You win some, you lose some, this audiophile's (and others?) dilemma

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Or more accurately, "you win some, BIG TIME, you lose some, KIND OF"
First, this is not a thread highlighting a deep dilemma or frustration that I have, which I hear so many in the high end have, never truly happy w their sound
And it's not a negative comparison to those like Rodney w his new Giya G1 Spirits, and Mike L w his new MSB Select II, who never seem unhappy w their sound, and Mike L esp driven to always hear gear on the cutting edge
Preamble over
I've always been v happy, with major caveats, with my current setup based on Zu xoverless/full range/true high eff spkrs mated to full blooded, powerful NAT Audio SETs, in my previous apartment
It's undoubtedly a characterful sound, and what it lacked in transparency and imaging in my previous room, made up for in spades re tonal density, presence and sheer involvement
But certainly not the last word in refined "see thru-ness"
Now I'm in a new room with the same gear, radically improved acoustics (absolutely no exaggeration, number one upgrade by far bar none), uber quiet power, and massive strides being made in dealing with floor-borne issues utilising passive isolation platforms, and the system is just unveiling further what it's great at, more of the full blooded tonal density that so few pricey systems achieve IMHO, but a new found propensity for proper imaging and staging, microdynamic nuance and proper bass extension
All WIN WIN WIN
The yang to this ying (or should that be ying to this yang?) is the extra unveiling of sound quality is to some extent "revealing" my Zus
Unlike more SOTA spkrs like Wilson or Rockport, they cannot disappear totally
So music is much more transparent and deep front to back, but a certain "woodiness" or additional warmth is present that means a subtle but unavoidable trace of the speaker is left as an aural "thumbprint" in the room
Now, this is actually not unpleasant at all (hence this thread not meant as a plea for help as a disgruntled audiophile), it's a very benign colouration, but certainly if I was looking for one final transformation to complete the "magic spell" it would be for this sonic signature of the Zus being in the room to be eliminated
So I maintain a 95/5 mind split here, 95% totally immersed in the room based improvements that I could only have dreamed of, 5% somewhat self aware of easy to get on with shortcomings
Interestingly Sean Casey of Zu is aware of such things and he's been perfecting carbon fibre/birch composite monocoque cabinets and carbon fibre impregnation of drivers, plus v high sensitivity sub drivers, to try and leap the gap to Rockport, Magico and Wilson style minimisation of cabinet and driver colouration, and early reports are that he's succeeding a great deal
These factors are more in my head because my room is now so neutral and revealing I'm really aware of this ultimate lack of transparency, and I was wowed by a recent stellar Apogees trial that was class leading re transparency and zero cabinet colouration (planars obviously having no cabinet)
In my mind I have to decide if this really is a facet to get obsessed about
If it is I go for radical Apogee approach or new Zus that have massive tech and materials thrown at solving the issue
And it encapsulates what's so great and awful about this hobby, in that as a group we spend more and more cash, obsessing about smaller and smaller things, to the point where it's equal part nirvana of more musical message being delivered, and equal part going round in circles
 

PeterA

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Marc, I think you should consider yourself lucky. You have identified a very specific area of weakness in your system. That makes it much easier to think about how to improve it. No system is perfect and audio can be experienced as a long journey of constant investigation and improvement. Tastes also change over time. MikeL and Al M. may be very satisfied right now with the sound of their respective systems, but they know there are still improvements to be made.

Just recently you were talking about a turntable change. That seems to have subsided. Now you are into experimenting with isolation. The never-ending nature of the hobby is what is fun and challenging for many of us. There are many audiophiles dissatisfied with their systems and on a continuous search for new components. Some call it the Merry-go-Round. That is fine too, but probably more frustrating than what you are going through right now, and certainly more expensive.

Then there is Bonzo who is traveling all over the place, having a great time meeting people and researching his future system. I don't think he yet has a system that he can listen to at the end of a long day. He does have his frequent live concerts though and his approach and willingness to share what he has learned is great for the rest of us.

There are many approaches to this hobby. I think it is wonderful that your system has reached a point where you can so clearly identify something that bothers you and you seem to know how to go about improving it. I think your are in a good spot. Congratulations on the new room and its acoustics.
 

Jeffy

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Apr 27, 2014
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I don't want to bust your bubble, but my Rockport speakers totally disappear. I hear no colorations as you describe as my cabinet is inert and my driver skins are hand made.
 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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Or more accurately, "you win some, BIG TIME, you lose some, KIND OF"
First, this is not a thread highlighting a deep dilemma or frustration that I have, which I hear so many in the high end have, never truly happy w their sound
And it's not a negative comparison to those like Rodney w his new Giya G1 Spirits, and Mike L w his new MSB Select II, who never seem unhappy w their sound, and Mike L esp driven to always hear gear on the cutting edge
Preamble over
I've always been v happy, with major caveats, with my current setup based on Zu xoverless/full range/true high eff spkrs mated to full blooded, powerful NAT Audio SETs, in my previous apartment
It's undoubtedly a characterful sound, and what it lacked in transparency and imaging in my previous room, made up for in spades re tonal density, presence and sheer involvement
But certainly not the last word in refined "see thru-ness"
Now I'm in a new room with the same gear, radically improved acoustics (absolutely no exaggeration, number one upgrade by far bar none), uber quiet power, and massive strides being made in dealing with floor-borne issues utilising passive isolation platforms, and the system is just unveiling further what it's great at, more of the full blooded tonal density that so few pricey systems achieve IMHO, but a new found propensity for proper imaging and staging, microdynamic nuance and proper bass extension
All WIN WIN WIN
The yang to this ying (or should that be ying to this yang?) is the extra unveiling of sound quality is to some extent "revealing" my Zus
Unlike more SOTA spkrs like Wilson or Rockport, they cannot disappear totally
So music is much more transparent and deep front to back, but a certain "woodiness" or additional warmth is present that means a subtle but unavoidable trace of the speaker is left as an aural "thumbprint" in the room
Now, this is actually not unpleasant at all (hence this thread not meant as a plea for help as a disgruntled audiophile), it's a very benign colouration, but certainly if I was looking for one final transformation to complete the "magic spell" it would be for this sonic signature of the Zus being in the room to be eliminated
So I maintain a 95/5 mind split here, 95% totally immersed in the room based improvements that I could only have dreamed of, 5% somewhat self aware of easy to get on with shortcomings
Interestingly Sean Casey of Zu is aware of such things and he's been perfecting carbon fibre/birch composite monocoque cabinets and carbon fibre impregnation of drivers, plus v high sensitivity sub drivers, to try and leap the gap to Rockport, Magico and Wilson style minimisation of cabinet and driver colouration, and early reports are that he's succeeding a great deal
These factors are more in my head because my room is now so neutral and revealing I'm really aware of this ultimate lack of transparency, and I was wowed by a recent stellar Apogees trial that was class leading re transparency and zero cabinet colouration (planars obviously having no cabinet)
In my mind I have to decide if this really is a facet to get obsessed about
If it is I go for radical Apogee approach or new Zus that have massive tech and materials thrown at solving the issue
And it encapsulates what's so great and awful about this hobby, in that as a group we spend more and more cash, obsessing about smaller and smaller things, to the point where it's equal part nirvana of more musical message being delivered, and equal part going round in circles

I am going to take a stab at something here: I think you have stayed with the Zu speakers BECAUSE you rather like their warmish coloration and now that it has been lessened in impact from the room/acoustic treatment you might find you are unable in effect to live without it and will find a lot of other systems that are arguably more neutral a bit bland. Maybe I am wrong...
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Peter, thanks, and the purpose of my thread is really a philisophical one
I could swap the "presence" of my Zu cabinets for the "invisibility" of Apogee non cabinet dipoles or Rockport heroic build, but I'd lose what I love about my Zus that is hard to replicate elsewhere
Jeffy, you may have misread me
I'm fully aware Rockports disappear, I've said as so
My issue is that they're not the right choice for me re budget, my room, suitability with SETs and my general admiration but not affection for the sound
My thread is really aimed at the heart of this hobby ie should one carry on obsessing and spending big even as most boxes get ticked and maybe only one remains
 

Rodney Gold

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Jan 29, 2014
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At some stage you have to settle for a house sound you like and you seem reasonably happy with the zu's
My take is this.. use tools to get them to sound the way you want..real tools and not stuff like isolation which might or might not give you tiny improvements
I would play around with your room treatments some more.. maybe add a few more elements .. a fleet of tube traps
I would also use either dirac or a digital parametric eq which will do wonderous things in minimizing colourations and cleaning up bass and compensating in both the time and freq domain for better imaging
You can tune and panelbeat the system to your likes ... compare on the fly ..endless hours of tweakery with measurable and audible differences.
Dont worry about :mangling: analog thru the system , the changes wrought by DSP are a magnitude bigger than an a/d/a conversion.

