Tower in London | Gone in smoke, and with it 58 human lives, maybe more

NorthStar · Jun 17, 2017

Like everyone else you probably have read and see the news about the 20-story building that burned real fast few days ago in London.
I won't include any link. To me it's like living in a third-world country where human lives are disposable.
There is no mystery here, that building wasn't up to it, with bad flammable external panels, without working sprinklers, with just one staircase, with tenants being told to stay put, with firemen not able to reach higher than 12th floor, brief a total human fiasco in a city that is supposed to be living in the year 2017.
Oh, it is 2017, and yet it feels like 1666.

It makes you realize a lot of things, just not in London but everywhere. The values we accord to life, to money, to classes, to education, to ...

Inadequacies; it's the word that requires improvement. It's the story of our humanity.
If you have an important job, like protecting human lives, building safe places, buildings, skyscrapers, if you work in cities full of people living above ground...it seems normal to me to be ready. What we saw here is deficiency on many levels. It is very sad, and the people are not performing their jobs; what they do is getting a paycheck from the higher irresponsible builders of societies...the financial class world leaders.

And it will happen again; we simply cannot change what we haven't learned from the last three billion years. It's a way of speech, in view of the amplitude.

My deepest condolences to all the families and friends and all people from London who lost their precious ones...women, men and children.
If it can happen there it can happen here and everywhere. Those external panels were a huge mistake, if you have read about it.
And to not have sprinklers working on a highrise building...is completely unthinkable.

Modern society? Sadly not. ...Third-world country in dire needs to progress in the right direction. I've read reports from fire experts, from high ranking officials in London, from the fire department, from the people who design, build high structures, etc., and what a mess! To me they all have to bare responsibilities for jobs not properly executed. ...Deficiencies @ a high level; inadequacies in a modern world of the year 2017.

I had to share some of my immediate thoughts from the last few days. We're all in it together no matter what. So feel free too.
It also brought me back to the Oakland fire, where many kids lost their lives. Again, the fire department, the building codes enforcers, the owners, the responsibilities of our society towards the most precious thing in life; our babies, our children, our people, human lives.

DaveyF · Jun 17, 2017

NorthStar said:
Like everyone else you probably have read and see the news about the 20-story building that burned real fast few days ago in London.
I won't include any link. To me it's like living in a third-world country where human lives are disposable.
There is no mystery here, that building wasn't up to it, with bad flammable external panels, without working sprinklers, with just one staircase, with tenants being told to stay put, with firemen not able to reach higher than 12th floor, brief a total human fiasco in a city that is supposed to be living in the year 2017.
Oh, it is 2017, and yet it feels like 1666.

It makes you realize a lot of things, just not in London but everywhere. The values we accord to life, to money, to classes, to education, to ...

Inadequacies; it's the word that requires improvement. It's the story of our humanity.
If you have an important job, like protecting human lives, building safe places, buildings, skyscrapers, if you work in cities full of people living above ground...it seems normal to me to be ready. What we saw here is deficiency on many levels. It is very sad, and the people are not performing their jobs; what they do is getting a paycheck from the higher irresponsible builders of societies...the financial class world leaders.

And it will happen again; we simply cannot change what we haven't learned from the last three billion years. It's a way of speech, in view of the amplitude.

My deepest condolences to all the families and friends and all people from London who lost their precious ones...women, men and children.
If it can happen there it can happen here and everywhere. Those external panels were a huge mistake, if you have read about it.
And to not have sprinklers working on a highrise building...is completely unthinkable.

Modern society? Sadly not. ...Third-world country in dire needs to progress in the right direction. I've read reports from fire experts, from high ranking officials in London, from the fire department, from the people who design, build high structures, etc., and what a mess! To me they all have to bare responsibilities for jobs not properly executed. ...Deficiencies @ a high level; inadequacies in a modern world of the year 2017.

I had to share some of my immediate thoughts from the last few days. We're all in it together no matter what. So feel free too.
It also brought me back to the Oakland fire, where many kids lost their lives. Again, the fire department, the building codes enforcers, the owners, the responsibilities of our society towards the most precious thing in life; our babies, our children, our people, human lives.

Great post Bob.

Unfortunately ( or fortunately), the Brits love their tradition...and that certainly includes making sure that old buildings remain that way. IMO, an old building is ok, so long as it is brought up to current safety and code standards. When you visit London, you will see millions of homes that were built 100+ years ago...millions of them. Now, thats ok in some ways---except for the fact that the vast majority of these dwellings haven't had any upgrades or work done to them ( due to economics, etc) in many many decades; leading me to believe that they are death traps in the waiting.. While the towering inferno may not have been that old, I suspect that the mentality of "preservation" and the economics of same, may ( and most likely did) play a part in this disaster. Inexcusable in so many ways, IMHO.

Joe Whip · Jun 17, 2017

What happened at Grenfell is a disgrace. No working sprinklers, smoke detectors and they clad the building with a flammable product banned in the US and left an empty flue behind it. The fire appears to have started in a faulty fridge on the 4th floor and the building went up in no time. Looking at the outside, it appears to me that that is the case. A callous disgard for human life.

NorthStar · Jun 17, 2017

1974, that highrise building; they said it's relatively young.

"The explosion of a refrigerator in a fourth-floor apartment at Grenfell Tower in London's North Kensington may have ignited the catastrophic fire, reports The Times of India. An eyewitness Safiyah Wallden said a resident was telling people that his fridge had exploded, causing a fire in his apartment. When Wallden first saw the fire around 1.15am, only a small section on the right side of the building was burning. However, the fire spread quickly after that and soon the entire building was on fire.

The theory of the fridge exploding is further backed up by several eyewitnesses describing hearing a distressed resident from Grenfell Tower, Abdul Ramaz, telling neighbours his fridge had caused the blaze at the block of flats, according to ITV.

The Telegraph said that residents did not hear the fire alarm on their floors. There were also no sprinklers in the tightly packed 24-storied highrise that contained 120 flats. The presence of only one stairwell further hindered evacuation."

And to compound all of that, in a non-safe building, the moto is to stay put! What! Get the heck out of there, this place is totally unsafe, the "stay put" policy doesn't apply here.

58 confirmed dead so far, and most likely it's going to rise. This should not have happened. This is criminal negligence, and it's time to acknowledge it and act upon. We don't need a Phd in fire expertise, we all saw it with our own eyes on how fast the flames get to the top, and all inside (without sprinklers).

Imagine; someone down below got a good deal on a second-hand toaster (or fridge, or microwave oven) from Salvation Army, ...and the rest is history for the 600 other tenants.

Preventive driving: It's not just following your own safe driving, it's also watching for the other motorists.
And if the road wasn't maintained safely, then whoever is in charge of maintaining them safely to standard codes is ...
It's the same with living in skyscrapers, highrise apartment buildings. It's the same with buying unsafe cars. I bought a truck once and all the papers that said it passes all the safety tests were falsified between the dealer and the garage auto inspector! I'm sure it's common practice from several private auto dealers. I was ripped off of $40,000 plus all the tumults and time lost and wages lost and heart/mind broken, and others around me affected. Those tenants lost everything because the system failed them. I know exactly how they feel.

Every time an innocent die I die too. Every time someone get mistreated, judged wrongly, got beat up for no better reason than his class in our society I feel the impact too, running deep down @ high speed rate through my blood's vessels.

This London fire is another big reminder. What a deficient society we live in! And I'm not talking just UK here and building codes.
It's everywhere, in our own backyards, in Canada, in America.

infinitely baffled · Jun 18, 2017

DaveyF said:
Great post Bob.

Unfortunately ( or fortunately), the Brits love their tradition...and that certainly includes making sure that old buildings remain that way. IMO, an old building is ok, so long as it is brought up to current safety and code standards. When you visit London, you will see millions of homes that were built 100+ years ago...millions of them. Now, thats ok in some ways---except for the fact that the vast majority of these dwellings haven't had any upgrades or work done to them ( due to economics, etc) in many many decades; leading me to believe that they are death traps in the waiting.. While the towering inferno may not have been that old, I suspect that the mentality of "preservation" and the economics of same, may ( and most likely did) play a part in this disaster. Inexcusable in so many ways, IMHO.

It is heartwarming to read the positive sentiments expressed here regarding this awful event.
But I feel the need to correct some errors...
The concrete brutalist tower blocks built to replace bombed out housing stock are universally unloved and widely used to house low income people. The general consensus is that they should all be demolished, many have been and that will continue. The cladding is an attempt to improve heat efficiency and make the towers less of an eyesore, but has now been demonstrated to increase fire risk, firstly in Paris, then in Australia a couple of years ago and Dubai last new year.
Up until that refurbishment the advice to remain in your flat was correct. Indeed that very same block suffered a fire 15 years ago, but this was contained within the flat where the fire began by the fire doors and then put out by the fire brigade, with no one hurt.

The vast majority of London's housing stock are two or three storey semi detached or terraced houses built of brick. These represent a relatively low fire risk.
Then you have numerous brick mansion blocks up to six stories tall popular with better-off homeowners. They also tend to have a single stairwell, but are easily reached by the ladders on fire engines. Then you have the modern blocks built for the top end of the market to modern standards with sprinklers and alarms.

The British are some of the biggest spenders on home extensions and renovations. Indeed it is often said that our economy is far too dependent on house prices and everybody is playing the game, with individuals adding spare rooms, loft conversions and digging out basements, and housing associations and private landlords gentrifying whole streets and neighbourhoods. The idea that we all live in unreconstructed Victorian slums is not accurate.
As for the vast majority of London's homes being death traps, this is plain wrong

There are some major lessons to be learned here. Our building codes have not been updated in ten years, and in that time this type of cladding has both become more prevalent, and been responsible for fires that should have been contained, spreading up the exterior of clad buildings.

The ruling conservative party have prevented any revisions to the building code, no doubt because at the last count 120 conservative mp's are also private landlords. In sickening scenes that are coming back to haunt them they jeered Labour mps as they tried and failed to amend the codes.
Lastly the conservative Kensington and Chelsea council have blood on their hands for their stonewalling of resident's concerns, including threatening legal action against those who said the renovations created an increased risk of fire. They have also manifestly failed to cope with the disaster, being almost completely absent from the magnificent mobilisation of ordinary people in support of the survivors.
But hey, they have one of the lowest local tax rates in the country and a reported £300million cash surplus so that's what really matters

Finally it has been reported that there was an alternative type of fire resistant cladding available from the same supplier, at an increased cost of £2 per sheet or £4500 per block, that might have prevented this man-made tragedy but was not used on the grounds of cost.
Which is an obscenity

bonzo75 · Jun 18, 2017

DaveyF said:
Great post Bob.

Unfortunately ( or fortunately), the Brits love their tradition...and that certainly includes making sure that old buildings remain that way. IMO, an old building is ok, so long as it is brought up to current safety and code standards. When you visit London, you will see millions of homes that were built 100+ years ago...millions of them. Now, thats ok in some ways---except for the fact that the vast majority of these dwellings haven't had any upgrades or work done to them ( due to economics, etc) in many many decades; leading me to believe that they are death traps in the waiting.. While the towering inferno may not have been that old, I suspect that the mentality of "preservation" and the economics of same, may ( and most likely did) play a part in this disaster. Inexcusable in so many ways, IMHO.

Hi Davey, the old ones are safe. It's the new ones that are the problem. This was relatively new, not am old Victorian or preserved block, and a council built block that used material with specs that under regulations were not allowed.

RogerD · Jun 18, 2017

British MP David Lammy on the Grenfell tower fire. MP Lammy's twitter page https://twitter.com/DavidLammy

DaveyF · Jun 18, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Hi Davey, the old ones are safe. It's the new ones that are the problem. This was relatively new, not am old Victorian or preserved block, and a council built block that used material with specs that under regulations were not allowed.

Perhaps, perhaps not...but the old ones..and I think we can agree on this...they totally dominate the landscape. Plus, they are unlikely to be updated to anything like SOTA fire safety standards--particularly in areas that are lower income! While it is true that the construction being brick may be a benefit, the overall condition and therefore potential for disaster is high ( from vast fires, flooding, etc), IMO. Another example,God help anyone there if there is an earthquake!! ( which BTW can happen..even though it is unlikely) Take the Underground, it strikes me that the potential for a disaster is high!! Victorian construction and its technology just doesn't insure safety, irrespective of "upgrades"...IMHO.

NorthStar · Jun 18, 2017

infinitely baffled said:
It is heartwarming to read the positive sentiments expressed here regarding this awful event.
But I feel the need to correct some errors...
The concrete brutalist tower blocks built to replace bombed out housing stock are universally unloved and widely used to house low income people. The general consensus is that they should all be demolished, many have been and that will continue. The cladding is an attempt to improve heat efficiency and make the towers less of an eyesore, but has now been demonstrated to increase fire risk, firstly in Paris, then in Australia a couple of years ago and Dubai last new year.
Up until that refurbishment the advice to remain in your flat was correct. Indeed that very same block suffered a fire 15 years ago, but this was contained within the flat where the fire began by the fire doors and then put out by the fire brigade, with no one hurt.

The vast majority of London's housing stock are two or three storey semi detached or terraced houses built of brick. These represent a relatively low fire risk.
Then you have numerous brick mansion blocks up to six stories tall popular with better-off homeowners. They also tend to have a single stairwell, but are easily reached by the ladders on fire engines. Then you have the modern blocks built for the top end of the market to modern standards with sprinklers and alarms.

