Is there anything wrong with a simple approach to Digital/Computer Audio?

Mdp632 · Jun 29, 2017

Hello All,

With all the posts and various discussions around servers, streamers and USB variables.

Is there anything wrong with just starting out using a modern Macbook Pro running Roon or Audrivana with a decent USB cable going straight high quality DAC? For example, an EMM Labs DAC2X or similar product.

Is this a good starting point to get my feet wet so to say in digital audio? This way I limit my boxes and cables upfront.

This editorial from SoundStage Ultra got me thinking of a similar approach. His setup is very simple in terms of components but, of extreme quality. He is using Soulution Electronics with a Macbook Pro running Roon via a USB connection feeding the DAC. No Aurrender , servers, or USB third party devices/ re generators found.

http://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/features-menu/opinion-menu/653-twbas-is-back-not-really

RogerD · Jun 29, 2017

Mdp632 said:
Hello All,

With all the posts and various discussions around servers, streamers and USB variables.

Is there anything wrong with just starting out using a modern Macbook Pro running Roon or Audrivana with a decent USB cable going straight high quality DAC? For example, an EMM Labs DAC2X or similar product.

Is this a good starting point to get my feet wet so to say in digital audio? This way I limit my boxes and cables upfront.

This editorial from SoundStage Ultra got me thinking of a similar approach. His setup is very simple in terms of components but, of extreme quality. He is using Soulution Electronics with a Macbook Pro running Roon via a USB connection feeding the DAC. No Aurrender , servers, or USB third party devices/ re generators found.

http://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/features-menu/opinion-menu/653-twbas-is-back-not-really

Thanks for posting. Good article and I have always been a less is more believer. WBF is kinda biased as more money equals more better sound...although there are several exceptions. I posted this the other day...not much response...good luck.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-mac-mini-II-for-a-server&p=458169#post458169

Mike Lavigne · Jun 29, 2017

Mdp632 said:
Hello All,

With all the posts and various discussions around servers, streamers and USB variables.

Is there anything wrong with just starting out using a modern Macbook Pro running Roon or Audrivana with a decent USB cable going straight high quality DAC? For example, an EMM Labs DAC2X or similar product.

Is this a good starting point to get my feet wet so to say in digital audio? This way I limit my boxes and cables upfront.

This editorial from SoundStage Ultra got me thinking of a similar approach. His setup is very simple in terms of components but, of extreme quality. He is using Soulution Electronics with a Macbook Pro running Roon via a USB connection feeding the DAC. No Aurrender , servers, or USB third party devices/ re generators found.

http://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/features-menu/opinion-menu/653-twbas-is-back-not-really

Mr. Fritz's digital listening culture comments speak more to 'life-style-usability-musical exploration' choices and his admitted lack of desire for his digital to approach the musical satisfaction of analog....or at least any sort of Absolute Sound.

in other words, he is not seriously pursuing ultimate digital performance. which is no problem but then his feedback has little value for people with a different set of priorities.

and I'm not in any way judging his approach as negative. it's just different than mine.

bonzo75 · Jun 29, 2017

Even my noisy macair bested an Oppo he mentions in the article. You can hear differences and better/worse even in servers at lower prices for sure. Such articles do not help anyone, it is ok to recommend low cost but has to be investigated, compared, differences verified with across the cost band. Anyway I could never relate to any of his choices.

Mike Lavigne · Jun 29, 2017

RogerD said:
Thanks for posting. Good article and I have always been a less is more believer. WBF is kinda biased as more money equals more better sound...although there are several exceptions. I posted this the other day...not much response...good luck.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-mac-mini-II-for-a-server&p=458169#post458169

no, no, no, no.

better sound = better sound.

but first and foremost it has to be a priority to find better sound. not everyone cares, or cares in every situation.

and certainly I don't care that much in some situations either. but I don't project that perspective about sound here.

the sound of Tao · Jun 29, 2017

Is a Macbook Pro a good starting point for computer audio? Yes. I've been optimising mac for computer audio and you can get great results but you definitely hit a limit.

Using Audirvana and optimised the OS to run on the minimum, I've added WA IC chips to all the internals including RAM and SSD (the WA IC chips are really good at reducing noise and make it sound considerably more organic, visceral and ultimately simply more engaging and musical) and have it sitting in a relatively shielded environment on battery power and on Stillpoint Ultra 5s with an Entreq Vibeater for some mass loading.

I've compared it in my system to an Aurender and also recently used a Aqua la Diva transport as well for comparison both running on Stillpoints Ultra 5s using Shunyata Anacondas and Pythons into Shunyata Cyclops conditioners and using Wireworld Platinum Eclipse signal cables and Entreq wraps on connectors. How good is a Mac ultimately. Just as stock... I'd ultimately go a dedicated server for sure. Also the different players you use are in many ways as different as different carts so a lot of what you are hearing are the filters applied. HQ Player sounds very different to Audirvana, or Pure Music and Amarra and the different releases of each vary the balance and signature by quite a degree. A simple solution like a Macbook Pro but also optimised with all the above gets some ways closer a more bespoke computer audio setup than a stock Macbook Pro but this involves a bit of cost in ancillaries and effort. Probably just running off battery and well shielded with resonance control it is stronger in this configuration in terms of low noise, is overall fairly linear and musically can still be quite good.

However after looking for a replacement computer audio approach for the last year I just recently tried a SOTM SMS-200 running NAA in Roon and on the basis of that really great experience have just this week ordered the just released SOTM SMS 200 Ultra with the much better clock and also have linear PSU to run it off and will use via Roon and HQplayer. Going this more complex route will be a more challenging path perhaps than just going with an Aurender (which comparatively is a seemingly more trouble free path to computer audio) but even the standard SOTM SMS 200 sounded so very engaging, noiseless and wonderful... usually when comparing different servers and transports I have tended to hear different strengths and differing constraints (I haven't heard the SGM which seems to be all strengths) but we put the SOTM SMS 200 in and it pretty much had me at hello. I should have the new and much anticipated and apparently considerably better performing SMS 200 Ultra with a linear PSU setup running in a week or so and hopefully will have a better idea of how this sounds and how much of a step up again this SOTM player with linear PSU is over just the base model SMS 200.

As to why Jeff Fritz would run just a Mac Air in that system... not sure, definitely I'd have thought there would be better alternatives given the investment in his setup. Interesting that he asks the question. Maybe a change is due and that will be the follow up article.

microstrip · Jun 29, 2017

Mdp632 said:
Hello All,

With all the posts and various discussions around servers, streamers and USB variables.

Is there anything wrong with just starting out using a modern Macbook Pro running Roon or Audrivana with a decent USB cable going straight high quality DAC? For example, an EMM Labs DAC2X or similar product.

Is this a good starting point to get my feet wet so to say in digital audio? This way I limit my boxes and cables upfront.

This editorial from SoundStage Ultra got me thinking of a similar approach. His setup is very simple in terms of components but, of extreme quality. He is using Soulution Electronics with a Macbook Pro running Roon via a USB connection feeding the DAC. No Aurrender , servers, or USB third party devices/ re generators found.

http://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/features-menu/opinion-menu/653-twbas-is-back-not-really

In this hobby one man meat is another man poison. IMHO you should look at other people perspective about stereo sound reproduction and the high-end and analyze their options. Google keywords such as "Macbook Pro" in the whatsbestforum.com domain - we had several threads on this subject.

the sound of Tao · Jun 29, 2017

A few other thoughts on going MacBook Pro... I'm about to buy the last model in that lineup that has USB B. I haven't seen any of the better USB cables go USB C yet and the idea of having to run with a USB adaptor into a top flight USB cable is a definite deal breaker.

Also the current OSX Sierra continues the trend towards being less compatible to some USB drivers apparently and I believe that there is also an issue with going direct with audirvana 3 plus into Sierra that requires a bit of a tricky tech workaround.

The unsustainable rate that Mac update their OS and just how vulnerable this can leave you with hardware and software is also a consideration for me getting to a non Apple based audio solution, as much as I love using macs and will probably always have them for everything else except as the primary music source.

Al M. · Jun 29, 2017

microstrip said:
In this hobby one man meat is another man poison.

Very true!

morricab · Jun 30, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
Mr. Fritz's digital listening culture comments speak more to 'life-style-usability-musical exploration' choices and his admitted lack of desire for his digital to approach the musical satisfaction of analog....or at least any sort of Absolute Sound.

in other words, he is not seriously pursuing ultimate digital performance. which is no problem but then his feedback has little value for people with a different set of priorities.

and I'm not in any way judging his approach as negative. it's just different than mine.

