Pre and power matching

jasbirnandra

Well-Known Member
Apr 3, 2012
260
22
923
Dear Friends I have a small confusion with matching Pre with Power of different brands I am using the Ypsilon Pre which has an output impedence of 150 ohms trying to match the Pre with monoblocks of Block audio czech republic which were on static display in munich having Input impedence of 20 K ohms balanced and 10 K ohms unbalanced.

Will this be a good match or should I go with the no brainer Ypsilon Aelius AMP
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,376
2,497
1,398
From my limited experience and knowledge, there is matching impedance...and there is matching overall. Rule of thumb for impedance matching is 10x, so at 150 ohms vs 10,000-20,000 ohms you should be fine with this Block Audio amp.

However, in terms of matching overall, there are a number of members here who have found that CJ Pre/Power, Lamm Pre/Power, etc are such remarkable combinations, that "eyes closed", combinations using the same designer are often an easy and fantastic way to go.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
From my limited experience and knowledge, there is matching impedance...and there is matching overall. Rule of thumb for impedance matching is 10x, so at 150 ohms vs 10,000-20,000 ohms you should be fine with this Block Audio amp.

However, in terms of matching overall, there are a number of members here who have found that CJ Pre/Power, Lamm Pre/Power, etc are such remarkable combinations, that "eyes closed", combinations using the same designer are often an easy and fantastic way to go.

Lloyd,

The rule of thumb you refer is meaningless - but as 99% of the times the equipment people use follow it, people love it.
As far as I remember the Ypsilon Pre can be used in active and passive mode, something that makes the answer more delicate.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,376
2,497
1,398
Lloyd,

The rule of thumb you refer is meaningless - but as 99% of the times the equipment people use follow it, people love it.
As far as I remember the Ypsilon Pre can be used in active and passive mode, something that makes the answer more delicate.

Well, and there you go! Funny how information gets passed around and around...and around. thanks for the correction.
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
12,303
1,420
1,820
Manila, Philippines
For me one absolute rule is to pay close attention to the voltage figures. To have your amplifier reach its full potential, the input sensitivity figure for the amp must be close to the preamplifier's Vout. This almost always assures best signal to noise ratio which in turn sounds like less strain/ greater ease. The gravy is wider dynamic range.
 

Speedskater

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2010
941
15
368
Cleveland Ohio
It's the opposite of impedance matching with almost all solid-state components. Any unit with an output impedance well below 500 Ohms will be happy connected to any unit with an input impedance of 10k or higher.
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,374
13,414
2,710
London
For me one absolute rule is to pay close attention to the voltage figures. To have your amplifier reach its full potential, the input sensitivity figure for the amp must be close to the preamplifier's Vout. This almost always assures best signal to noise ratio which in turn sounds like less strain/ greater ease. The gravy is wider dynamic range.

Does anyone know the Vout for AR Ref 40/10, and CJ Gat? Can't find it

For VTL 7.5 MkIII it's

Maximum Output Voltage <1% THD 30V into 10k? or above (10Hz – 200kHz +/-1dB)
10V into 600?

While for Mk1 it's 45v
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
For me one absolute rule is to pay close attention to the voltage figures. To have your amplifier reach its full potential, the input sensitivity figure for the amp must be close to the preamplifier's Vout. This almost always assures best signal to noise ratio which in turn sounds like less strain/ greater ease. The gravy is wider dynamic range.

Jack,

I think you must mix gain here, not just Vout. Thinks can´t be so simple as you are writing!
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
Does anyone know the Vout for AR Ref 40/10, and CJ Gat? Can't find it

For VTL 7.5 MkIII it's

Maximum Output Voltage <1% THD 30V into 10k? or above (10Hz – 200kHz +/-1dB)
10V into 600?

While for Mk1 it's 45v

What are you calling Vout? Measured under what conditions?
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,374
13,414
2,710
London
What are you calling Vout? Measured under what conditions?