The British are some of the biggest spenders on home extensions and renovations. Indeed it is often said that our economy is far too dependent on house prices and everybody is playing the game, with individuals adding spare rooms, loft conversions and digging out basements, and housing associations and private landlords gentrifying whole streets and neighbourhoods. The idea that we all live in unreconstructed Victorian slums is just for those who don't know better. As for the vast majority of London's homes being death traps, this is plain wrong

There are some major lessons to be learned here. Our building codes have not been updated in ten years, and in that time this type of cladding has both become more prevalent, and been responsible for fires that should have been contained, spreading up the exterior of clad buildings.

The ruling conservative party have prevented any revisions to the building code, no doubt because at the last count 120 conservative mp's are also private landlords. In sickening scenes that are coming back to haunt them they jeered Labour mps as they tried and failed to amend the codes.
Lastly the conservative Kensington and Chelsea council have blood on their hands for their stonewalling of resident's concerns, including threatening legal action against those who said the renovations created an increased risk of fire. They have also manifestly failed to cope with the disaster, being almost completely absent from the magnificent mobilisation of ordinary people in support of the survivors.
But hey, they have one of the lowest local tax rates in the country and a reported £300million cash surplus so that's what really matters

Finally it has been reported that there was an alternative type of fire resistant cladding available from the same supplier, at an increased cost of £2 per sheet or £4500 per block, that might have prevented this man-made tragedy but was not used on the grounds of cost.
Which is an obscenity

I just finished reading your post. You hit many of the major points. Thank you for taking the time to share something very very important.
I feel deep sorrow, and all my heart is with all the victims and all their families. People are the most precious values in life, way way above all the world's money. Without people money would have never been invented. And that's what kills us and we let it take over our lives. Where are our true human values?

bonzo75 · Jun 18, 2017

DaveyF said:
Perhaps, perhaps not...but the old ones..and I think we can agree on this...they totally dominate the landscape. Plus, they are unlikely to be updated to anything like SOTA fire safety standards--particularly in areas that are lower income! While it is true that the construction being brick may be a benefit, the overall condition and therefore potential for disaster is high ( from vast fires, flooding, etc), IMO. Another example,God help anyone there if there is an earthquake!! ( which BTW can happen..even though it is unlikely) Take the Underground, it strikes me that the potential for a disaster is high!! Victorian construction and its technology just doesn't insure safety, irrespective of "upgrades"...IMHO.

They are low rise and therefore safer. Also the high income areas are where there are more victorian. The low income areas where the council houses are, were built in the 60s and 70s like the one where the disaster happened (this is the third such disaster though this is bigger).

LL21 · Jun 18, 2017

DaveyF said:
Perhaps, perhaps not...but the old ones..and I think we can agree on this...they totally dominate the landscape. Plus, they are unlikely to be updated to anything like SOTA fire safety standards--particularly in areas that are lower income! While it is true that the construction being brick may be a benefit, the overall condition and therefore potential for disaster is high ( from vast fires, flooding, etc), IMO. Another example,God help anyone there if there is an earthquake!! ( which BTW can happen..even though it is unlikely) Take the Underground, it strikes me that the potential for a disaster is high!! Victorian construction and its technology just doesn't insure safety, irrespective of "upgrades"...IMHO.

I can see where you are coming from. That being said, the funny thing about the older 18th and 19th century homes is...they're still here after 200+ years! In all seriousness, you should see what people do in these homes now with planning permission. Automatic firewalls, fireproofing around base structures, shrapnel-proof laminates on window glass, even bullet-proof in some cases if you want to spend enough. All new plumbing, electrical, etc is a given. And with often 12"-18" thick walls in the base structure (sometimes redone or reinforced if older), the base structure for low-rise is actually pretty good.

Interesting that unlike the northeast U.S. where timber construction is typical for single family...people in the UK wont touch it because of the fear of fires. New UK low-rise construction tends to be concrete/masonry.

infinitely baffled · Jun 18, 2017

LL21 said:
I can see where you are coming from. That being said, the funny thing about the older 18th and 19th century homes is...they're still here after 200+ years! In all seriousness, you should see what people do in these homes now with planning permission. Automatic firewalls, fireproofing around base structures, shrapnel-proof laminates on window glass, even bullet-proof in some cases if you want to spend enough. All new plumbing, electrical, etc is a given. And with often 12"-18" thick walls in the base structure (sometimes redone or reinforced if older), the base structure for low-rise is actually pretty good.

Interesting that unlike the northeast U.S. where timber construction is typical for single family...people in the UK wont touch it because of the fear of fires. New UK low-rise construction tends to be concrete/masonry.