So, Mr. Fritz owning a $35K DAC from one of the modern day "über" companies is not pursuing ultimate digital performance?? Why because it is not MSB with a SGM server (which BTW. IS a glorified PC)?

morricab · Jun 30, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
no, no, no, no.

better sound = better sound.

but first and foremost it has to be a priority to find better sound. not everyone cares, or cares in every situation.

and certainly I don't care that much in some situations either. but I don't project that perspective about sound here.

I would say that Jeff in his own way has been on a mission for a long time. His tastes don't run so different from yours. Have you tried the Soulution 560 DAC? Maybe you could have saved money and got better sound??

morricab · Jun 30, 2017

the sound of Tao said:
Is a Macbook Pro a good starting point for computer audio? Yes. I've been optimising mac for computer audio and you can get great results but you definitely hit a limit.

Using Audirvana and optimised the OS to run on the minimum, I've added WA IC chips to all the internals including RAM and SSD (the WA IC chips are really good at reducing noise and make it sound considerably more organic, visceral and ultimately simply more engaging and musical) and have it sitting in a relatively shielded environment on battery power and on Stillpoint Ultra 5s with an Entreq Vibeater for some mass loading.

I've compared it in my system to an Aurender and also recently used a Aqua la Diva transport as well for comparison both running on Stillpoints Ultra 5s using Shunyata Anacondas and Pythons into Shunyata Cyclops conditioners and using Wireworld Platinum Eclipse signal cables and Entreq wraps on connectors. How good is a Mac ultimately. Just as stock... I'd ultimately go a dedicated server for sure. Also the different players you use are in many ways as different as different carts so a lot of what you are hearing are the filters applied. HQ Player sounds very different to Audirvana, or Pure Music and Amarra and the different releases of each vary the balance and signature by quite a degree. A simple solution like a Macbook Pro but also optimised with all the above gets some ways closer a more bespoke computer audio setup than a stock Macbook Pro but this involves a bit of cost in ancillaries and effort. Probably just running off battery and well shielded with resonance control it is stronger in this configuration in terms of low noise, is overall fairly linear and musically can still be quite good.

However after looking for a replacement computer audio approach for the last year I just recently tried a SOTM SMS-200 running NAA in Roon and on the basis of that really great experience have just this week ordered the just released SOTM SMS 200 Ultra with the much better clock and also have linear PSU to run it off and will use via Roon and HQplayer. Going this more complex route will be a more challenging path perhaps than just going with an Aurender (which comparatively is a seemingly more trouble free path to computer audio) but even the standard SOTM SMS 200 sounded so very engaging, noiseless and wonderful... usually when comparing different servers and transports I have tended to hear different strengths and differing constraints (I haven't heard the SGM which seems to be all strengths) but we put the SOTM SMS 200 in and it pretty much had me at hello. I should have the new and much anticipated and apparently considerably better performing SMS 200 Ultra with a linear PSU setup running in a week or so and hopefully will have a better idea of how this sounds and how much of a step up again this SOTM player with linear PSU is over just the base model SMS 200.

As to why Jeff Fritz would run just a Mac Air in that system... not sure, definitely I'd have thought there would be better alternatives given the investment in his setup. Interesting that he asks the question. Maybe a change is due and that will be the follow up article.

All interesting points. Jeff stated that he felt the Soulution had sufficiently good jitter rejection that he felt it was unnecessary to try to feed it from a lower jitter source. Whether he tried other things and heard no difference or not was not stated in the article I think (going from memory as I don't have the article open anymore).

Mike Lavigne · Jun 30, 2017

morricab said:
So, Mr. Fritz owning a $35K DAC from one of the modern day "über" companies is not pursuing ultimate digital performance?? Why because it is not MSB with a SGM server (which BTW. IS a glorified PC)?

you are correct, and I was mistaken. I hate that white type over black page, and did not scan quite closely enough.

when I read that article I read 'Oppo' and 'Macbook' and missed on the Solution 560 as his dac. while those choices for streaming data sources are limiting, they are only limiting in degrees which is debatable and I've not personally investigated it.

I've not been particularly impressed with systems I've heard with Solution digital, but I have no reason to believe they are not up there competing on the top rung. the 760 even likely a little better than the 560.

at one point I pursued briefly a used 746+ digital player, but backed off since it was limited to input of 192-24 so you could not input dxd or dsd of any kind.

and Brad, I appreciate that you like to push my buttons, with the 'glorified PC' comment, or always knocking darTZeel. at least you are consistent.

morricab · Jun 30, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
you are correct, and I was mistaken. I hate that white type over black page, and did not scan quite closely enough.

when I read that article I read 'Oppo' and 'Macbook' and missed on the Solution 560 as his dac. while those choices for streaming data sources are limiting, they are only limiting in degrees which is debatable and I've not personally investigated it.

I've not been particularly impressed with systems I've heard with Solution digital, I have no reason not to believe they are not up there competing on the top rung. the 760 even likely a little better than the 560.

at one point I pursued briefly a used 746+ digital player, but backed off since it was limited to input of 192-24 so you could not input dxd or dsd of any kind.

and Brad, I appreciate that you like to push my buttons, with the 'glorified PC' comment, or always knocking darTZeel. at least you are consistent.

Don't get me wrong, I have not heard a Soulution/Magico system yet that I could remotely live with...I don't like the sound made from this gear but based on the pursuit of sound it is an expensive and well regarded player.

Rodney Gold · Jun 30, 2017

Mdp632 said:
Hello All,

Is there anything wrong with just starting out using a modern Macbook Pro running Roon or Audrivana with a decent USB cable going straight high quality DAC? For example, an EMM Labs DAC2X or similar product.

Is this a good starting point to get my feet wet so to say in digital audio? This way I limit my boxes and cables upfront.

Excellent way to start.. keep it simple .. silent pc/mac laptop and tidal/roon

microstrip · Jun 30, 2017

morricab said:
So, Mr. Fritz owning a $35K DAC from one of the modern day "über" companies is not pursuing ultimate digital performance?? Why because it is not MSB with a SGM server (which BTW. IS a glorified PC)?

As far as we can read, he is not pursuing ultimate digital performance. Just read his review of the Solution 560. http://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/equipment-menu/639-soulution-560-digital-to-analog-converter.

IMHO ownership of digital expensive equipment does not mean someone is pursuing ultimate digital performance ...

microstrip · Jun 30, 2017

morricab said:
I would say that Jeff in his own way has been on a mission for a long time. His tastes don't run so different from yours. Have you tried the Soulution 560 DAC? Maybe you could have saved money and got better sound??

Have you followed Jeff evolution since he tried the Devialet's?

bonzo75 · Jun 30, 2017

microstrip said:
Have you followed Jeff evolution since he tried the Devialet's?

What changed with the D?

morricab · Jun 30, 2017

microstrip said:
As far as we can read, he is not pursuing ultimate digital performance. Just read his review of the Solution 560. http://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/equipment-menu/639-soulution-560-digital-to-analog-converter.

IMHO ownership of digital expensive equipment does not mean someone is pursuing ultimate digital performance ...

IMO anyone willing and justifying the expenditure of $35k on a DAC, which he rightly said that no DAC SHOULD cost that much based on parts, labor etc., is pursuing ultimate digital performance. Why else would anyone spend that much when very good sub $10K alternatives exist? For bragging rights? AND it is entirely possible that there are cheaper ones that are better...I would never go to that level without finding out first about all the serious cheaper contenders. If owenership of expensive digital equipment doesn't mean pursuit of ultimate performance then WTF does it mean? Seriously? Because, like it or not, there is an unwritten belief that you spend more to get more and you can't tell me that most on this forum don't believe this deep down...their expenditures on this hobby are testimony against any claims to the contrary. Now, maybe the fraction for some as a function of their net worth is miniscule and they just buy what they are told is the best...because its the most expensive...they are not serious audiophiles then. Jeff Fritz, who is claiming to have spent a large portion of his discretionary cash on this hobby must be serious about it...or crazy.

morricab · Jun 30, 2017

microstrip said:
Have you followed Jeff evolution since he tried the Devialet's?

Only that he is now a Soulution man now. He also was into Gryphon for a while but I don't know if that was before or after Devialet. All I can say is that a friend brought a Devialet over recently and it didn't hold a candle to my Ayon (owners admission as well). It did do a lot better on horns than we anticipated though...it was listenable.

I have heard the "big" Devialet monos on Piega speakers...it was a rather shiny processed sound...not my thing at all.

Is there anything wrong with a simple approach to Digital/Computer Audio?

Well-Known Member

VIP/Donor

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member

Member Sponsor

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member

Well-Known Member

VIP/Donor

Well-Known Member

VIP/Donor

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member

Well-Known Member

Member

VIP/Donor

VIP/Donor

Member Sponsor

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads