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So you will give them, that is the Kakuon amps, a serious listen Adam? Do you know how old these amps are and what kind of tubes it will use?
I had of Audionote
pre M10 and M7KSL
phono GE1
amp Gakuon 2 Ongaku Neiro Neiro Silver Kageki Baransu 2 Souga
I know very well M77, Kassai silver,Kegon and Gakuho that has one my friend living 5 minutes from my home
the worse is Gakuon because his sound is little dark and too heavy in mid bass,and absolutely the best is the new Souga,very natural,dynamic with good bass and magic mid high
Other very good is Kageki,with 2A3 and silver transformer,but 5/6 watt maximo and half dynamic of Souga.
Also Baransu is fantastic,with 300B and silver transformer.
Ongaku has good power,22 watt better than Gakuon,having the same tube 211,better because more transparent,natural and with good mid bass/bass,less heavy in the mid bass ,so more neutral and natural
Less transparent than Souga,same dynamic, but with more power and you listen the sound came out more easy from speaker.
One day,i and my friend tried all day and evening M10 with Neiro Silver,Kageki,Kegon,Kassai,Ongaku,Gakuon and the prototype Gakuon mono with Versa Dynamic turntable,IOM
and speaker monovia Yamamura Dionisio
The best was Kageki,then Kegon and Ongaku
Other my friend had M 1000 with GakuonII and Souga.
Also in this case my friend prefer much more Souga than Gakuon II
One day we tried the old Ongaku against the new Ongaku KSL
The KSL version was better,more transparent and natural
Other trial was old M7 silver against M7 KSL.The KSL version much better in everything
We tried M77,no bad but little dark
A lot of people want to buy the old series because was made from mr. Kondo,but new KSL series is much better,for my and my friends taste.
Regards
pre M10 and M7KSL
phono GE1
amp Gakuon 2 Ongaku Neiro Neiro Silver Kageki Baransu 2 Souga
I know very well M77, Kassai silver,Kegon and Gakuho that has one my friend living 5 minutes from my home
the worse is Gakuon because his sound is little dark and too heavy in mid bass,and absolutely the best is the new Souga,very natural,dynamic with good bass and magic mid high
Other very good is Kageki,with 2A3 and silver transformer,but 5/6 watt maximo and half dynamic of Souga.
Also Baransu is fantastic,with 300B and silver transformer.
Ongaku has good power,22 watt better than Gakuon,having the same tube 211,better because more transparent,natural and with good mid bass/bass,less heavy in the mid bass ,so more neutral and natural
Less transparent than Souga,same dynamic, but with more power and you listen the sound came out more easy from speaker.
One day,i and my friend tried all day and evening M10 with Neiro Silver,Kageki,Kegon,Kassai,Ongaku,Gakuon and the prototype Gakuon mono with Versa Dynamic turntable,IOM
and speaker monovia Yamamura Dionisio
The best was Kageki,then Kegon and Ongaku
Other my friend had M 1000 with GakuonII and Souga.
Also in this case my friend prefer much more Souga than Gakuon II
One day we tried the old Ongaku against the new Ongaku KSL
The KSL version was better,more transparent and natural
Other trial was old M7 silver against M7 KSL.The KSL version much better in everything
We tried M77,no bad but little dark
A lot of people want to buy the old series because was made from mr. Kondo,but new KSL series is much better,for my and my friends taste.
Regards
That is indeed a lot of Kondo experience. In my own systems I listened to the Kondo made M1000 mk i and M1000 mk ii. I clearly preferred the former to the latter. Furthermore I used to own the Gakuon amps but sold those and now I play with Gakuoh push pull and Gakuoh single ended amps. In addition I use the Kondo step up and listened to the Ongaku a few times many years ago.
To my ears the Kondo equipment stand out for their finesse, liquidity and non mechanical sound. In high quality systems you can hear that the Kondo gear is transparent sounding as well although there are some solid state devices that present details in a more obvious way. Always have the feeling that these devices are overdoing this ' transparency thing': nice for audiophiles who get a kick out of hearing details more clearly but somewhat unnatural to me. But in the end this is of course always a matter of taste.
Gian60, have you any experience so far with the new Kondo G1000 preamp and Kagura power amps?
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Dear Rudolph,
You must have mistaken me for Gian..hehe
I have listened to Kagura +G1000 with Living Voice. They sounded terrific. But never in my own system. I use a custom SET monos from Ayon with Cessaro horn. Also sound at least as good as the Kagura + G1000 though.
Kind regards,
Tang
Dear Rudolph,
You must have mistaken me for Gian..hehe
I have listened to Kagura +G1000 with Living Voice. They sounded terrific. But never in my own system. I use a custom SET monos from Ayon with Cessaro horn. Also sound at least as good as the Kagura + G1000 though.
Kind regards,
Tang
Ah, stupid, my mistake.
It is very difficoult to compare the 300B based stuff and parallel 211 like the GakuOn (or Kagura), simply 'cos they are designed to drive a very different types of speakers. On high efficiency speakers, designs based on 2A3 or 300B are likely to sound better ... If you can live with the limitations of high efficiency speakers.
The GakuOn is much more powerful than any of the 300B based designs. It has typically 52-54WPC and can drive real world speakers. The guy who ownes those is a big Kondo fan, who also has the M-1000 mk 1, Ongaku (in another system) and have tried all the amps you mentioned plus Kegon, Gaku-Oh and the latest Kagura - and ended up prefering the GakuOns to all other Kondo amps in his system.
The pair he has is very special and I doubt many people had a chance to listen to it. It is called Gaku-On Shinden and there have been only 10 pairs made to commemorate Kondo-san death (Shinden means 'Temple' in japanese). The real unicorn. The Shinden is the last Kondo-san design, which includes refinements over the regular GakuOn, including different silver output transformers. The amp is even more powerful than the basic Gaku-On (if the word 'basic' can be even used describe $200.000 Kondo amp) and has 62-63WPC - more than any Kondo amp ever had (the new Kagura has 45WPC).
Gaku-On Shinden sound snappier and has better microdynamics than the more mellow sounding Kagura.
This is the pic of a regular Gaku-On II (but the Shinden looks the same):
I should have them for a couple of weeks. I wonder how they will work with M3s. The Kaguras had no problem with S5, so these should work too. At least I hope so!
The GakuOn is much more powerful than any of the 300B based designs. It has typically 52-54WPC and can drive real world speakers. The guy who ownes those is a big Kondo fan, who also has the M-1000 mk 1, Ongaku (in another system) and have tried all the amps you mentioned plus Kegon, Gaku-Oh and the latest Kagura - and ended up prefering the GakuOns to all other Kondo amps in his system.
The pair he has is very special and I doubt many people had a chance to listen to it. It is called Gaku-On Shinden and there have been only 10 pairs made to commemorate Kondo-san death (Shinden means 'Temple' in japanese). The real unicorn. The Shinden is the last Kondo-san design, which includes refinements over the regular GakuOn, including different silver output transformers. The amp is even more powerful than the basic Gaku-On (if the word 'basic' can be even used describe $200.000 Kondo amp) and has 62-63WPC - more than any Kondo amp ever had (the new Kagura has 45WPC).
Gaku-On Shinden sound snappier and has better microdynamics than the more mellow sounding Kagura.
This is the pic of a regular Gaku-On II (but the Shinden looks the same):
I should have them for a couple of weeks. I wonder how they will work with M3s. The Kaguras had no problem with S5, so these should work too. At least I hope so!
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Interesting couple of weeks lie ahead of you! Never heard the shinden but a friend of mine in Paris changed his (non Shinden) Gakuons for Kagura's and is of the opinion that the latter - although the specs (around 50 watts output) are the same - sounds much, much more powerful than the former.
If I remember correctly in one or two reviews of the Kagura amps (Audio Exotique review was one of them I believe) was also mentioned that the Kagura's are clearly more powerful than the Gakuons.
But let's see if the Gakuon Shinden amps are strong enough to drive your Magico loudspeakers.
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Btw, the quality of music replay with the Kondo equipments (of course) varies greatly with the valves and the power cords that are being used. Therefore my previous question regarding the tubes but I suppose your 'Kondo friend' has some great input, 211 and rectifier tubes available.
For example, lately Myles Astor tested the Kagura amps in Positive-Feedback with standard (Kondo supplied non nos) tubes. I am sure in such a (standard) configuration the Kaguras (as other Kondo equipment) are not able to demonstrate what they are really capable of.
For example, lately Myles Astor tested the Kagura amps in Positive-Feedback with standard (Kondo supplied non nos) tubes. I am sure in such a (standard) configuration the Kaguras (as other Kondo equipment) are not able to demonstrate what they are really capable of.
No idea, as I don't have them at home just yet. I will let you know. Each Kondo amp comes with a test sheet where the actual (measured) power output #s are given. Those Shindens measure 62WPC and 64WPC respectively ~10WPC more than you can see from the regular GakuOn II (or Kagura).
But the difference between the sound of Shinden and Kagura has more to do with the speed and microdynamics than power. But then again - I can imagine someone preferring the Kaguras over GakuOn Shindens in his system.
But the difference between the sound of Shinden and Kagura has more to do with the speed and microdynamics than power. But then again - I can imagine someone preferring the Kaguras over GakuOn Shindens in his system.
Hello, is it possible for you to share your experiences with the Kondo Kagura amps with us? Have you used other Kondo poweramps before and if so, how did they compare to the Kagura's? Thanks.
