Rhythm, just rhythm!

microstrip

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When asked what he considered the most important part of music in a short Mezzo interview, Simon Rattle, current conductor of the ?Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra resolutely answered RHYTHM!

Although most people immediately think of rock or jazz when debating rhythm, enjoyable classical music depends a
lot on rhythm. Recordings have different rhythm, and systems should portray it.

It is not easy to find what technical parameter is responsible for reproduction of the rhythm encoded in recordings in equipment - I have found that it is mostly a system matter, equipment that sounds monotonous and
rhythmical flat in some systems and rooms sound deeply rhythmic (able to preserve and display the rhythm of music) in others - it is why everyone will tell that their favorites sound better than anything else... :) I have found that bass peaks easily destroy rhythm - when I introduced bass traps rhythm improved a lot in my system.

In this aspect I am finding that it is easier to assemble systems with tubes that sound more rhythmic than solid state. As the weather is currently very hot, I am mainly playing with solid stage gear for the last two weeks. Great bass, good timbre and definition, but helas, much less rhythm than my usual tube references.

Cables also have some words to say concerning rhythm. Although not as detailed as alternatives, I have found that Transparent OPUS and Reference, or even Shunyata can help a lot in getting a have a very good feeling of rhythm in my system and room.

Do you have general gear preferences when considering rhythm?
 

JackD201

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Mr Rattle says Rhythm, I say Time. I think we are in full agreement. I also agree about SYSTEM variability. If music is Time, Acoustics is Time and Space.
 

Al M.

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When asked what he considered the most important part of music in a short Mezzo interview, Simon Rattle, current conductor of the ?Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra resolutely answered RHYTHM!

Although most people immediately think of rock or jazz when debating rhythm, enjoyable classical music depends a
lot on rhythm. Recordings have different rhythm, and systems should portray it.

Yes, rhythm is all important. It starts at the source. For quite some time digital has been deficient when it comes to rhythmic performance; a quality of reproduction that makes your foot tap seemed to come much more naturally to analog. While this has been discussed more in Europe than in the U.S., there also have been articles about that in Stereophile:

Pace, Rhythm, & Dynamics

One listener’s lament
(both links are recommended reading)

I have had four CD players or playback combos before I purchased the Berkeley DAC, which is my first DAC that really could rock. Of course, the rhythmic surefootedness translates very much into classical music as well. The Yggdrasil DAC may be even better than the Berkeley on rhythm & timing, and it is exhilarating. I just listened (again!) to the Ninth Symphony of Shostakovich, which is an enormously rhythmic piece, and apart from the excellence in sound and dynamics through the Yggdrasil, the rhythm was just captivating. As I have experienced it, your dCS Vivaldi also has excellent rhythm.

After decades, great digital can finally compete with great turntables when it comes to rhythm. (And of course, not all turntables have equally good rhythm either.)

I wouldn't take great rhythm from a source for granted. Rhythm should be kept in mind when auditioning a source. But of course, amps and speakers, and room, are critical as well.

I have found that bass peaks easily destroy rhythm - when I introduced bass traps rhythm improved a lot in my system.

I agree. When I remove the bass traps from my room, rhythm suffers immensely.
 

Al M.

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Mr Rattle says Rhythm, I say Time. I think we are in full agreement.

Before I saw your post, I just added a post mentioning "rhythm & timing"...
 

PeterA

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Interesting topic. I never gave it much thought because I've always seemed to have it with my two SME turntables. Surprisingly, I've read accounts that belt drive turntables can't provide good rhythm and that one must go to idler or direct drive typologies. This is nonsense IMO. I agree with Al that it starts with the source, now that I think about it. I think the system must avoid sounding "slow" with sluggish/bloated bass. Dynamics and clarity are also vital for good rhythm IMO. I system should also sound effortless in order for Pace, Rhythm and Timing to be preserved. This does not necessarily mean efficient speakers and easy loads, just proper speaker/amp matching.

Micro, I also have Transparent cables and I've never noticed issues with rhythm. Finally, just thinking about this now, I think room acoustics are pretty important. When I cleaned up reflections, the sound was less scattered, cleaner, and perhaps rhythm (foot tapping) increased a bit.

EDIT: The overall impression of the system's sound must also be natural. Anything that sounds mechanical or synthetic causes me to feel tense and not relaxed, and this effects my ability to flow with the music. Have you noticed that when the foot starts tapping that one is no longer thinking about the "sound" of the system but rather simply enjoying the music? Of course, the music itself must have rhythm for it to come through on a system.
 
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Tango

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In this aspect I am finding that it is easier to assemble systems with tubes that sound more rhythmic than solid state. As the weather is currently very hot, I am mainly playing with solid stage gear for the last two weeks. Great bass, good timbre and definition, but helas, much less rhythm than my usual tube references.

Cables also have some words to say concerning rhythm. Although not as detailed as alternatives, I have found that Transparent OPUS and Reference, or even Shunyata can help a lot in getting a have a very good feeling of rhythm in my system and room.

Do you have general gear preferences when considering rhythm?

