Vivid Giya G1 vs G1 Spirits

caesar · Aug 18, 2017

heihei said:
I had both the Spirits and G1s in residence yesterday, sadly now both gone. We've had the G1s for around a week and had fallen for them in a big way, with the demo pair of Berning Quadrature Z's we also have providing a stunning balance of drive and speed, but with depth of bass and delicate treble. As such, it's been musically engaging across genres and even across recording quality.

Initially the Spirits didn't wow us in the way we expected, and in fact switching back to the G1s was in many ways preferable. The guys from Vivid wondered if the amps were not providing enough "juice" for the larger drivers on the bass units, despite the higher nominal sensitivity of the Spirits. To test this theory, they put in place a set of old B&W amps onto the Spirits (which offer > 1kW of power), and sure enough the bass slam was significantly better, although the upper frequencies lacked the openness, delicacy, speed, and natural timbre of the Bernings.
We had enough sets of cable to bi-amp the system, putting the B&W amp on the bass and the Bernings handling everything else. Whilst we weren't able to fine-tune gain, phase etc, this set-up was stunning - tight, fast, phenomenal bass (both speed, precision, as well as outright depth), but maintaining the musical engagement we had with the G1s.
This has left us plenty of food for thought. Having just moved away from a fully active system, I've been looking for something reasonably simple in terms of set-up, but this has got me thinking!!

Wow!

Anything new here?

caesar · Aug 18, 2017

tedtag said:
I've got the Spirits up and running with a pair of CAT JL7's for now. Statements will be arriving soon but I'm not giving up much with the JL7's. These are fantastic tube amps (200w triode!) and work beautifully with the Spirits. So what about the Spirits? I simply could not be more pleased. First they are absolutely gorgeous. Mine are piano black and to me, just stunning to look at. The proportions have changed slightly from the G1 and all for the better. They just look right but that's only one attribute that reflects the care and passion that obviously was involved in the design of these speakers.

They are currently 92" apart and 112" from my ears and aimed right at my nose. I came to that positioning by listening only. Next week Jim Smith is coming over to help voice the system but ironically the location turned out to be exactly at the 83% "rule" in his book "Get Better Sound". There is an area of open space behind the speakers that's relatively large at 14.5' x 8.5', so they have plenty of room to really open up.

What I can say about the sound is it's so natural and easy to listen to that on compelling music I just forget I'm listening to a system at all. The speakers literally disappear and the tonality is wonderful. But the detail is there and so are the dynamics. An unexpected drum thwack makes me jump up in my seat, but on the softer passages there is so much subtle information that it makes me lean into the music to not miss anything. Images are just the right size and although you can almost see the artists and instruments on the soundstage, the portrayal is more real than anything I have heard. Its like a live performance. Although the images are separated in space, there is a continuity to the sound that presents the music as if its all cut from the same cloth. Between the images there is the presence of space where each note develops completely and then blends in with the rest of the sound to make music.

Last night I had some friends (non audiophiles) stop by before we went out for dinner and they all wanted to see and hear this new stereo I'd been talking about. I put on The Beetles "Sergeant Pepper" and played "When I'm 64". One of the wives actually jumped up off the couch and started dancing completely oblivious to the rest of us. Then proclaimed, we've gotta have a dance party in here! Well, I'm not one to dance but the sound was truly engaging. That cut has the plastic imaging of the early experimental days of stereo but even with that, the experience was more natural than I've ever heard. And the tone of the clarinet, the bell, the bass line, all of it was just plain fun to listen to. That one song elevated everyone's mood as we exchanged wow's and cool's and lots of other spontaneous explicatives. To me, that's what this hobby and music is all about; deeply touching our emotions.

All of this is before the set up has been finalized and I've got a long way to go to make it even better; the CAT Statements, fine tuning of placement, spikes and plinths under the speakers and amps, better cables (currently Audience), cable lifts, etc. I've also got a pair of REL G2's sitting behind the Spirits ready to go. Not that these speakers need any more bass! The bass is rock solid, crisp, and clear. But a pair of subs crossed over at say 30 hz might just add another layer of harmonics and sort of relax the sound even more. We'll see, and I'm anxious to hear Jim's opinion. (although as a true professional he is careful with comments about gear!)

With all the terrific choices for speakers in the market, I'm completely comfortable with my decision to go with the Spirits even without hearing them before purchasing. I did travel to Chicago to listen to the G1's and ordered a pair of those on the spot. Shortly after that I was able to upgrade the order to the Spirits when they launched late last year, although I then had to wait another 6 months! The Spirits are even better than the G1's and not by a small margin. Right now I just feel fortunate to have them and can't wait to run off to my listening room and play some more music. (btw, the TechDas 3 is the bomb!!! but that's another story.....)