Both are cheap compared to a $5000 isolation table (just as a FYI..I make passive isolation tables for scientific clients)
Dirac is $500-899
And you will get a LOT of extra treatment for $5k (tho you have a huge room , so DO need vast quantities of treatment , a 2'x4' panel wont do much)

Otherwise spring for a set of spirits :)
 

RogerD

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The yang to this ying (or should that be ying to this yang?) is the extra unveiling of sound quality is to some extent "revealing" my Zus
Unlike more SOTA spkrs like Wilson or Rockport, they cannot disappear totally
So music is much more transparent and deep front to back, but a certain "woodiness" or additional warmth is present that means a subtle but unavoidable trace of the speaker is left as an aural "thumbprint" in the room
Now, this is actually not unpleasant at all (hence this thread not meant as a plea for help as a disgruntled audiophile), it's a very benign colouration, but certainly if I was looking for one final transformation to complete the "magic spell" it would be for this sonic signature of the Zus being in the room to be eliminated
So I maintain a 95/5 mind split here, 95% totally immersed in the room based improvements that I could only have dreamed of, 5% somewhat self aware of easy to get on with shortcomings
Interestingly Sean Casey of Zu is aware of such things and he's been perfecting carbon fibre/birch composite monocoque cabinets and carbon fibre impregnation of drivers, plus v high sensitivity sub drivers, to try and leap the gap to Rockport, Magico and Wilson style minimisation of cabinet and driver colouration, and early reports are that he's succeeding a great deal
These factors are more in my head because my room is now so neutral and revealing I'm really aware of this ultimate lack of transparency, and I was wowed by a recent stellar Apogees trial that was class leading re transparency and zero cabinet colouration (planars obviously having no cabinet)
In my mind I have to decide if this really is a facet to get obsessed about
If it is I go for radical Apogee approach or new Zus that have massive tech and materials thrown at solving the issue
And it encapsulates what's so great and awful about this hobby, in that as a group we spend more and more cash, obsessing about smaller and smaller things, to the point where it's equal part nirvana of more musical message being delivered, and equal part going round in circles

The act of disappearing is dependent on the high resolution of the system on a whole,not just the speaker. Cables,grounding and room placement has a lot to do with it. personally I think the speakers in a system are the most important item. If you can't live with the Zu speakers start searching....you only live once.
 

spiritofmusic

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Brad, the story of me and Zus
Saw Sjraen's stellar review of the Def2s on 6Moons in 2008, and weeks later had a pair making the most of $/£ exchange rate
They really "spoke" to me within moments, just combining a minor horn like dynamic presence with this revelatory (to me anyhow) tone density
To me this was really attractive compared to the more uber resolution but sub par re excitement speakers I was auditioning otherwise ie Pro AC, B&W, ATC, Kharma, Linn etc
And they then allowed me to get into the world of SETs which I've never left
I'm skeptical it was their colourations that enticed me, more their all round traits of juiciness, natural warmth and vibrancy
I've heard other full range speakers famed for similar things and found them neither immersive nor uncoloured, and they don't float my boat at all ie Audio Note, Rethm etc
But my time with the Zus hasn't been without incident LOL, and I'm fully aware there are more stellar uncoloured alternatives that tick more of the audio checklist
So imagine my sheer delight when on resetting up in my new, wholly transformed, listening space with to die for acoustics and power, the Zus with NATs truly bloom, maintaining their core DNA of tonal density with unheard of before transparency, imaging and microdynamics, a whole new speaker to be honest
And as I strip colourations out of the system, a benign one remains, just what appears to be traces of the speakers cabinets' colouration, that occasionally darkens or cloys, on some music choices
I was fearing a LOT worse prior to setting up anew!
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Rodney, I get the AD/DA thing but I'm truly reluctant re my vinyl
To be honest, I really don't think my room is much of an issue
Bass extension seems both naturally warm, agile and extended with my fave test tracks, certainly much more linear than in London
I'm certain I'm "hearing" the speaker, certainly aware of them in the room
It's almost as if stripping away room resonances, noise on the grid, and floor interactions, is leaving the last "thumbprint" in the presentation, that of the speakers inherently
Now I know this thumbprint is eliminated or non existent on gear like Apogees, Magico, Rockport, maybe even Giya (Sean has looked at Giyas I believe, and composite birch/carbon fibre molded monocoque shells are the result for the new Zus)
I have to work out if spending serious Moolah on the new Zus to genuinely combat this final veil in my system presentation is a sign of the madness of the hobby having finally taken over LOL
Or whether it will genuinely lead to a truly new level of enjoyment
 

PeterA

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Dec 6, 2011
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Marc,

What is your intention with this thread? Are you expressing your thoughts about your Zu speakers and soliciting opinions about your system and speakers, or is this more general in nature as the title seems to suggest? System refinement leading to new understandings about specific system issues is kind of interesting. Your history with Zu has been discussed many times on your system thread and your various other posts. Perhaps if you let us know the purpose of the thread it will help us focus the discussion.
 

Rodney Gold

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Jan 29, 2014
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Well you cant really change the inherent sound of the speakers only modify how it hits your ears.
I think your next quest should be for new speakers
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Peter, respect to you for probing my intentions
In summary, I had terrible criticisms of my sound in previous room, and of course this made me reflect on my system and component choices
The new room has confirmed my love correctly placed, and in fact I love my core sound even more
But as my thread title, you do lose some while you win some, and stripping of veils has to some extent revealed a limiting factor in the Zu presentation
My thread is really more philisophical than real world
Ie the hobby lends itself to maybe an unnecessary amount of angst and self doubt
So, does the highlighting of a limiting factor in ultimate system transparency ie speakers cabinets colouration within an overall highly immersive and transformational sound really matter at all?
The minutiae of what we are aware of as audiophiles on our journey certainly can get in the way of simple enjoyment and acceptance of overall excellent sound
Can we be too analytical and hard to ultimately please?
 

spiritofmusic

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Rodney, big speakers I've listened to incl Vivid Giya G1s at Munich 2016 at the SGM server roll out, in a v well set up situation
Rockport Antares and Hyperions, Kharma Exquisites, Wilson Maxx2 and Alexia, big Cessaro Liszts, restored Apogee Duettas
Only the Duettas truly made me sit up and notice, with all due respect to the others, none do the tonal density thing Zu/SETs are hypnotic at
Whereas I cannot criticise eg the Giyas G1s I heard last year for detail retrieval, scale, imaging, bass extension, lack of cabinet signature etc
Swings and roundabouts
Certainly the Apogees are REALLY calling to me
But I'm also experienced enough as an audiophile to know such a wholesale change in speaker and its inherent 180 degrees opposite demands in amps compared to Zus will present frustrating compromises as well
 

bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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Can we be too analytical and hard to ultimately please?

That is the hobby.

Otherwise, if you just set up a system and listen without changing, you are just another guy with a certain budget. Could be Bose or B&O or higher all the way to a Goldmund Apologue. Even Oprah can call a dealer and get something installed, how would then we be different?
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Ked, true
For me, it's whether this revealing of shortcomings is an issue to obsess about, or whether it's benign
For instance, I've adjusted to the pros and cons of all my gear, have maxxed out quality with careful system tweaks, have had the revelational step up with the room, and may well apply the same philosophy to the speakers
Then again, knowing that Sean the Zu designer is deliberately addressing the same shortcomings in the new flagship with initial unofficial buzz highly positive may solve my reservations at a stroke (of pen on cheque!)
 

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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IME, the best way to optimize your system is to make sure you have optimized your room and the power delivery system to it first. That is not as 'attractive' as swapping gear and constantly trying to change the sound in this manner. The next new box/speaker and the allure of the friendly dealer is far more glamorous than room acoustic treatments and power delivery gear. I question how many of us have actually scrapped our room and built a new room or relocated to a different room to solve the problem. Oddly, in this day and age, the cost to do this might be actually less than the latest purchase of a new DAC or TT or speaker or ?? Far less glamorous than the new box with lots of bling and a very high price tag...far less IMHO. IMHO, if something isn't floating your boat in the sound of your system, have you actually maximized the sound of your room...really!
 

