With improving audio technologies, Fair to blame Bad Sound on "Bad Recordings" or have Bad Systems?

Al M. · Jul 2, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
certainly taste can be an influence. if you have to use low power tubes to get the color you crave then that can be a reason to have another system......or something like that.

My low power tube amps don't color. I have had a Spectral preamp/amp combo in my system, and the tonal balance was virtually the same.

recently I wrote about how I sit in the extreme near-field in my large room. people had a hard time getting their heads around it; sitting so close to -4- 7 foot tall 750 pound towers. but this is exactly the sort of approach it took to achieve scale and intimacy......at the end of a very long road.

how can you sit so close?

it's where I found the extreme performance for both viewpoints, at the same time.

it was the last piece of the puzzle.

That sounds more credible than different approaches. I also sit quite close to my speakers. It's hard for me to imagine getting true intimacy from a system where you have to sit rather far away. But with many, probably most, large speakers the drivers don't even blend unless you sit a distance considerably farther than what your speakers allow you to do.

and interestingly and logically, scale cost me lots and lots of money; there is no easy way for this. intimacy was almost pure time and effort and zero dollar cost.

Yes, scale costs money, beginning with a suitable room. I do think scale, which also requires spatial depth, is quite good in my system, perhaps even better than that of many systems with relatively large speakers -- and visitors regularly are surprised -- but it certainly isn't where it ideally should be.

Mike Lavigne · Jul 2, 2017

Al M. said:
My low power tube amps don't color. I have had a Spectral preamp/amp combo in my system, and the tonal balance was virtually the same.

I should not have used the word 'color', as I meant unique presentation. and I was not referring to your system in any case, but simply what a 'system #2' might bring uniquely that justifies it.

I did not mean to infer any problem.

Al M. · Jul 2, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
I should not have used the word 'color', as I meant unique presentation. and I was not referring to your system in any case, but simply what a 'system #2' might bring uniquely that justifies it.

I did not mean to infer any problem.

Don't worry, Mike, I didn't take it personally, and I very well know that there are a lot of tube amps that do color. I just wanted to clarify when it comes to my system.

I bought my (by now heavily modified) tube amps more than 25 years ago for dynamics, at a time when SS amps still could not express proper micro-dynamics -- at least the ones that I heard. In the meantime, SS technology has matured, and there are modern-day examples of truly great SS amps that are capable of great musical expression.

microstrip · Jul 2, 2017

Al M. said:
That makes sense. I have much more scale now than I used to, and when people visit they routinely comment on the 'big sound', but it's not really what it should be -- to be honest, so far I have never heard any system that can reprduce orchestral music 'on scale'.

It may be possible, depending on where you sit in the concert hall. First 3 or 4 rows, forget it. The image is just so hugely wide that you'd need a super large room with an array of several speakers, not just two. A bit further back, perhaps. Mid-hall -- no problem. The image there actually can become really small, when you close your eyes for a more accurate sonic assessment; unlike the image, the power though does not become 'small'.
(...)

Stereo reproduction is an illusion, each of us recreates it in its own way. I have listened to systems that could reproduce orchestral music 'on scale' - as you say not row A-F, but I never sit there, so I have no problem with that! And you are correct, getting the power correct is the tricky part in getting scale.

IMHO closing the eyes to compare with your system is not a meaningful exercise for me. In real life I listen to music with open eyes and use all the information available to appreciate and enjoy it. Fortunately the recording engineers use many tricks to compensate for the lack of the visual in the sound reproduction. I really like this quote of S. Linwitz "What you hear is not the air pressure variation in itself but what has drawn your attention in the streams of superimposed air pressure variations at your eardrums". IMHO this is the essence of the high-end sound.

A room can have a image much wider than its dimension using just two speakers - nearfield listening helps a lot. But getting the "power" correct in near field listening is not an easy job.

microstrip · Jul 2, 2017

Al M. said:
My low power tube amps don't color. I have had a Spectral preamp/amp combo in my system, and the tonal balance was virtually the same.

Perhaps in the subjective perception of it. Technically your tube system can not have the same balance than a Spectral. Damping factor, distortion and frequency response are very different. All electronics color sound - but in different ways.