It's widely accepted among British builders, and anyone who has ever worked renovating Victorian era buildings, that we no longer build them like we used to. Or in other words, the Victorian buildings that remain in London are most likely the best built and most over engineered structures there are

bonzo75 · Jun 18, 2017

infinitely baffled said:
It's widely accepted among British builders, and anyone who has ever worked renovating Victorian era buildings, that we no longer build them like we used to. Or in other words, the Victorian buildings that remain in London are most likely the best built and most over engineered structures there are

Exactly. And the pricing reflects it

infinitely baffled · Jun 18, 2017

DaveyF said:
Perhaps, perhaps not...but the old ones..and I think we can agree on this...they totally dominate the landscape.

If one good thing comes out of this awful business if might be a debate about the future of 60's and 70's concrete brutalist high rises.
They were part of a utopian experiment that has failed

Blue58 · Jun 18, 2017

Hackney now has some if the largest timber buildings in Europe.
http://waughthistleton.com/dalston-lane/

Long gone are the days of building with Accrington brick, a staple 'up north' and almost indestructible. The London brick, the yellow stuff, is much softer.

It's 50s/60s/70s high rises that are the problem, the sooner we get rid of them the better.

NorthStar · Jun 18, 2017

What was the most surprising aspect in that fire is the rapidity @ which the flames spread above. Almost in all the windows we saw flames on an alarming active level. I was searching for the time it took to engulf the entire 24-story structure, and I ended up reading details from wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenfell_Tower_fire

Renovation

"Plans for renovation of the tower were publicised in 2012. Overseen by Studio E Architects, the £8.7 million refurbishment, undertaken by Rydon Ltd, of Forest Row, East Sussex in conjunction with Artelia for contract administration and Max Fordham as specialist mechanical and electrical consultants, was completed in 2016. As part of the project, in 2015–2016, the concrete structure received new windows and new aluminium composite rainscreen cladding, in part to improve the appearance of the building. Two types were used: Arconic's Reynobond, which consists of two, coil-coated, aluminium sheets that are fusion bonded to both sides of a polyethylene core; and Reynolux aluminium sheets. Beneath these, and fixed to the outside of the walls of the flats, was Celotex RS5000 PIR thermal insulation. The work was carried out by Harley Facades of Crowborough, East Sussex, at a cost of £2.6 million.

The original contractor, Leadbitter, had been dropped by KCTMO because their price of £11.278 million was £1.6 million higher than the proposed budget for the refurbishment. The contract was put out to competitive tender. Rydon's bid was £2.5 million less than Leadbitter's.

In the hours following the fire, one of the companies involved in the refurbishment, ventilation company WITT UK, removed all references to the refurbishment from its website. It had been responsible for the smoke ventilation and extraction system fitted to the building during the refit.

The last paragraph above ? wow; some people are feeling the heat!
_____

@Francisco: My heart is also in Portugal today.

DaveyF · Jun 18, 2017

LL21 said:
I can see where you are coming from. That being said, the funny thing about the older 18th and 19th century homes is...they're still here after 200+ years! In all seriousness, you should see what people do in these homes now with planning permission. Automatic firewalls, fireproofing around base structures, shrapnel-proof laminates on window glass, even bullet-proof in some cases if you want to spend enough. All new plumbing, electrical, etc is a given. And with often 12"-18" thick walls in the base structure (sometimes redone or reinforced if older), the base structure for low-rise is actually pretty good.

Interesting that unlike the northeast U.S. where timber construction is typical for single family...people in the UK wont touch it because of the fear of fires. New UK low-rise construction tends to be concrete/masonry.

While that is very true Lloyd, I think you are talking of areas that are high income. The lower income areas, like Islington, Hackney ( previously mentioned) and so many others are still filled with older Victorian era homes that haven't typically been updated like you are stating. I do agree with 'infinitely baffled' that most of the buildings from the 60's and 70's are no better...and may in fact be worse. Question is, how may structures in London are a disaster waiting to happen? It would seem that the building codes for retrofitting so many of these structures needs to be majorly revised ( with no slack given simply due to age/historic value) --and requirements put in place to enforce immediate compliance. No easy task, but by the look of it...very necessary!

NorthStar · Jun 18, 2017

I sure am learning a great deal more from our friends in London, UK.
And Davey, you too seem to be quite knowledgeable about buildings and codes from the London areas.

zztop7 · Jun 18, 2017

Why do refrigerators blow up in England? I understand how a refrigertor works, commercial & residential.

zz.

NorthStar · Jun 18, 2017

zztop7 said:
Why do refrigerators blow up in England? I understand how a refrigertor works, commercial & residential.

zz.

Short circuit ? compressor explosion.

Tower in London | Gone in smoke, and with it 58 human lives, maybe more

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