spiritofmusic

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Davey, I believe I have
In the UK there isn't the same same tradition as there is in the US re Rives style room planning
I pretty much wrangled an existing roof space, threw a ton of cash, Rockwool and Kingspan at it, and came away w such an improvement over my cold and pinched London apartment, the difference is embarrassing
The first thing Blue58 commented on up here in visiting before any music started playing was just how calm and quiet things were, with speech truly intelligible and relaxed
This then reflects in music reproduction
Similarly I've managed the best power I could with seperate 18mm SWA feed from rest of chapel, 8kVA balanced power and Oyaides dedicated lines and Furutech duplexes
Quiet is too small a word to describe the massive improvements in acoustics and power wrought
I'm actually confident these aspects are so superior to anything I've been used to previously, they're both maxxing what I've always loved about my sound ie tone and presence, giving me more audiophile qualities ie depth and imaging, while at the same time highlighting more than ever certain negatives like cabinets/drivers colouration
I guess this thread could be renamed "do you throw out the baby with the bath water?"
Ie is this more starkly revealed negative, only on some discs, and more euphonic/benign than jarring, sufficient reason to go on a radical path to eliminate it ie Magicio type zero audibility box speakers, or Apogee non box
Or actually not get too self concious
Or go to next level of Zu, where the designer is confident he's addressed colourations without losing any of the hard to live without (IMHO) Zu juiciness
I guess what I'm really asking is whether there are guys here who've got 95% of what they want, but still upended their system/spent big to wrangle that last 5% without sacrificing that 95%?
And just how did they do it?
 

microstrip

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IME, the best way to optimize your system is to make sure you have optimized your room and the power delivery system to it first. That is not as 'attractive' as swapping gear and constantly trying to change the sound in this manner. The next new box/speaker and the allure of the friendly dealer is far more glamorous than room acoustic treatments and power delivery gear. I question how many of us have actually scrapped our room and built a new room or relocated to a different room to solve the problem. Oddly, in this day and age, the cost to do this might be actually less than the latest purchase of a new DAC or TT or speaker or ?? Far less glamorous than the new box with lots of bling and a very high price tag...far less IMHO. IMHO, if something isn't floating your boat in the sound of your system, have you actually maximized the sound of your room...really!

How can you know that you optimized room and power delivery? IMHO there is no absolute scale to rate or even measure them, and both will depend on the system you want to assemble. And each expert has a different advice on these matters, it is not better than about equipment.

I think that the first think someone must ask himself is how high does he rank the hobby in his life in the present moment and in the future. And then act accordingly. It is not only a question of money or bling, it goes much more deep than that.

Just thinking loud...
 

PeterA

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Dec 6, 2011
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Ked, true
For me, it's whether this revealing of shortcomings is an issue to obsess about, or whether it's benign
For instance, I've adjusted to the pros and cons of all my gear, have maxxed out quality with careful system tweaks, have had the revelational step up with the room, and may well apply the same philosophy to the speakers
Then again, knowing that Sean the Zu designer is deliberately addressing the same shortcomings in the new flagship with initial unofficial buzz highly positive may solve my reservations at a stroke (of pen on cheque!)

Marc, this post clarifies the intent of the tread to me. It is about you and your satisfaction with your system in general and perhaps with your speakers in particular. We can't help you with that subject. Either you are satisfied and settled, or you are not and then you will either make a change or you will not. All of that is up to you.

Only you can determine if the shortcomings of your room/system are an issue that you will obsess about or whether it's benign (to you).
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
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IME, the best way to optimize your system is to make sure you have optimized your room and the power delivery system to it first. That is not as 'attractive' as swapping gear and constantly trying to change the sound in this manner. The next new box/speaker and the allure of the friendly dealer is far more glamorous than room acoustic treatments and power delivery gear. I question how many of us have actually scrapped our room and built a new room or relocated to a different room to solve the problem. Oddly, in this day and age, the cost to do this might be actually less than the latest purchase of a new DAC or TT or speaker or ?? Far less glamorous than the new box with lots of bling and a very high price tag...far less IMHO. IMHO, if something isn't floating your boat in the sound of your system, have you actually maximized the sound of your room...really!

Completely agree. The room and system set up may not be as glamorous as a shiny new piece of gear, but the improvement far outweighs it IMO. My system components have not changed in five years. I hired Jim Smith to set up my listening seat, speaker position and adjust room treatment, and everything since then has been some tweak. Yet, the system continues to improve. Not very sexy, but so satisfying.
 

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