Exactly that - what was put as maximum output voltage in the specs. Is that not right?
 

asiufy

Industry Expert/VIP Donor
Jul 8, 2011
3,711
723
1,200
San Diego, CA
almaaudio.com
Here's what the documentation for the REF 10 says:

"Rated Outputs: 2V RMS (1V RMS SE) into 200K ohm balanced load (maximum balanced output capability is 30VRMS at less than 0.5% THD at 1kHz). "

One of the cool things the REF 10 has going for it is adjustable gain, configurably by input. On certain systems, I found out that less gain is actually desirable, and will certainly help with compatibility. I don't recall if the REF 6 has such adjustment, but I'll look...


cheers,
alex
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,374
13,414
2,710
London
Here's what the documentation for the REF 10 says:

"Rated Outputs: 2V RMS (1V RMS SE) into 200K ohm balanced load (maximum balanced output capability is 30VRMS at less than 0.5% THD at 1kHz). "

One of the cool things the REF 10 has going for it is adjustable gain, configurably by input. On certain systems, I found out that less gain is actually desirable, and will certainly help with compatibility. I don't recall if the REF 6 has such adjustment, but I'll look...


cheers,
alex

You mean 6 DB at RCA and 12 balanced?
 

asiufy

Industry Expert/VIP Donor
Jul 8, 2011
3,711
723
1,200
San Diego, CA
almaaudio.com
No, you can actually set "-2dB" gain by INPUT.
For instance, you can choose to run your dCS DAC at 6V and lower the input gain on your REF 10 to -3dB.
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,374
13,414
2,710
London
No, you can actually set "-2dB" gain by INPUT.
For instance, you can choose to run your dCS DAC at 6V and lower the input gain on your REF 10 to -3dB.

Is this possible with Ref 40?
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
Here's what the documentation for the REF 10 says:

"Rated Outputs: 2V RMS (1V RMS SE) into 200K ohm balanced load (maximum balanced output capability is 30VRMS at less than 0.5% THD at 1kHz). "

One of the cool things the REF 10 has going for it is adjustable gain, configurably by input. On certain systems, I found out that less gain is actually desirable, and will certainly help with compatibility. I don't recall if the REF 6 has such adjustment, but I'll look...


cheers,
alex

It is my point - you can´t compare the Vout's -VTL specifiec 1% THD at 10 kohm load , ARC .5% on 200kohm.

For the REF10 the most important specification is the rated output : 2V RMS (1V RMS SE) into 200K ohm balanced load - it will produce a power of 200W in a 8 ohm load with a 26db gain power amplifier.

And as far as I could understand the offset gain of the REF10 only affects the attenuator/display settings, not the gain block of the preamplifier. It is just an display added convenience. But I can be wrong, please check it!
 
Last edited:

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal

Attachments

  • a1.jpg
    a1.jpg
    67.6 KB · Views: 149

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,348
4,934
978
Switzerland
When you consider that most amps have sufficient gain that a single volt of output is enough to drive the amp into clipping, Vout is not a real consideration for nearly all preamps. More important is gain and noise and impedance. If gain is too high, you will often have serious noise issues. If impedance output of the preamp is too high and the amp too low, you may have high frequency roll off and in some cases bass rolloff too. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, I have found that the Robustness and stability of the power supply seems to be of high importance, although on the surface the current drive of a preamp is not so obvious...but my experience says it is crucial.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
When you consider that most amps have sufficient gain that a single volt of output is enough to drive the amp into clipping, Vout is not a real consideration for nearly all preamps. More important is gain and noise and impedance. If gain is too high, you will often have serious noise issues. If impedance output of the preamp is too high and the amp too low, you may have high frequency roll off and in some cases bass rolloff too. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, I have found that the Robustness and stability of the power supply seems to be of high importance, although on the surface the current drive of a preamp is not so obvious...but my experience says it is crucial.

Gain and noise are sometimes related because noise is intrinsic of active devices and once it gets amplified you can not get rid of it, as attenuators are usually placed before the gain stage of the preamplifier.

The robustness and stability of the power supply are not easy to qualify. How should we specify it? Using the weight? Using the regulation? Some manufacturers quote capacitance as if it was nirvana ...

BTW, just remembered that a few modern solid state amplifiers have low gain - around 18-20 dB.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing