Help me to better understand the digital terms I2S and Ethernet Renderer

sbo6

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I'm not sure that definition is accurate. In my system, HQPLAYER contains the renderer, then HQP outputs ethernet to microRendu (configured as NAA) which sends cleaned up USB to DAC.

HQplayer is an, "Upsampling multichannel audio player for Windows, Linux and macOS" as per Signalyst website. It also allows selection / application of many filters and is a converter PCM -> DSD and vice versa. Your microRendu is your renderer.
 

barrows

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OK, lots of conflicting and confusing information here, including just plain wrong information (alternative facts anyone, haha).

Here we go:

I2S is essentially the native format of digital audio. It is the data stream which goes directly into any DAC chip internally, and consists of 4 single ended data lines: bit clock, word clock, data, and master clock. The single ended, original version, of I2S is used internally in almost every DAC in existence.

There are some manufacturers who use I2S externally to connect a digital transport and a DAC. Typically these companies use a standard put into practice by PS Audio, where the originally single ended I2S data line are converted to balanced (known as LVDS transmission) for better integrity over a long distance (in this case a long distance being anything more than a few centimeters, as single ended I2S was never meant for anything other than internal digital transfer). LVDS I2S transmission is typically carried on an HDMI cable, but it is not HDMI, or compatible with HDMI inputs and outputs, the HDMI cable is just used because it has enough data lines to work, and is an existing cable/jack standard which manufacturers can easily adopt.

An Ethernet Renderer is a digital source component which allows for Networked audio. A Renderer, will have an Ethernet input to connect to the Network, and the usual digital output(s) to connect to a DAC. These outputs might include any of the following: SPDIF, AES (which is just balanced SPDIF), USB, I2S, etc. In terms of sound quality, the reason to use an Ethernet Renderer is to get all the noisy commercial computer gear away from the vicinity of the audio system. A typical networked audio set up right look like this:
A NAS containing music files, running a server software program such as Minimserver (free) or, perhaps ROON (not free) is in, say, the basement, connected to a network router via Ethernet cabling. Then, an Ethernet cable runs to the room where the audio system is located and connects to the Renderer. Then the Renderer connects to the DAC via the typical suspects of digital audio interconnection. The set-up is then controlled via WiFi, on an app running on a tablet or phone. Examples of Ethernet renderers are the Auralic Aries, and Sonore Rendu products. Additionally, Networked audio allows for multiple endpoints: one might use this to distribute the audio to different rooms in the home, with all the music files still stored in just one place an a NAS (network attached storage) or computer server.

There are, of course, variations on these set ups. As far as ultimate sound quality goes, if we accept "perfect" implementation in every case (hypothetically), using an Ethernet Renderer as a digital source component has the potential to offer the best ever sound quality, and it also allows for easy control and access to a large music library. But, it is not easy to make a perfect implementation, as with anything in the high end, the devil is in the details.
 

Alrainbow

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Maybe I crazy but the post is what is a i2s. It is a protocol only
What we do is what makes it anything
A renderer is a means to connect a device over Ethernet only.
I don't know of any I2s inputs for a renderer and if so it's made for that purpose and is not a renderer per say.
Ps audio has a renderer in the bridge it's connection inside his unit is I2s.
What ever player we connect to it is netwrok wired
While there are I2s hdmi cables it's proprietary to that device no standard as is I2S.
Many players can steam over Ethernet to a renderer.
Msb makes one for there dacs but it still a source running codes to use it.
On my server a desk top computer I can output sound over many ways even some
Dacs use a network protocol to input to. But some still need a means of conversion to it from a source like a server.
I don't think there really is a definite purpose spelled out as there is many network protocols
Used to connect to them
Ps audio has a means that uses camands fro a server to direct its bridge to a NAS.
Msb I don't have but I understand it needs a desktop player.
For me I2s is a type of protocol only what we do with makes different coonection types
 

microstrip

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(...) In terms of sound quality, the reason to use an Ethernet Renderer is to get all the noisy commercial computer gear away from the vicinity of the audio system.

Thanks for a very interesting post - I have some questions. How can we be sure that no noise goes through the Ethernet link and the Ethernet system added noise is not subjectively harmful?

A typical networked audio set up right look like this:
A NAS containing music files, running a server software program such as Minimserver (free) or, perhaps ROON (not free) is in, say, the basement, connected to a network router via Ethernet cabling. Then, an Ethernet cable runs to the room where the audio system is located and connects to the Renderer. Then the Renderer connects to the DAC via the typical suspects of digital audio interconnection. in the home, with all the music files still stored in just one place an a NAS (network attached storage) or computer server. (...)

It looks that the router also becomes a key point in the system. Why don't developers design "tweaked" audiophile routers?

(...) as with anything in the high end, the devil is in the details.

Yes, we know about that.
 

sbo6

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Strikes me that its not possible to listen to a technology, only particular implementations of that technology.

Thank you captain obvious! ;-)

So all the listening in the world can't tell if the technology itself is ill-fitted for a particular application.
Disagree. By listening to multiple sources implementing different I/O technology (coupled with measurements) we can deduce which yields sonic benefits. That said, audio is subjective, my best may be your worst...

Those add-ons are telling me the current implementations suck but can be cleaned up. So that tends to indicate the tech itself isn't the problem. Eventually all the USB-purifying gizmos will get integrated into the components themselves. Take for example Schiit's next-gen USB, it now includes isolation which evidently they forgot about before.
Just because an I/O technology or any technology for that matter can be further "cleaned up" or optimized doesn't mean the tech isn't the problem. It means there's more to gain because the bar is set lower to begin with...
 

barrows

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1. You cannot be is the short answer. One can never be certain that all noise is eliminated, in fact, all noise is never eliminated in any audio product, you can only reduce noise, never eliminate it entirely. But, one nice thing about Ethernet is that it is transformer isolated at both ends, this is part of the Ethernet spec, so at least a lot of noise will be eliminated right there. There are many things to consider when using Ethernet in a high end system (like yours): Ethernet reception requires much more processing power than, for example, USB. So it is not enough to use a cheap Ethernet Renderer, like any high end product, there are really good Renderers, and there are not so good ones. The really good ones address noise in every way possible: ultra low noise power supplies, no commercial grade computer parts (mother boards etc) inside, only custom made high end quality designed boards with good layouts not built to commercial computer grade standards (which means lowest cost possible). And no use of switching power supplies or switching regulators. That is just the start, for top performance, the entire renderer needs to be designed and built to high end standards, just like any high end audio product.

2. Your question about routers is interesting. I suspect that within a year we may see, "audiophile routers", although the influence of the router is small if the renderer itself is well designed, I would not say there is no influence. I get a slight improvement in my system by powering my router with an ultra low noise power supply, despite how much consternation this causes me! Even so, with a stock router, in another room and plugged into a different power line than the audio system, its influence is small enough that with a good Renderer you will have better sound quality than using something like a high end server in your audio system (SGM, Antipodes, etc).
 

sbo6

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I get a slight improvement in my system by powering my router with an ultra low noise power supply, despite how much consternation this causes me! Even so, with a stock router, in another room and plugged into a different power line than the audio system, its influence is small enough that with a good Renderer you will have better sound quality than using something like a high end server in your audio system (SGM, Antipodes, etc).

X2 agree, I also get a slight improvement powering my netgear with a LPSU. It would be interesting to see how much (if any) difference different routers make.
 

koalakoala

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btw, the Japanese are having audiophile grade nas (like the Fidata I use) with dual Ethernet ports - one feeding renderer direct, second one to router for Wi-Fi control. This way the audio signal is not going through router.
 

barrows

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I would suggest that one have everything else in the system perfectly sorted before going the route of "audiophile" routers/NAS/Switch etc. While there are likely some small benefits to these some of these products, these benefits will be minute. There is not a lot of noise transferred over Ethernet due to its galvanic isolation, and the main culprit to deal with when using Ethernet distributed audio is always going to be the Ethernet receiver itself, as this is in the audio system, and is a small computer, with all the processor noise that entails. Make sure your Ethernet endpoint in the system is the best engineered product it can be first (biggest SQ gain here), then work backwards away from the audio system refining the rest of the data path.
 

barrows

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btw, the Japanese are having audiophile grade nas (like the Fidata I use) with dual Ethernet ports - one feeding renderer direct, second one to router for Wi-Fi control. This way the audio signal is not going through router.


I am skeptical that not going through the router is going to have any benefit. Either way we are talking about very noisy, commercial computer gear (NAS and Router), in fact the NAS contains hard drives, which make the most noise of all, and usually a fan. Motorised electrical equipment makes tons of noise, especially when built to a (low) price point as NAS and Routers typically are.
 

sbo6

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Bso

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as I explained to you in the PM a few days ago, and Renderer is a CPU inside a dac which allows a dac to be on a network. as opposed to either a USB or SPDIF interface which most dacs use and require a server of some sort.

How is an Ethernet Renderer different from an Ethernet Adapter? Can you show us a block diagram?

In the case of Microsoft, they have a spec and test for a Renderer that is separate from the Ethernet Adapter per se.

PC Mag has a "popular" definition of an Ethernet adapter. An Ethernet Adapter transfers data from another system via a cable to switch or to an Ethernet Adapter that does not need a switch. It does checksums, etc.so the problem of jitter induced by USB implementations, etc. does not arise. Accuphase and Linn have been using Ethernet for years. I believe Technics is now using a version in their new offerings, at least the high power amps have a (proprietary) Ethernet input.

One good point is that high end servers, etc. use separate Ethernet adapters from the ones built into the CPU mainboard, just as gamers and data scientist use a separate graphic processing unit (GPU), as a rule, rather than the GPU/CPU/Ethernet, etc. all in one solution used in desktops, laptops, etc. If I were building a system for audio (or other data processing

Do any audio companies use an NVidia GPU to perform the DAC conversion? These are fairly inexpensive and VERY powerful.

I think audio companies cheaped out or didn't understand the technology when they went to USB rather than Ethernet.I can see using USB for backup drives but I'd rather have these on a NAS unless you could connect them directly to your Music Storage unit with a crossover cable or with a unit that has an Ethernet adapter that obviates a crossover cable.

The main consideration, all other things being equal, for a SSD or an HDD for music in a NAS, a computer, or a music server that is network-attached, is that it uses a drive intended for READS rather than WRITES. The only NAS I have seen understanding this consideration is Melco. The audible and RFI etc. noise coming from Melco units is extremely low. I would put one in a rack along with my other digital and analog equipment. Read the reviews in HFN/RR on the Melco. It rocks. It has two E'net adapters at least one of which can take direct input without a switch or feed a device with an Ethernet adapter directly. And I believe it will feed USB cleanly into your legacy DAC.

Look up AES spec AES67 and Ravenna. That is what top quality recording studios use and it is NOT USB based! You can use it for DSD256. I'm not saying it is the right solution for folks who have legacy device built around USB. As far as making I2S do more than what it was originally created to do, engineers are always to be "innovative." I remember the "computer bus(s) wars of the 80s" - every week it seemed a new "Standard" would come out.

Steve from Empirical is correct having gone to Ethernet - I respect his engineering background - it takes a good engineer to say right, my baby is not the right tool for the job!

Just some thoughts.
 
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barrows

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Renderer...

How is an Ethernet Renderer different from an Ethernet adapter? Can you show us a block diagram?

This is a "popular" definition of an Ethernet adapter.
[URL="http://https://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/42782/ethernet-adapter"[/URL]

One good point is that high end servers, etc. use separate Ethernet adapters from the ones built into the CPU mainboard, just as gamers and data scientist use a separate graphic processing unit (GPU), as a rule, rather than the GPU/CPU/Ethernet, etc. all in one solution used in desktops, laptops, etc.

I'm sorry I'm wasting time getting this link widget to work. Please just paste it in your browser.

I could not use your link. Anyway, the Ethernet Renderer to which I am referring is a purpose built component for serving audio files, delivered over Ethernet, to an audio system. The Renderer may have, USB, SPDIF/AES, or even I2S digital outputs suitable for ones DAC, so it is Ethernet in, and digital audio out. A really good Ethernet renderer will be built to audiophile standards, with a custom operating system, without commercial consumer grade motherboards, SMPS, or any switching regulators. Essentially the Renderer is a small, very low power computer, purpose built for only receiving audio files and rendering them to digital audio formats for use by a DAC. The entire reason to use a Renderer is to get the lowest noise, highest integrity digital audio signal to the DAC. This approach also allows all the commercial grade computer stuff (NAS, server, router, switches) and its various SMPS and all the noise these components make well away physically from the audio system.
One uses a really good Ethernet Renderer as a way to improve system performance over any other computer based approaches.
 

