Help me to better understand the digital terms I2S and Ethernet Renderer

barrows

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Jun 28, 2012
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Why not having an Ethernet output in the Renderer? It would clean the digital noise introduced by the commercial grade computer and would be welcome for those owning systems with Ethernet inputs.

I would suggest that an Ethernet-Ethernet renderer would be redundant. I do not usually advocate reducing noise by increasing components (but sometimes it is necessary). But i would caution folks on using DACs with built in Ethernet interfaces. Most DACs with built in Ethernet interfaces do not have the best implementation of their Ethernet interface. I will site the Linn Klimax DS as being an exception here, and I am not against built in Ethernet interfaces, but most DAC manufacturers are far behind when it comes to Ethernet interface development. Putting an Ethernet interface in a DAC is tricky to do right, it requires extensive shielding and power supply isolation to work right and not interfere with the DAC/Analog circuitry. Remember, the noise coming in over Ethernet is not the only potential problem, the interface itself is a small computer and this needs lots of attention to implementation. Also a lot of built in interfaces have sample rate limitations which may not be acceptable to those who prefer to oversample/filter in software.
 

Empirical Audio

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I would suggest that an Ethernet-Ethernet renderer would be redundant. I do not usually advocate reducing noise by increasing components (but sometimes it is necessary). But i would caution folks on using DACs with built in Ethernet interfaces. Most DACs with built in Ethernet interfaces do not have the best implementation of their Ethernet interface. I will site the Linn Klimax DS as being an exception here, and I am not against built in Ethernet interfaces, but most DAC manufacturers are far behind when it comes to Ethernet interface development. Putting an Ethernet interface in a DAC is tricky to do right, it requires extensive shielding and power supply isolation to work right and not interfere with the DAC/Analog circuitry. Remember, the noise coming in over Ethernet is not the only potential problem, the interface itself is a small computer and this needs lots of attention to implementation. Also a lot of built in interfaces have sample rate limitations which may not be acceptable to those who prefer to oversample/filter in software.

Here are some jitter measurements on my renderer and some DIY renderers:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154299.0

This renderer interface is also in my new DAC, the Overdrive SE. The review is due out in the next 2 weeks from Audiostream. Jesus helped me get started with the renderer BTW. Much appreciated.

Steve N.
 

Empirical Audio

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Bso

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Sep 30, 2016
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Could not agree more. I recently measured jitter for my Ethernet renderer design and compared to my almost identical XMOS USB interface design:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=155232.0

Ethernet was the clear winner.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Properly executed as I'm sure Steve N has done, Ethernet has to be the winner. My next question is, why does the Ethernet Render have to be in a different chassis than a DAC?
 

barrows

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Jun 28, 2012
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I never suggested the Renderer has to be in a different chassis, I just suggested that MOST current Ethernet inputs incorporated in DACs are sub-optimal. And many also are quite limited in terms of sample rates.
Details really matter here, as we are talking about placing a small computer inside a DAC chassis, to keep this from being a problem will require great attention to detail, just making a great Ethernet interface is difficult enough that most DAC manufacturers use a third party solution (and often a very affordable one at that).
As for Ravenna, my understanding is that for DAC manufacturers Merging sells the actual interface (hardware) so that will be another option: Ravenna is completely different protocol than what Ethernet currently uses, and appears to have benefits for running many channels (24+) of audio in the pro environment, but there appears to be no benefit over current methods when they are done correctly. I doubt we will se the Merging/Ravenna interface inside a lot of affordable DACs, as I expect it will cost around 10x that which is most commonly used now.
 

microstrip

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I would suggest that an Ethernet-Ethernet renderer would be redundant. (...)

I would feel tempted to say the same. Theoretically almost all digital devices would be redundant ... Bits are bits as they said ...

However, considering that people have reported that just replacing the Ethernet card of their PC by a better card, such as the JCAT NET Card FEMTO, improved the sound quality of their systems, I feel we can be sure.
 

Empirical Audio

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Properly executed as I'm sure Steve N has done, Ethernet has to be the winner. My next question is, why does the Ethernet Render have to be in a different chassis than a DAC?

It doesn't. I have an external renderer as well as an Ethernet interface inside my DAC. They sound virtually identical using the same DAC and S/PDIF, using my reference BNC cable.

Steve N.
 

Empirical Audio

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I never suggested the Renderer has to be in a different chassis, I just suggested that MOST current Ethernet inputs incorporated in DACs are sub-optimal.

I could say the same for USB. Not very many good implementations in DACs.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

barrows

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Jun 28, 2012
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I could say the same for USB. Not very many good implementations in DACs.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Yeah Steve, at least with Ethernet interfaces most designers have an excuse of not knowing how to do it! With USB implementation it is pretty "known" how to do it right now, and still many, many DAC manufacturers take short cuts with their USB implementation-no excuse for this really at this point.
 

Bso

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Sep 30, 2016
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Yeah Steve, at least with Ethernet interfaces most designers have an excuse of not knowing how to do it! With USB implementation it is pretty "known" how to do it right now, and still many, many DAC manufacturers take short cuts with their USB implementation-no excuse for this really at this point.

I agree on all points. One example is they are still using USB 2.0 when 3.0 has higher bandwidth. Whether there are "cheap" USB 3.0 subsystems ready to drop in their implementations, its not my turn to watch but I think there is an inexpensive USB 3.0 based interface gadget that claims to help, so the subsystems can't be that bad $. All I know it is easier to scale a system down than up. Properly implemented Ethernet has no jitter by design. Steve N. points out some of the issues he has run into with grounds and so on.

I sit back and look at people spend megabucks on multiple chassis systems with streamers, renderers, DACs, switches, NAS, etc. for digital. Sad. Used to Spotify, Tidal SiriusXM, iTunes and other MP3 sources, many are led to believe 44.1k/16b signals are "high resolution." MQA will save the day. Rubbish. Why not take a look at primephonic?

Read Kal's column in "Music in the Round" in either the Jan or Feb. 18 issue of Stereophile. Roughly paraphrasing he describes a multichannel studio recording at DSD256 or higher perhaps mixing down to 7 channel DSD, monitoring with 7 Sound Lab M-645 panels. I wish he would have taken a picture - pin up of the year. Now that is a transparent, high resolution system. I have only two U-645s, and no more room.

More's the pity.
 
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Empirical Audio

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I agree on all points. One example is they are still using USB 2.0 when 3.0 has higher bandwidth. Whether there are "cheap" USB 3.0 subsystems ready to drop in their implementations; its not my turn to watch. All I know it is easier to scale a system down than up. Properly implemented Ethernet has no jitter by design. Steve N. points out some of the issues he has run into with grounds and so on.

That would be nice, but there is always jitter. My latest Ethernet renderer measures 18psec.

I sit back and look at people spend megabucks on triple chassis systems for digital. Used to Spotify, SiriusXM, iTunes and other MP3 sources, many are led to believe 44.1k/16b signals are "high resolution." MQA will save the day. Rubbish.

The technology treadmill is what a lot of audiophiles feel will lead them to nirvana. It's actually the NOS R2R chips that will only do 24/96 that are really shining today, as well as other DACs that have good implementations and did not chase the DSD and MQA treadmill.

Read Kal Robinson's column in "Music in the Round" in either the Jan or Feb. 18 issue of Stereophile. Roughly paraphrasing he describes a multichannel studio recording at DSD256 perhaps mixing down to 7 channel DSD, monitoring with 7 Sound Lab M-645 panels. Now that is a transparent, high resolution system.

I would have to hear it. I hear a lot of these demos at trade shows. I am almost never impressed. I had rooms with megabux dCS Vivaldi systems on both sides of my conference room at one RMAF that I listened-to. I would rather listen in my room, thank you. Most people think I'm playing hi-res or DSD when it's actually 16/44.1 CD rip. It's all about implementation and being clever in the design. The fact is that most audiophiles love the music from the 70's or just play classical etc., so much of the music that is dear to them is not available on DSD or MQA. These people need good sounding systems at 16/44.1.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

microstrip

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(...) I would have to hear it. I hear a lot of these demos at trade shows. I am almost never impressed. I had rooms with megabux dCS Vivaldi systems on both sides of my conference room at one RMAF that I listened-to. I would rather listen in my room, thank you. Most people think I'm playing hi-res or DSD when it's actually 16/44.1 CD rip. It's all about implementation and being clever in the design. The fact is that most audiophiles love the music from the 70's or just play classical etc., so much of the music that is dear to them is not available on DSD or MQA. These people need good sounding systems at 16/44.1.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Fortunately you prefer your own room - otherwise something would be wrong! FYI the Vivaldi system plays CD's excellently - one of the reasons I got it was just because I listen mainly to CD's - although a SACD plays at a different level in this player.
 

Bso

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Sep 30, 2016
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btw, the Japanese are having audiophile grade nas (like the Fidata I use) with dual Ethernet ports - one feeding renderer direct, second one to router for Wi-Fi control. This way the audio signal is not going through router.

MELCOs available in NA and UK, EU have a similar topology. I'll have to check the FiData.
 

Bso

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Sep 30, 2016
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Although I don't always agree with Steve N. I respect his point of view. He's an honest engineer and business person - he's making the best solution he knows, and keeps improving it! - for a given market segment.

BTW I went back and read Kal's article and I did get some of the details incorrect, albeit in haste. I was just "in a plethora" to have someone at Stereophile mention (the new) Sound Labs electrostatic speakers after all these years.
 

Empirical Audio

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