RogerD · Jul 2, 2017

Mike is right you need lots of headroom (power),because you need to hear and feel the range of dynamics and majesty of the orchestra. You also need a incredibly low noise floor so that the illusion seems real. The illusion will mimic the reality...but only if many things become synergistic. If there is magic in the recording large or small the system will convey that magic. Unfortunately in today's audio world it is harder to achieve because of costs,but hard work and experience will mitigate that problem. My room is 14x20 and that is probably a minimum.

microstrip · Jul 2, 2017

RogerD said:
Mike is right you need lots of headroom (power),(...)

The tricky point is that you do not need headroom in a technical point - even in loud peaks most systems will not use more than 10W. But even playing at low levels, high power amplifiers seem to play much more powerfully than low power ones ...

RogerD · Jul 2, 2017

microstrip said:
The tricky point is that you do not need headroom in a technical point - even in loud peaks most systems will not use more than 10W. But even playing at low levels, high power amplifiers seem to play much more powerfully than low power ones ...

Clean power....there is no substitute for horsepower.

DaveC · Jul 2, 2017

I don't believe it's possible to get the best "intimate" sound with a system that is capable of great scale. At least, I've never heard a big, complicated system come close to a great full range driver and SET amp on intimate, small scale music. Some examples are top end Feastrex, AER and even Omega single drivers. For a lot of small music that's all you need and imo a larger system just gets in the way a huge majority of the time.

Some augmented single driver type systems like the Lotus Grenada (and the speaker I'm working on) are able to scale up to some degree and for me, that kind of system represents the best compromise for what I listen to. I also just don't have the space or money to put together a similar quality system capable of great scale, so there's that aspect... quality over quantity. I'd much rather have a super high quality system that can't do scale as well than a big system that's not so great at anything. An attempt at both is not going to be easy or inexpensive.

RogerD · Jul 2, 2017

Another point I'll make as the noise floor moves lower and lower the music moves closer. Also as the music moves closer,the overall perspective changes that still encapsulates all the information in the recording. It is a amazing phenomena,and that's how you can achieve intimacy in large scale.

Al M. · Jul 2, 2017

microstrip said:
Perhaps in the subjective perception of it. Technically your tube system can not have the same balance than a Spectral. Damping factor, distortion and frequency response are very different. All electronics color sound - but in different ways.

Very different? That's certainly not what I heard. You're right, it's the subjective perception of it.

Al M. · Jul 2, 2017

DaveC said:
I'd much rather have a super high quality system that can't do scale as well than a big system that's not so great at anything.

I very much agree. Unfortunately, I have heard a lot of the latter.

An attempt at both is not going to be easy or inexpensive.

Indeed.

NorthStar · Jul 2, 2017

Well, if Mike did say:
"I think the hardest conflict to resolve is scale and intimacy. extremely top notch examples of both of those in one system is the real challenge,"

He sure seems to know what he's talking about. And overall the other posters here are agreeing.
He also mentioned near-field listening from his full range system. That is very interesting because large scale and small scale of intimate and emotional listening experience I believe is proportional to the music listener's position. ...Also, the right volume level for each music recording. And, like Roger is saying so often, a black background denuded of any strenuous noise.

The music recording itself of say a larger scale symphony orchestra; the recording techniques along with the performance...musicians togetherness with the maestro conductor, the quality mics well positioned on stage and off stage, will dictate the overall quality sound of the room and system in a well set up listening environment.

Blame the recording or the system for bad sound? Neither, not with today high quality music recordings and audio gear. Perhaps blame the room or the setup or the listener's positioning or the improper volume level?
______

I'm listening to this ? right now as I'm typing:

RogerD · Jul 2, 2017

NorthStar said:
Well, if Mike did say:
"I think the hardest conflict to resolve is scale and intimacy. extremely top notch examples of both of those in one system is the real challenge,"

He sure seems to know what he's talking about. And overall the other posters here are agreeing.
He also mentioned near-field listening from his full range system. That is very interesting because large scale and small scale of intimate and emotional listening experience I believe is proportional to the music listener's position. ...Also, the right volume level for each music recording. And, like Roger is saying so often, a black background denuded of any strenuous noise.

The music recording itself of say a larger scale symphony orchestra; the recording techniques along with the performance...musicians togetherness with the maestro conductor, the quality mics well positioned on stage and off stage, will dictate the overall quality sound of the room and system in a well set up listening environment.

