A continuation on issues that were discussed here recently.
http://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/beauty-audio-money/
http://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/beauty-audio-money/
Beauty, Audio, and Money
- Thread starter Al M.
- Start date
Interesting comparison... but the parallels don't hold in the US much, not sure anyone buys audio to impress others these days while cars are all about image and a deeply emotional purchase. I used to sell cars when I was young and I can say the worst thing a salesperson can do is offer factual information about a car that contradicts the customers feelings about the car. This is why car salespeople rarely offer information unless you ask. Many really don't know much about the cars they sell and often it's best that way for sales. As a very successful electronics sales person I had to completely change tactics to sell cars.
One quote from the article:
All of those "sleepers" are DIY. If you want high performance electronics without paying big prices you need to DIY, hire someone for custom work or find a direct-sale company aligned with your values that makes a product you like. Otherwise the gear is going to be marketed to actually sell to folks, which entails making it look nice, selling through middlemen, etc... and hence higher prices and luxury pricing.
And finally, while there are some "sleepers" out there there are far more factory-built sports cars... I can mod my STi to keep up with a 911 Turbo for 1/3rd the price of the Porsche but it's never going to be a 911 Turbo...
EDIT: And while the author laments the lack of "sleeper" audio he's wrong, or unwilling to put in the effort to find them. There are LOTS of direct-sale audio companies these days offering high value items but they don't advertise as much and are mostly ignored by the audio media. So I'd also argue it's directly the author's fault, and his own fellow audio journalists, that are the problem because they do nothing to bring awareness to these products, in fact they are pointedly ignored by the most prominent reviewers. One of my customers was a friend of one the "big boys" and thought my D4 was so good he needed to hear it but I was told my cable would never be mentioned in public or print. I have no idea why...
One quote from the article:
All of those "sleepers" are DIY. If you want high performance electronics without paying big prices you need to DIY, hire someone for custom work or find a direct-sale company aligned with your values that makes a product you like. Otherwise the gear is going to be marketed to actually sell to folks, which entails making it look nice, selling through middlemen, etc... and hence higher prices and luxury pricing.
And finally, while there are some "sleepers" out there there are far more factory-built sports cars... I can mod my STi to keep up with a 911 Turbo for 1/3rd the price of the Porsche but it's never going to be a 911 Turbo...
EDIT: And while the author laments the lack of "sleeper" audio he's wrong, or unwilling to put in the effort to find them. There are LOTS of direct-sale audio companies these days offering high value items but they don't advertise as much and are mostly ignored by the audio media. So I'd also argue it's directly the author's fault, and his own fellow audio journalists, that are the problem because they do nothing to bring awareness to these products, in fact they are pointedly ignored by the most prominent reviewers. One of my customers was a friend of one the "big boys" and thought my D4 was so good he needed to hear it but I was told my cable would never be mentioned in public or print. I have no idea why...
Interesting article. Thank you for sharing it. A few ideas jump off the bat:
- The writer is not familiar with the economic principle of price discrimination, a concept of charging defferent prices to different customers in order to separate customers and maximize profit. In audio, successful business companies like Magico offer their speaker in a "plane" finish on their speakers or charge an upgrade to others who want a prettier finish for a few grand more, in order to capture both the segment that is looking for functionality AND the segment that is looking for beauty and functionality
- Using his car analogy, just because I do not take my car to the track everyday and get it to go 200 mph every time, doesn't mean that I do not enjoy going from 40 mph to 60 mph in 1 second! The fact that the engine enables the car to get to 200mph allows me to get to 60 mph very fast as well
- Tastes aside, how many audiophiles are maximizing their systems? A small amount of bass traps in corners (not to kill sound but to improve bass) and speaker placement adjustments could probably benefit 80% of guys who have spent big bucks in their hobby
- How many audiophiles have right-sized speakers for their rooms?
....
- The writer is not familiar with the economic principle of price discrimination, a concept of charging defferent prices to different customers in order to separate customers and maximize profit. In audio, successful business companies like Magico offer their speaker in a "plane" finish on their speakers or charge an upgrade to others who want a prettier finish for a few grand more, in order to capture both the segment that is looking for functionality AND the segment that is looking for beauty and functionality
- Using his car analogy, just because I do not take my car to the track everyday and get it to go 200 mph every time, doesn't mean that I do not enjoy going from 40 mph to 60 mph in 1 second! The fact that the engine enables the car to get to 200mph allows me to get to 60 mph very fast as well
- Tastes aside, how many audiophiles are maximizing their systems? A small amount of bass traps in corners (not to kill sound but to improve bass) and speaker placement adjustments could probably benefit 80% of guys who have spent big bucks in their hobby
- How many audiophiles have right-sized speakers for their rooms?
....
I think most of the cost of new gear is in the fancy casing costs - some say its for controlling resonance, but I kinda have my doubts and would love to see some testing on that (which we never will).
Hi Keith,
A lot of pricing we see in the industry is luxury pricing. It's irrational for companies to price middle or low because potential customers will assume the product sucks and will not buy it... Even the still point footer and such are priced high...
Well with hifi the looks matter primarily to the buyer and probably his significant other. They also matter to the guys hifi buddies...so there is a bit of prestige involved just not to the wider public.
DIY is a great way for some product classes but not for all of them. DIY cartridge?? Nope. TT? unlikely. DIY tube amp? Maybe. SS amp? unlikely DIY DAC? sure but not from scratch (Soekris or equivalent + power supply). There are some pretty good sleeper stuff from Asia (not Japan though).
"What's also understandable, but that I don't want to live with, is what seems like an ever-increasing number of audio products that are going for great looks, fancy materials, and high prices but without giving, in my humble opinion, the high performance that's supposed to be part of the package. This includes any number of product types—turntables and tonearms that are violently expensive and utterly gorgeous, but that seem to offer no sonic improvement whatsoever; ultra-exotic, ultra-expensive speakers that are only okay sounding; tube electronics that seems to have had their tube complement chosen just for the weird color of its glow or the size or peculiarity of its glassware; or even, in my own specialty area, the use of carbon fiber or exotic wood connector shells and other hardware that, other than being pretty and adding to the cables' price, I know to do nothing at all."
This bothers me as well and I hear it too much at shows and dealers. if it is going to cost like that then it should deliver the performance. Too many pieces are looking like that 200 mph Ferrari but really are more like Fiat 500 under the skin. At least in the supercar arena there is a way to assess this objectively. If only the common measurements did the trick for audio...but they don't. With subjectivity comes the psychology of branding and promotion and all too often the Emperor has no clothes...
I have no doubt that this is generally true. But some specifics would be nice. Are a lot of these tiny brands that may sell 2 or 3 pieces a year, one of which goes to the designer's mother (because she loves him), or are these established brands? If it's the latter, there is probably an established niche the product appeals to that buys a lot of it. I generally do not like the Soulution sound, but their casing is gorgeous. To my eyes, it is by far the best looking amp in all of high end audio. It even won the prestigious red dot design award.
Yup, I was fortunate with great direct-sale gear over the last three or so years that punches way above its price (not sure for items 2., but they're very good nonetheless):
- BorderPatrol external power supplies for my tube amps (well reviewed, but hardly marketed)
- SolidSteel racks and amp stands
- Reference 3A monitor speakers
- ZenWave Audio D4 interconnects (hey, don't you make these?
) - Schiit Yggdrasil DAC
Surprises me as little as it does you probably. People want to 'protect the industry' and not upset the apple cart.
Last edited:
I asked Jim Smith about this when he was doing his "RoomPlay" service on my system and room. He said that 100% of his clients benefitted from his services, which are basically optimizing the speakers and listening seat location to the room. My guess is that the vast majority of people would benefit from such a service. There are certainly exceptions including those audiophiles who know how to do this themselves and those who are lucky enough to have their dealer or speaker designer set up the speakers for them. But this is rare. Every system I have heard has benefitted from some speaker positioning tweaking. The great thing is that this just takes experience, a willingness to make the effort, the ability to listen critically and finally, knowing what one wants the sound to be like, either based on some reference or some preference or both. And it is free.
Similar threads
Members online
- Designsfx
- andi
- norm
- Rexp
- Salectric
- mtemur
- earl3090
- shawnf
- Geoffkait
- Michaelbbubles
- Neil.Antin
- SaiteiMan
- Pallen
- kennyb123
- escultor
- rob
- puroagave
- redscouser
- Kyle1
- oldmustang
- Glide3
- five
- Bushikai
- joet
- Porsche
- KPC
- pcosta
- willgall
- CKKeung
- Sharok
- lwr
- thekong
- Tuckia
- ticktock
- dbeau
- Rumpole
- alank46
- Young Skywalker
- Zigis
- Sampajanna
- audiobomber
- Argonaut
- dminches
- Skanda
- tonytsui
- RobertL
- ledoux1238
- Republicoftexas69
- elem79
- SaberPunch
 | Steve Williams Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator |  | Ron Resnick Site Co-Owner | Administrator |  | Julian (The Fixer) Website Build | Marketing Managersing |