Ted,
That is an awesome write-up! CAT is the only tube amp I have heard that doesn't embarass itself on the bass on non-horn speakers.

Congrats and Enjoy!

caesar · Aug 18, 2017

tedtag said:
I posted this in the "Best Amps for Vivid G2" thread but then realized it really should go here along with impressions about the Vivid Spirits. Please pardon the redundancy in case you have already seen this in the other thread. Thanks!

"Yesterday Jim Smith (Get Better Sound) came over and spent the day dialing in my system. I've been a huge supporter of him for years and fortunately Jim lives only a little over an hour away. I'd positioned the Spirits to what I thought sounded good, but hadn't done exact measurements and was a little apprehensive about what he would say. After all I had just spent over a year building the room, selecting and buying all the gear, adding room treatments, etc, so there was a ton of time and money invested in the system. He had never heard the Spirits before.

We ended up moving the left speaker about 3" in and the right about 1.75" forward to get everything within about 1/8" or less using laser beams. Toe in crosses right in front of my nose. The Spirits ended up 91" apart and 115" from my ears for a 79% ratio. That was a little closer together than I had them but it tightened the images and pulled them slightly forward. Even with that, there is still tremendous depth and dimension to the soundstage. Sound just fills the whole room. But I was close and felt really good about that! With so many variables, its quite a daunting task to start from scratch to build a system in a dedicated room.

Then using an RT Analyzer, we moved the subs to about 4' behind the speakers and pointing backwards! They are crossed over at 25 hz with volume set at 15. The verdict is still out with the subs but I plan on spending more time today with them on and off to see if they add anything significant. The Spirits produce plenty of bass on their own but we were going for a little more air and space. Since I already had the RELs, why not try?

I'll try to avoid gushing over the outcome, but I could not be more pleased with everything! The Spirits are so fast and detailed that they just draw you in to the music. Plus the tonality is luscious with lots of texture. Dynamics are startling on drum thwacks and loud orchestral pieces. The bass is clear and crisp and the system just dances through complex bass passages pronouncing every note so you can hear all the details but they blend together beautifully. And that was with the CAT JL7's. As mentioned before, I have a pair of Statements on the way and they should be here next week. So I'm expecting even more.

Speaking of the CATs, I cannot imagine better amps to match with the Spirits. The combo is natural sounding but powerful. The triode/tube sound and texture is there, but so is the bass. It's a very musical system that really does not draw attention to itself, and instead just lets the performances come through. Plus it will play really loud or very soft and sounds good at just about any volume setting.

So for now, my wandering eye has settled down and I've finally found the sound I've been looking for. One last thought on the Spirits..... I've always been a planar speaker/tube guy because of the seductive midrange and the natural sound, speed, and detail that's possible if set up well. But there was always something missing especially in the bass. This system seems to have everything I loved about planars plus all the missing pieces."

Congrats!

Your post engenders a ton of questions, but I'll only ask a few:
- I really like Jim Smith's book. And he strikes me as a real mensh when I read his posts on the forum. But as he performs the setup, how do you differenciate between your taste and his taste?
- Who designed your room? What kind of treatments are you using?
- CAT Statements come in yet????????????? Will the setup need to be tweaked again?
- And finally, did you ever have that dance party?

caesar · Aug 18, 2017

Gentlemen,
Another thought: I am kind of astounded that many of the so called "audio journalists" and "audio experts" have not reviewed this speaker, and have ignored Vivid in general.

It is a great alternative to those not thrilled with Magico's and Wilson's sonic signatures. But so many reviewers seem to lack the courage and would rather follow the herd...

heihei · Aug 18, 2017

caesar said:
Wow!

Anything new here?

No not really - I've been on vacation for a couple of weeks so nothing new. Next week I should be trying the new Constellation Taurus with the Spirits to see if that gives similar sonic qualities to the Bernings but with extra SS drive for the bass. It will be interesting to hear.

BTW agree on the lack of reviews for Vivid speakers - I might ask them why they think this is the case.

tedtag · Aug 18, 2017

caesar said:
Congrats!

Your post engenders a ton of questions, but I'll only ask a few:
- I really like Jim Smith's book. And he strikes me as a real mensh when I read his posts on the forum. But as he performs the setup, how do you differenciate between your taste and his taste?
- Who designed your room? What kind of treatments are you using?
- CAT Statements come in yet????????????? Will the setup need to be tweaked again?
- And finally, did you ever have that dance party?