Blame the recording or the system for bad sound? Neither, not with today high quality music recordings and audio gear. Perhaps blame the room or the setup or the listener's positioning or the improper volume level?
______

I'm listening to this ? right now as I'm typing:

What a beautiful recording I should buy it soon. Bob it's not so much a "black" background as it is the noise floor is low enough that it seems like your at the microphone and almost everything the mic recovers you hear. Now there are variables on the microphone side.but the trick is to lower the noise floor enough so you can hear every detail and ambiance recovered.

NorthStar · Jul 2, 2017

It's a fine group of musicians: http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/tafelmusik-emc/

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tafelmusik_Baroque_Orchestra

And I agree with you regarding noise. That reminds me of a music band: Art of Noise (I have few albums of them):

Just click on the above picture ?

Al M. · Jul 2, 2017

RogerD said:
Another point I'll make as the noise floor moves lower and lower the music moves closer. Also as the music moves closer,the overall perspective changes that still encapsulates all the information in the recording. It is a amazing phenomena,and that's how you can achieve intimacy in large scale.

My experience is somewhat different from yours. When my amps still ran on their internal power supplies, the sound of my system was in many cases much more intimate, on average the most on orchestral material. When I switched to external power supplies which gave a much lower noise floor, there was much more low-level spatial information coming through. As a consequence images acquired not just lots of spatial layering and depth, but in many cases also became more recessed overall. In other words, they became much less intimate.

Now, a main reason for overall recession of images to an unnatural degree were problems with somewhat echoey room acoustics, which exaggerated the spatial information from the recording into something artificial -- these problems had not been apparent before when the spatial information was suppressed due to higher noise floor. It took me a long time to fix my room acoustics, but finally, after basically 2 years of experimenting, I am satisfied. I have lots of spatial depth, but no loss of intimacy where I should have it. Yet of course some instruments, which are now in the background as they should be, still sound less intimate than before, when the overall image was more flattened out towards the speaker plane.

However, I do agree that 3-D palpability has a chance to greatly increase with lower noise floor, and that such palpability often gives the impression of immediacy. I experience such an effect in my system as well. Also, separation of instruments becomes better with lower noise floor, which creates intimacy on its own since you can listen more 'into' the music.

So yes, I now have the best of both worlds from a lower noise floor, greater spatial expansion of imaging and more intimacy of imaging when warranted.

RogerD · Jul 2, 2017

Al M. said:
My experience is somewhat different from yours. When my amps still ran on their internal power supplies, the sound of my system was in many cases much more intimate, on average the most on orchestral material. When I switched to external power supplies which gave a much lower noise floor, there was much more low-level spatial information coming through. As a consequence images acquired not just lots of spatial layering and depth, but in many cases also became more recessed overall. In other words, they became much less intimate.

Now, a main reason for overall recession of images to an unnatural degree were problems with somewhat echoey room acoustics, which exaggerated the spatial information from the recording into something artificial -- these problems had not been apparent before when the spatial information was suppressed due to higher noise floor. It took me a long time to fix my room acoustics, but finally, after basically 2 years of experimenting, I am satisfied. I have lots of spatial depth, but no loss of intimacy where I should have it. Yet of course some instruments, which are now in the background as they should be, still sound less intimate than before, when the overall image was more flattened out towards the speaker plane.

However, I do agree that 3-D palpability has a chance to greatly increase with lower noise floor, and that such palpability often gives the impression of immediacy. I experience such an effect in my system as well. Also, separation of instruments becomes better with lower noise floor, which creates intimacy on its own since you can listen more 'into' the music.

So yes, I now have the best of both worlds from a lower noise floor, greater spatial expansion of imaging and more intimacy of imaging when warranted.

Al,

My system has always imaged well no matter what room or amplifiers I have used. I think every system is different because no system is exactly the same. Saying that in my system a stair stepping down of the noise floor has increased separation with greater spatial expansion and greater clarity. With all those present the depth and 3D elements have remained constant,but the music wholly has moved closer. With this level of closeness comes the intimacy which in my case has been very revealing of the recorded information. So in essence nothing changes except you're better able to hear the performance. Now playing a Keith Jarrett concert many might not like that perspective,but for me I do immensely .

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With improving audio technologies, Fair to blame Bad Sound on "Bad Recordings" or have Bad Systems?

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