Sawasdee Micro,

Rhythm, tempo, different movement in sound of different instruments on stage, vocal variation and expression. Variation in energy transfered from each instrument. Liveliness of a system. I get these in my system from tube electronics and excellent power cords. I use Ayon SET amp, preamp and phono with Siltech power cords. I dont think I could attribute these to a single component. But I tried top Soulution solid stage phono that Mr. Valin highly praised and a few other phonos including tube Thoress in my system. They were not close to my Ayon phono in term of liveliness. If you play Hellelujah by Melissa Megano, you can easily hear, feel different levels of energy, high, low, expressiveness of her voice with the phono I mentioned.
I tried Goebel power cords too. They were pretty good also in term of dynamic and liveliness.

Kind regards,
Tang
 

Tango

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I have had four CD players or playback combos before I purchased the Berkeley DAC, which is my first DAC that really could rock. Of course, the rhythmic surefootedness translates very much into classical music as well. The Yggdrasil DAC may be even better than the Berkeley on rhythm & timing, and it is exhilarating. I just listened (again!) to the Ninth Symphony of Shostakovich, which is an enormously rhythmic piece, and apart from the excellence in sound and dynamics through the Yggdrasil, the rhythm was just captivating. As I have experienced it, your dCS Vivaldi also has excellent rhythm.

After decades, great digital can finally compete with great turntables when it comes to rhythm. (And of course, not all turntables have equally good rhythm either.) .

Hello Al M.,
I havent been fortunate with digital fronts for rhythm, pace and timing. Possibly because my digital gears and play level was not sophisicated enough. I have Berkeley Alpha Ref and Acqua formula, they dont give me foot tapping listening leisure like my analog fronts. Maybe when my listening habbit changes and digital audio technology mature, I will try more digital.

Kind regards,
Tang
 

Al M.

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Hello Al M.,
I havent been fortunate with digital fronts for rhythm, pace and timing. Possibly because my digital gears and play level was not sophisicated enough. I have Berkeley Alpha Ref and Acqua formula, they dont give me foot tapping listening leisure like my analog fronts. Maybe when my listening habbit changes and digital audio technology mature, I will try more digital.

Kind regards,
Tang

Hello Tang,
Interesting that you report on lack of digital rhythm, pace and timing as well. I don't have extensive experience with the Berkeley Alpha Ref, but my regular Berkeley Alpha is excellent in rhythm & timing, even though the Yggdrasil DAC may be even better. It may also depend on the digital configuration: I don't play from file, but from a CD transport (Simaudio/Moon 260 DT). I have heard that some servers can take the life out of digital.

Al
 

Al M.

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By the way, you may want to take a look at this thread:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?23334-Transport-to-Spin-Red-book-CD-s

From the opening post:

I have been using Auralic Aries for almost two years now, feeding the music files stored in a dedicated NAS to Lampizator GG Balanced. However, last week, I borrowed 47Labs Flatfish transport from a close friend just to test. We selected the same album and played it both.

Here is the result:

47Labs makes an impression of faster speed, rhythm and livelier..We tested several albums, the result is always the same..compared to 47Labs, Aries sounded a bit dull and not so real.
 

Tango

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Hello Tang,
Interesting that you report on lack of digital rhythm, pace and timing as well. I don't have extensive experience with the Berkeley Alpha Ref, but my regular Berkeley Alpha is excellent in rhythm & timing, even though the Yggdrasil DAC may be even better. It may also depend on the digital configuration: I don't play from file, but from a CD transport (Simaudio/Moon 260 DT). I have heard that some servers can take the life out of digital.

Al

Hello Al,

I may have misguided you a bit with my comments. When I used the Berkeley I used it with Aurender N10. Now I have Aqua with JMF cd transport. They have rhythm, pace and timing to a certain degree but not to the level I tap my feet every time I listen to my tt with decent records. Pardon me if I led you to interpret that my digital fronts dont give any rhythm.

Tang
 

Al M.

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Interesting topic. I never gave it much thought because I've always seemed to have it with my two SME turntables. Surprisingly, I've read accounts that belt drive turntables can't provide good rhythm and that one must go to idler or direct drive typologies. This is nonsense IMO.

It is indeed nonsense, Peter. The rhythm of your system is fantastic. I would not say this lightly, since as you know, I am extremely picky about this issue.
 

Al M.

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Hello Al,

I may have misguided you a bit with my comments. When I used the Berkeley I used it with Aurender N10. Now I have Aqua with JMF cd transport. They have rhythm, pace and timing to a certain degree but not to the level I tap my feet every time I listen to my tt with decent records. Pardon me if I led you to interpret that my digital fronts dont give any rhythm.

Tang

Hello Tang,

I had not interpreted what you said as your digital not having any rhythm. But current generation digital at its best should induce foot tapping just as much as great analog. I know mine does, at least to me.

If I understand you correctly, you now have more rhythm with a transport than with the Aurender server. This would not surprise me given other reports as well about transport vs. file (at least some file playback). But it may be that it also depends on the kind of transport.

Al

EDIT: in fact, there are reports that the type of transport matters. It may also depend on the digital connection. I use the AES/EBU interface which is often preferred by manufacturers, and an MIT Proline digital interlink.
 
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Rodney Gold

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Interesting that those with bass control state that removal of their bass traps reduces the sense of rhythm. It suggests it is a function of the room/speaker interface rather than source.
 

Al M.

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Interesting that those with bass control state that removal of their bass traps reduces the sense of rhythm. It suggests it is a function of the room/speaker interface rather than source.

Yes, the bass trap issue is related to the room/speaker interface. But this doesn't take away the importance of the source. It all must play together well.
 

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