I have used an Kondo Ongaku and an Audio Note UK Ongaku before as well as Kondo M77 preamp and Audio Note UK M9 preamp. The systems were quite different so direct comparisons are difficult. I'm sure most people are familiar with the Kondo house sound compare to the Audio Note UK so I won't go into that. The Kagura can be described as a bit of a beast, a little bit more of the Kondo pizazz with the ability to drive quite a few more speakers than the Ongaku I think. My Ongaku was used with Stradivaris and Marten Coltrane 2s and struggled a little bit when things got tough although I habitually do not turn the volume up that high anyway. With the Kaguras I never go above 11am on the M1000 dial. That's in a room almost 40 feet long, 16 feet wide with 12 foot ceilings. It retains that dynamic quality the Kondo is known for, much more so that Audio Note UK hence my venture back to Kondo. I have played with the Gakuons as well and the Kaguras seem (it was a different system) to have much more power than the standard Gakuons but I found the Ongaku sweeter than the Gakuons. The Kaguras, imho, seem to have retained the Onagku's sweetness but added a turbo charger to allow it be paired with more speakers. The Aidas are a good fit to the Kaguras as well. They are a keeper. Now I need to look at the G-1000...
Yes, you should definately have a look into the g1000. I have listened insensively to the G1000, it is a marvelous linestage and it brings the best out of the Kagura's. A person I know in Paris replaced his m1000 mk ii by a G1000 and the latter was in his view much better than the m1000 mk ii and a match in heaven with the Kagura's. In all honesty, I was never boiled over by the m1000 mk ii and clearly prefer the m1000 mk i.
You are referring to the 'sweetness' of the Ongaku (did you play with an older Kondo San Ongaku or with a later non Kondo San version?) and of the Kagura's: are the latter also as pure and unmechanical sounding as the former in your view? I played with the (non Shinden) 211 Gakuons in the past but these amps could in my opinion not compete in my Genesis 1.1 set up with the 300b Gakuohs.
Are you using the stock Kondo tubes in your Kagura's? If you are using nos valves, may I ask which ones? Do you for example have any experience with CV181 tubes in stead of the 6sn7 valves in the Kagura's?
And did you experiment with pc's? I know the Kagura's need two pc's per amp and probably the pc for the heater is the most important of the two.
A lot of questions, I know, but there are not many WBF members with 'Kagura experience'.
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My Ongaku was post Kondo-San. The Kondo-San era ones command a significant cost penalty. I think there is something romantic about the kondo-san era ones but not sure if I'm convinced they are all worth the penalty as Masaki-San had a pretty heavy input even early on.
Yes I am using stock tubes for now. Rolling 211s can get pretty expensive. I would love to try it later on though. Any recommendations? RCA? GE?
I use Crystal Cable PCs mainly because they are what i already have and I detest fire hose sized PCs. They are a real pain to manipulate behind an amp and with two for each mono block one can go crazy! It's interesting that you think the heater is the more important. Has anyone tried rolling PCs between the two IED connectors?
Right now I cam happy to just sit back and listen.
My Ongaku was post Kondo-San. The Kondo-San era ones command a significant cost penalty. I think there is something romantic about the kondo-san era ones but not sure if I'm convinced they are all worth the penalty as Masaki-San had a pretty heavy input even early on.
Yes I am using stock tubes for now. Rolling 211s can get pretty expensive. I would love to try it later on though. Any recommendations? RCA? GE?
I use Crystal Cable PCs mainly because they are what i already have and I detest fire hose sized PCs. They are a real pain to manipulate behind an amp and with two for each mono block one can go crazy! It's interesting that you think the heater is the more important. Has anyone tried rolling PCs between the two IED connectors?
Right now I cam happy to just sit back and listen.
Thanks Howie. And yes, you should sit back, listen and foremost enjoy your Kondo equipment!
As regards nos 211 tubes: most of the time I hear the following 'rating':
1. United Electronics
2. RCA
3. General Electric
4. Currently made 211 valves.
Of course there is always a matter of taste involved in these kind of listings.
Have heard the RCA 211 in the Kagura's and they sounded really fine. But as always it is also a matter of (fine)tuning: for example most of the time the GE power tubes sound brighter than the United Electronics and RCA 211 valves and you can 'remedy' this with choosing softer or more mellow sounding input tubes and rectifiers.
But there is undoubtedly more to it in order to get the best out of your kagura's: apart from the tubes - very, very important indeed with all Kondo equipment: a lot of people judge the performance of the (current) Kondo (pre)amps with the standard supplied Kondo tubes but in that case there is still quite a lot to gain - aspects like the fuses, pc's, ic's, loudspeaker cables, isolation and good matching with the loudspeakers are of course very important as well.
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