there w the 301s and SP10s of old.
For me and you in the "real" world of affordability, the PTP Solid may be the real deal re speed stability, high torque and manageable financial outlay.

Steve's stated agenda building the Kodo 'The Beat' was a quieter Technics SP-10 mK3. he loved the sense of power from the Mk3, but the Mk3's noise floor (motor connected to platter) was not outstanding. and finding Mk3's was also a challenge.

I think he succeeded for the most part. it was degrees better than the Technics SP-10 mk3 with the Dobbins plinth I owned.
 

spiritofmusic

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Mike, yr NVS is another tt that is just non existent in the UK, along w other gems like the Sakia 2 Ref.
So, we have no idea why you decided on it, having no experience of it.
I've heard excellent mods of 301s and SP10s and totally "get" the benefits of DD and idler over belt.
Can I ask what the NVS did/does "better" that you felt compelled to move on from the Dobbins Garrards and Kodo?
I ask because like Ked I'm putting serious consideration re a modded Lenco L75 idler, the PTP Solid 12 which represents a fascinating assault on high end analog at a frankly bargain basement entry point, much more affordable than the Lenco, Garrard and Technics restored by Artisan Fidelity.
 

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