Caesar, I'll reply more tomorrow when I've got some time but per your and heihei's comments about reviews; I talked to Philip O'Hanlon this week and he said that both Stereophile and The Absolute Sound will both be doing reviews of the Spirits very soon.

tedtag · Aug 19, 2017

caesar said:
Congrats!

Your post engenders a ton of questions, but I'll only ask a few:
- I really like Jim Smith's book. And he strikes me as a real mensh when I read his posts on the forum. But as he performs the setup, how do you differenciate between your taste and his taste?
- Who designed your room? What kind of treatments are you using?
- CAT Statements come in yet????????????? Will the setup need to be tweaked again?
- And finally, did you ever have that dance party?

I don't think its so much a matter of taste when it comes to working with Jim, but more of maximizing the potential of a system through careful set up. He has developed a certain methodology that is really well outlined in his book, videos, pod casts, and newsletters. A lot of it is trial and error but also he uses an RT Analyzer continuously while playing specific reference tracks on his own Dac/ cables he is very familiar with. Jim actually plugged in his Dac 24 hours before our voicing session, then kept it plugged in his car on the ride over to make sure it was warmed up. When he got to my house, he quickly handed me the Dac with instructions to run it upstairs to my room and plug it in fast to keep it from cooling down.

He had seen my room before and suggested a certain arrangement where the couch was against the long wall and the speakers were out in a more open, spacious area, with the rack on the right side as you face the speakers. But we weren't sure that positioning would yield good sound until the system was playing, and we were prepared to rearrange everything 90 degrees with the couch on the short wall if necessary.

So there was a "conceptual" Plan A and Plan B before he actually arrived for the voicing session. Fortunately Plan A (long wall) sounded great with no odd reflections, so we began to dial in the exact speaker positions with laser measurements, listening, and using the RT Analyzer. The final placement of the speakers, couch, and toe in was symmetric with a margin of error between 1/16th and 1/8th of an inch. Once we found the sweet spot with placement everything just snapped into focus and it was obvious that this was a great sounding lay out.

Its sort of like focusing a camera lens where there is one location where the images are clear and its found by trial and error through turning the dial on the camera. But instead, we were focusing the sound by adjusting the exact footprint of the speakers relative to the seating position. I guess using the camera example, we could say that everybody's eyes are slightly different so the focus point on the camera is not the same for different individuals. Or with ears and music I suppose..... But in the final placement, it was clear to both of us that we had found the sweet spot because everything snapped into focus and imaging, tonality, dynamics, and presence were all fantastic. Could another configuration in the room sound just as good or better? I doubt it, but I wouldn't really know unless I tried. And I'm so happy with the sound and the room lay out that I'm not going to change a thing.

The Statements arrived this week and I set them up yesterday. It took 4 guys to carry 1 amp at a time up the stairs! I'll have more to say about the sound after the system settles in and I can warm up my TT/cartridge and have a nice long listening session. But initial impressions from a brief listen last night was just more, much more, way more, of everything good compared to the JL7's. Just changing amps in the same general location on the floor would't impact or negate any of the hard work we did with speaker placement or room set up.

We'll be having some guests this weekend who want to hear the system, so I do expect a spontaneous dance party to erupt at some point. I'll discuss the room and its design in another thread, but for now its time to start making a play list for the party!

flez007 · Aug 19, 2017

Giya is one of the few speaker options I would consider if I ever step-out the Avalon boat I am in - liked your room a lot! Enjoy!

tedtag · Aug 19, 2017

View attachment Studio Floor Plan.pdf

Here is a sketch of conceptual Plan A that ended up working great. The yellow TT's in the corners are ASC 16" and 20" Iso Thermal Tube Traps. (http://www.acousticsciences.com/products/isothermal-tubetrap) These are expensive but excellent. The height of my vertical walls was supposed to be 5' but I forgot to include the thickness of a rubber under layment pad, a 3/4" felt carpet pad, and the acoustic wool carpet. So the actual height of the walls turned out to be 4'10"! This was a problem because ASC's Tube Traps come in 3' tall and 2' tall sections so if I used their standard traps it would total 5'. But Jim wanted those traps smack up to the corners so ASC custom made me 22" sections to go on top of their standard 3' sections so they fit.