Empirical Audio

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I am skeptical that not going through the router is going to have any benefit. Either way we are talking about very noisy, commercial computer gear (NAS and Router), in fact the NAS contains hard drives, which make the most noise of all, and usually a fan. Motorised electrical equipment makes tons of noise, especially when built to a (low) price point as NAS and Routers typically are.

I believe the router or switch can be a very quiet environment, providing that Earth Ground is connected to DC common in those devices. This eliminates most of the leakage noise across the Ethernet transformer. Also, adding an isolator in the cable is helpful because it reduces the coupling capacitance across the transformers by putting more capacitance in series.

Have you found that using faster responding power supplies on the router or switch is beneficial? LPS versus SMPS?

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

Empirical Audio

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I could not use your link. Anyway, the Ethernet Renderer to which I am referring is a purpose built component for serving audio files, delivered over Ethernet, to an audio system. The Renderer may have, USB, SPDIF/AES, or even I2S digital outputs suitable for ones DAC, so it is Ethernet in, and digital audio out. A really good Ethernet renderer will be built to audiophile standards, with a custom operating system, without commercial consumer grade motherboards, SMPS, or any switching regulators. Essentially the Renderer is a small, very low power computer, purpose built for only receiving audio files and rendering them to digital audio formats for use by a DAC. The entire reason to use a Renderer is to get the lowest noise, highest integrity digital audio signal to the DAC. This approach also allows all the commercial grade computer stuff (NAS, server, router, switches) and its various SMPS and all the noise these components make well away physically from the audio system.
One uses a really good Ethernet Renderer as a way to improve system performance over any other computer based approaches.

Could not agree more. I recently measured jitter for my Ethernet renderer design and compared to my almost identical XMOS USB interface design:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=155232.0

Ethernet was the clear winner.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

barrows

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Nice info Steve! As to your other question, i find that a 'fast" (very low impedance) power supply always is beneficial for any digital circuit. It could be SMPS based, or LPS based, as long as the output Z is kept as low as possible. This can be done either by LPS or SMPS, as long as one knows what to do.
In Sonore's top line Renderer (Signature Rendu SE), we use an internal LPS (an internal supply with short wiring will always be "faster" than an external supply) designed to be very very "fast" and extremely low noise. And then of course we have point of load ultra low noise linear regulators on our custom main board (as I recall there are at least 6 very high performance ultra low noise linear regs on the board) for powering each individual section of the circuitry with the lowest possible noise and impedance.
 

Empirical Audio

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Nice info Steve! As to your other question, i find that a 'fast" (very low impedance) power supply always is beneficial for any digital circuit. It could be SMPS based, or LPS based, as long as the output Z is kept as low as possible. This can be done either by LPS or SMPS, as long as one knows what to do.
In Sonore's top line Renderer (Signature Rendu SE), we use an internal LPS (an internal supply with short wiring will always be "faster" than an external supply) designed to be very very "fast" and extremely low noise. And then of course we have point of load ultra low noise linear regulators on our custom main board (as I recall there are at least 6 very high performance ultra low noise linear regs on the board) for powering each individual section of the circuitry with the lowest possible noise and impedance.

I was referring to the supply for the router or switch. Do you have any empirical evidence that a fast LPS or SMPS helps here?

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

microstrip

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I could not use your link. Anyway, the Ethernet Renderer to which I am referring is a purpose built component for serving audio files, delivered over Ethernet, to an audio system. The Renderer may have, USB, SPDIF/AES, or even I2S digital outputs suitable for ones DAC, so it is Ethernet in, and digital audio out. A really good Ethernet renderer will be built to audiophile standards, with a custom operating system, without commercial consumer grade motherboards, SMPS, or any switching regulators. Essentially the Renderer is a small, very low power computer, purpose built for only receiving audio files and rendering them to digital audio formats for use by a DAC. The entire reason to use a Renderer is to get the lowest noise, highest integrity digital audio signal to the DAC. This approach also allows all the commercial grade computer stuff (NAS, server, router, switches) and its various SMPS and all the noise these components make well away physically from the audio system.
One uses a really good Ethernet Renderer as a way to improve system performance over any other computer based approaches.

Why not having an Ethernet output in the Renderer? It would clean the digital noise introduced by the commercial grade computer and would be welcome for those owning systems with Ethernet inputs.
 

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