The second page is my first attempt at drawing a plan for using GIK Acoustic panels on the ceiling sections. (http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-242-acoustic-panel/) I started with the idea of covering the entire ceiling of the whole room and that's what's shown in the sketch. All of the ceiling sections are vaulted so I drew each ceiling section individually. I sent this plan to GIK and then had several long conversations with their Advisors. These folks are terrific to work with and I love their products. They actually advised me to use way fewer panels than are shown in the sketch. The final ceiling panel layout has rows of panels hung along the center beams of each vault, dense panels over the listening seat, less panels over the speakers, and one 2'x4' panel on each side wall for first reflections. I ended up with only 20 panels after starting with 48, based on their advise, for less than $2K. (Note; GIK actually told me to reduce the order by more than half! Integrity lives on....... !!!)

I used GIK's Cloud Mounting System to hang the panels on the sloped ceiling sections but used eye bolts and chain from the Hardware Store to hang the panels along the beams. Due to a spontaneous lack of patience one day, I figured out a system and built supports to hold the panels along the beams while I attached the hardware to each panel. The sloped sections were another matter, and I had to wait to get help from 2 carpenters to attach those. But we did it. All of this was complicated by the fact that I had installed 2 layers of sheet rock with felt in between per the ASC Iso-Wall System and I didn't want to compromise the effectiveness of separating the sheetrock layers. I ended up using 3"x1/8" toggle bolts drilled through both layers and amazingly with 20 panels and 4 brackets each we never hit a beam. http://www.acousticsciences.com/products/iso-wall-system.

Sorry to drift so far from the topic but its probably important to understand how much effort went into conditioning the room and designing the layout to get the most from those Spirits. (Plus, Caesar asked about it!) Not to mention the elevated concrete floor, the electric line that runs straight to the pole on its own meter with JPS wiring, Furutech outlets, and a 3 prong copper grounding system. Bottom line; it sounds wonderful!

DaveyF · Aug 19, 2017

Ted, would love to see a photo of your room. I'm sure the Spirits and the Statements are a killer combo! BTW, are you using Ken's preamp as well? If so, you may want to try tube rolling in the future. In my CAT is was VERY worthwhile...

tedtag · Aug 19, 2017

DaveyF said:
Ted, would love to see a photo of your room. I'm sure the Spirits and the Statements are a killer combo! BTW, are you using Ken's preamp as well? If so, you may want to try tube rolling in the future. In my CAT is was VERY worthwhile...

Thanks Davey! I've had trouble posting pictures for some reason, even pics from my cell phone. Too much data? Anyway I'll figure it out and post some soon. I finally have everything in place, cables dressed, amp stands, etc.

Yes about the preamp. Its the CAT Legend with all Ken's Black Path components and the incredible phono section. Right now is the first time I've cranked up some vinyl with the Statements and a loom of top of the line Stealth cables in the system, all meticulously dressed.

Blood Sweat and Tears second album side 1 is spinning delightfully on the TechDas. "Sometimes in Winter forgotten memories remember you behind the trees with leaves that cry. Now your gone girl and lampposts call your name. Its a cold room and the walls ask where you've gone....." I can feel the grief.

I may pm you about tube rolling a little later.

But Holy Crap is all I can say! This system is beyond description and way more than I ever thought possible, thanks to all the folks who put their hearts and souls into hand building each component and then Jim helping with the set up. And I want to give a shout out to George at Kyomi Audio for all his help with system matching. Also, I learned so much from this forum and all of you with your experience and good advise.

I am very fortunate and grateful to have this. Almost died from cancer last year but with great Doctors and modern medicine it looks like I get some more time and I'm going to spend as much of it as I can playing records. There were many days where I thought I'd never even get to hear this system, but I plowed ahead building it anyway with encouragement from my wife and some friends. And miraculously I beat the odds and am OK. Gratitude is such a positive thing I try to live everyday with hope and appreciation.

DaveyF · Aug 19, 2017

Ted, that's an inspiring story! Glad to hear that you are on the mend.
You own the exact gear that I would aspire to if I was going to change out my system. IMO, there are no better electronics than Ken's gear...plain and simple! ( and I have heard the contenders). The Legend preamp with Black path caps is at the very forefront of preamps, again IMHO.
The new Spirits are just over the top in their abilities...CAT and Spirits---as I said, Killer! Do you know what are the stock tubes that Ken is now using in your preamp? He's not a big believer in NOS tubes, but I sure am, LOL.

caesar · Aug 19, 2017

Ted,
THANK YOU for such as a comprehensive write-up. It's sharing and learning from experiences like yours is what makes this hobby even better...Great to see everything come together for you!

Please keep us posted on the Statements! And looks like some lucky guy will probably get to purchase your JL7s.

caesar · Aug 19, 2017

tedtag said:
...
I am very fortunate and grateful to have this. Almost died from cancer last year but with great Doctors and modern medicine it looks like I get some more time and I'm going to spend as much of it as I can playing records. There were many days where I thought I'd never even get to hear this system, but I plowed ahead building it anyway with encouragement from my wife and some friends. And miraculously I beat the odds and am OK. Gratitude is such a positive thing I try to live everyday with hope and appreciation.

Wow! What a great spirit you have, Ted! Enjoy in great health!!!!

caesar · Aug 19, 2017

DaveyF said:
Ted, would love to see a photo of your room. I'm sure the Spirits and the Statements are a killer combo! BTW, are you using Ken's preamp as well? If so, you may want to try tube rolling in the future. In my CAT is was VERY worthwhile...

The word on the street is that Telefunken Smooth plates will give you richer tonality and improve dynamics.

caesar · Aug 19, 2017

tedtag said:
Caesar, I'll reply more tomorrow when I've got some time but per your and heihei's comments about reviews; I talked to Philip O'Hanlon this week and he said that both Stereophile and The Absolute Sound will both be doing reviews of the Spirits very soon.

I certainly hope that Vivid gets more publicity, as it is truly one of the great speakers in the world today. And although Stereophile has covered Vivid well, the top TAS guys like "Sterile" Jon Valin and "Worthless to the audio fans" Robert Harley have been championing that lean, clean, and frequently analytical sound - a la Magico q5 and q7, and Berkeley Reference DAC. Although that gear may sound "real" in Sterile Jon's and Worthless Robert's imagination, the free market has spoken and magico q series has died - despite the seemingly unrelenting marketing efforts of Sterile Jon and Worthless Robert.

Yet my fear is that because Vivid may not match the taste of those top TAS guys, they will somehow try to harm it, calling it colored ("as you like it" in their terminology) as they have done with Wilson Audio. Very curious to find out who will actually be reviewing it...

Rodney Gold · Aug 19, 2017

Ted , I get where you are coming from .. my upgrade from the G1's to the spirits was also a "survival" present to myself (quad bypass last august)
The speakers are worthy of your extensive room treatment , they DEMAND the best room to eke out the nth degree of their goodness..I rebuilt my room for the G1's and am still busy tweaking it for the spirits.
As you say , they reveal everything downstream from them. If I had a mastering studio..I would use a pair.
My only "complaint" is the bass , the speakers go too low and reproduce subsonic artefacts in the recording..you can often see the woofers trying to climb out the cabinets and feel the room pressurising .. I have a 24db/octave subsonic filter applied , starting at 25 hz downwards and this cures the issue.

DaveyF · Aug 20, 2017

caesar said:
The word on the street is that Telefunken Smooth plates will give you richer tonality and improve dynamics.

They are nice. However, I slightly prefer the GE large plate 1963 military 12ax7's that I utilize.

tedtag · Aug 20, 2017

Thanks everybody for all of your support and encouragement! Rodney, glad you got through your health challenges and wish you and the rest of us smooth sailing from here on out. Also, thanks Davey and Caesar for your advise about tube rolling. I'll give it a trying see how it sounds. In the owner's manual Ken recommends not doing that but then sort of winks and says if you just can't stop yourself, have at it. Very little to lose and possibly some nice gains.

Good point about the bass Rodney and I could see how the bass in the Spirits could become overpowering. Nice idea with the filter. I've got a pair of REL G2 subs hooked up and crossed over at about 26 hz. It sounds great and might be doing the same thing as your filter???. The bass is clean but extremely powerful and it has taken a while to get used to that. I listened to the "heartbeat" on Dark Side of the Moon yesterday and it was like getting slugged. But I loved it. Hit me again!

I'll keep an attentive ear out for the artifacts you mentioned. I have noticed more noise between tracks at loud volume. Part of it may be that I listen to the system pretty loud and maybe louder than I have with other gear because the sound stays so clear and detailed at any volume setting. Its only day 3 for me with everything set up so I've got a lot more to learn about the system over time.

Jim Smith · Aug 20, 2017

FWIW - This is a slightly edited copy of my post on another message board a few days ago, in answer to some questions about Vivid:

...thought I'd mention that I recently voiced a system that included the new G1 Spirits. Maybe the finest speaker - at any price - that I have encountered at any of the substantial number of listening rooms/systems that I have voiced.

Honestly speaking, I didn't expect it, based on the sound of some of Dickie's earlier (non-Vivid) designs.

Interestingly, the speaker even looks different (better to me) after you have listened to it.

Vivid Giya G1 vs G1 Spirits

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