Sorry Marc for a strongman-type of an experience
but our quality mass is a part of the damping mix.
Cheers,
A world first? Passive v active isolation platforms test
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Sorry Marc for a strongman-type of an experience
but our quality mass is a part of the damping mix.
Cheers,
Marc, Thank you for your continued reporting.
#2 is interesting given your "world's first" perspective. I tended to believe the much discussed advantages of active isolation based on the reports and graphs, just like you, but I could not know for sure and a few people did email me suggesting that my Vibraplanes may not be inferior to active platforms, so your thread has proven to be quite interesting to me.
Do you know if Mike and Christian ever did direct comparisons with passive devices? I don't seem to remember any such reports which make your impressions that much more relavent. Marc, are you suggesting that passive isolation in general, and the Stacore in particular, is inherently superior to active isolation for use in high end audio due to its broad band approach?
Did Stacore develop these platforms exclusively for use in high end audio, or are they being used to isolate devices in other industries?
Peter, if I may pop in: We have been developing Stacore products exclusively with high end audio applications in mind.
However, quite surprisingly, we keep receiving some attention from sci/lab. Apparently in microscopic applications (AFM)
kHz capable damping may also be important. So far we didn't have time to investigate this direction but in principle we
are open to other regions of application.
Edit: May I also point out that passive not necessarily means broadband! For example, air springs alone stop working already at some 50Hz or so. We have taken quite an effort to bring the passive concept to a sort of an extreme form and reach a broadband isolation.
Cheers,
Like yourself, I have been following this thread with keen interest and an open mind. The reason is that I feel that active platforms perform best under 200hz and there is little data on its isolation above 200hz. I do subscribe to the concept of broadband isolation and as such wonder about the broadband isolation that Stacore platforms deliver. For myself, I use a combination of Herzan and symposium ultra platform to achieve that broadband isolation and am very happy with the end result...so happy that I cannot imagine listening to my system without it - just like an electron microscope (both low and high end ones) could not perform with such a platform to aid stable imaging captures.
The combination of Herzan and symposium would need enough hifi rack space clearance as together, they are some 6+inches in height. The combo also cost more than the Stacore platforms. This brings my attention to the Taiko platforms that combine active and passive together. I think it would be interesting to compare the stacore agst the Taiko platforms.
While I think the Taiko may outperform, the cost performance ratio is something that needs to be taken into consideration as well. That said, I have already herzan / symposium on all my main components save the speakers.... that would be the next area of experimentation.
Peter, I'm assuming Mike and Christian didn't a/b Herzan v passive
All the energy on their explorations in those Herzan threads never mentioned comparisons, just that the Herzan demos slayed their standard racks at the time
And Stacore was not available then, Vibraplane was discontinued, so Herzan had an open goal to aim for
Now we have Stacore, a unique product on the market pitched in price at the mid point between passive Minus K/Speirs and active Kuraka/Herzan/Accurion (Halcyonics), and with the Kuraka trialled at an ex demo price competitive with the Stacore, and performance commensurate with the Herzan, the trial commenced
All I know is that if the outcome of my trial is anything to go by, I would urge enthusiasts to seek a trial themselves
It might be in other systems and other rooms that active might win out, but in my system and my room, the Stacore is decisively superior
-----------
Regarding broadband isolation, however Stacore are achieving it, it's real and very relevant, and as I say just where you "expect" the Stacore would be inferior (because the specs/data would strongly suggest it), it absolutely is not, despite first impressions being somewhat misleading
And it looks like it's a true blend of the pump isolation, uber mass loading (my stairs! MY BACK!!!), and CLD constrained layer efficacy, that is achieving this
--------------
Re combining active with passive suggested by Murphys33, I'm sure this is trying to replicate Stacore's broadband approach
But since I'm stretched to the limit contemplating Stacore'ing out up to 8 components, it's totally no go for me to even consider for a second a solution 2.5x the price
And to be frank, Taiko Tana works out the same cost wise as Herzan or Accurion plus Symposium Ultra, in an all in one combined product, so why bother?
Cost and other reasons preclude me even thinking about Tana, Mike Lavigne is your man here
All the energy on their explorations in those Herzan threads never mentioned comparisons, just that the Herzan demos slayed their standard racks at the time
And Stacore was not available then, Vibraplane was discontinued, so Herzan had an open goal to aim for
Now we have Stacore, a unique product on the market pitched in price at the mid point between passive Minus K/Speirs and active Kuraka/Herzan/Accurion (Halcyonics), and with the Kuraka trialled at an ex demo price competitive with the Stacore, and performance commensurate with the Herzan, the trial commenced
All I know is that if the outcome of my trial is anything to go by, I would urge enthusiasts to seek a trial themselves
It might be in other systems and other rooms that active might win out, but in my system and my room, the Stacore is decisively superior
-----------
Regarding broadband isolation, however Stacore are achieving it, it's real and very relevant, and as I say just where you "expect" the Stacore would be inferior (because the specs/data would strongly suggest it), it absolutely is not, despite first impressions being somewhat misleading
And it looks like it's a true blend of the pump isolation, uber mass loading (my stairs! MY BACK!!!), and CLD constrained layer efficacy, that is achieving this
--------------
Re combining active with passive suggested by Murphys33, I'm sure this is trying to replicate Stacore's broadband approach
But since I'm stretched to the limit contemplating Stacore'ing out up to 8 components, it's totally no go for me to even consider for a second a solution 2.5x the price
And to be frank, Taiko Tana works out the same cost wise as Herzan or Accurion plus Symposium Ultra, in an all in one combined product, so why bother?
Cost and other reasons preclude me even thinking about Tana, Mike Lavigne is your man here
I am unaware that Vibraplane was ever discontinued. Where did you hear that?
My mistake?
I thought it's n/a
Sorry to misinform
Tbh, a continued story I hear re Vibraplane is of maintenance issues on used items, and beside that I suspect it might be impossible to trial in the UK (I only trialled Stacore w the promise of sale or return)
Peter, maybe you need to ask Mike and Christian why they didn't a/b the Herzan against the Vibraplane, I can't offer any hard facts here, but I'm surmising they were sold on the sub 1Hz isolation data on active lab grade platforms, and their choice was Herzan, or nothing at all
And I put it to you that the Vibraplane has the same deficit in relation to Stacore that active platforms have too
That is, it's a lab device w no pretensions for audio use, and no ground up design w audio use solely in mind
So it's a series of pumps (like Stacore) with a straightforward steel chassis (unlike Stacore)
And according to Jarek, the air pumps start the isolation phenomena off, but the constrained layer tech, mass loading, and Rollerball lateral isolating seperate top plate, with whatever "secret sauce" mix of materials they're using, is where the real magic and superior performance comes in
Please don't take my comments as disrespectful to Vibraplane, I'm just trying to read between the lines/join the dots
I thought it's n/a
Sorry to misinform
Tbh, a continued story I hear re Vibraplane is of maintenance issues on used items, and beside that I suspect it might be impossible to trial in the UK (I only trialled Stacore w the promise of sale or return)
Peter, maybe you need to ask Mike and Christian why they didn't a/b the Herzan against the Vibraplane, I can't offer any hard facts here, but I'm surmising they were sold on the sub 1Hz isolation data on active lab grade platforms, and their choice was Herzan, or nothing at all
And I put it to you that the Vibraplane has the same deficit in relation to Stacore that active platforms have too
That is, it's a lab device w no pretensions for audio use, and no ground up design w audio use solely in mind
So it's a series of pumps (like Stacore) with a straightforward steel chassis (unlike Stacore)
And according to Jarek, the air pumps start the isolation phenomena off, but the constrained layer tech, mass loading, and Rollerball lateral isolating seperate top plate, with whatever "secret sauce" mix of materials they're using, is where the real magic and superior performance comes in
Please don't take my comments as disrespectful to Vibraplane, I'm just trying to read between the lines/join the dots
I had 8 years experience with the Rockport Sirius III, which uses an integral active leveling air bladder passive device similar to the Vibraplane 'active' leveling version. so I had a pretty good feel for what it did compared to what the Herzan did as I had the NVS sitting next to the Rockport without the Herzan. and I've had numerous other passive devices such as mag-lev shelves and various footers in my system since.
but not a Stacore.
I do have the Symposium Svelte Shelf on top of my dart pre (which sits on a Herzan), then the Select II dac and power supply stacked on top of the Svelte Shelf. I use it more as a Faraday cage to eliminate EMI/RF noise from the dacs into my phono stage circuits, but likely it does a nice broadband resonance reduction assist too.
I think that the technology of various active devices such as the Kuraka does vary. on the surface one might assume they all have equal effect, but unless you actually compared them you might not know. I wonder who makes the Kuraka? maybe it is OEM Halcyonics?
Mike,
Kurashiki Kako has been a world leader in anti-vibration technology for over 50 years. I was not very familiar but a review of their web site was very informative.
https://www.kuraka.co.jp/en/
I downloaded their "Stable" series catalogue from the general website above (called kurashiki nanotech_stable_en.pdf.) It was a wealth of easily understood technology on the advantages and disadvantages of multiple forms of anti-vibration isolation. It discusses for example, the requirements for horizontal and vertical isolation separately and distinctly.
For a lab rat like me, it was uber informative. Their technologies cover the gamut from passive to active and they appear to make something akin to the Herzan/Accurion active devices.
It would be nice to know their cost, although I doubt there are any bargains here. I'd also have to wonder about service should one need it outside of Japan. Still, a remarkably informative website.
Marty
Marty, this Kuraka indeed has the data to back it up as a worthy alternative to Herzan
And indeed, the Kuraka had so many of the positives my Accurion/Halcyonics trial from three years back had (I have an autistic-like "talent" for accurate recollection of demos), so I'm making a reasonable assumption a Herzan in the room wouldn't bring more to the party
So I'm confident that the Stacore is indeed by far the better alternative for me, and maybe many other enthusiasts
Cost wise, Kuraka approx same as Herzan and Accurion, approx 40% more than Stacore Adv, 50% more than Stacore Basic Plus
Stacore a no brainer, performance AND cost
And indeed, the Kuraka had so many of the positives my Accurion/Halcyonics trial from three years back had (I have an autistic-like "talent" for accurate recollection of demos), so I'm making a reasonable assumption a Herzan in the room wouldn't bring more to the party
So I'm confident that the Stacore is indeed by far the better alternative for me, and maybe many other enthusiasts
Cost wise, Kuraka approx same as Herzan and Accurion, approx 40% more than Stacore Adv, 50% more than Stacore Basic Plus
Stacore a no brainer, performance AND cost
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Active tabletops are not exactly a new product, but as sensors and actuators become easily available to developers we can expect the appearance of new models and perhaps a reduction of prices . See for example this article from a recent issue of MicroscopyToday.
. See for example this article from a recent issue of MicroscopyToday.Attachments
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a1.jpg
Everstill is made by TMC, another long-time leader in the field of anti-vibration gear for the lab. What I want to know is when we will see this stuff at Target or K-Mart? Maybe then I will be able to afford it!
Need to try one myself, as they are local to me. They actually offered to borrow me one when we last spoke in Munich.
Maybe this time I will not be the last one to learn about a killer local product (as was the case with Lampizator - I was one of the last to try it).
Marty, so effective are the Stacores, but so serious is the investment intended to go to a maximum of 8 platforms, that I've made a strategic decision to put off major components upgrades, esp incl new spkrs, to enable me to focus on a direction that I truly believe along w the room acoustics, power grid and judicious upgrades of pwr cords to Sablon Reserva Elites, will wring the last 10% out of my system w progressive dropping of noise floor and elimination of remaining midbass bloat
Adam, just do it
But a major word of warning
DISENGAGE the stock rubber feet of yr Lampi (or any other gear)
They totally sabotage the potential impvts
I'm using hard metal footers, ie Symposium footers (not the Rollerblocks), and it's a match made in Heaven
Any component must make a non compliant contact w the Stacore, and Stacore non compliant w the floor, to engender maximum benefit
I believe Stacore may stretch to CLD footers add ons in future
But a major word of warning
DISENGAGE the stock rubber feet of yr Lampi (or any other gear)
They totally sabotage the potential impvts
I'm using hard metal footers, ie Symposium footers (not the Rollerblocks), and it's a match made in Heaven
Any component must make a non compliant contact w the Stacore, and Stacore non compliant w the floor, to engender maximum benefit
I believe Stacore may stretch to CLD footers add ons in future
Adam, yes the top slate plate of the Advanced indeed is on Rollers, but the component itself must really not have a compliant contact
It'll be the difference between success and failure
I believe Jarek's colourful term was rubber footers "castrate" the Stacore!
So, floor or absolutely inert spiked stand (with no integral wobble, Rogoz good, my Symposium bad) > Stacore > hard footer > component
It'll be the difference between success and failure
I believe Jarek's colourful term was rubber footers "castrate" the Stacore!
So, floor or absolutely inert spiked stand (with no integral wobble, Rogoz good, my Symposium bad) > Stacore > hard footer > component
I've found that BDR (Black Diamond Racing) cones, either side up, eliminates any footer compliance without adding it's own signature. and they have rounded points so won't harm surfaces. and their weight capacity is in a hifi sense unlimited. for me they bypass all the stock footers I encounter without tuning worry. they are just tall enough so they get the stock footer off the shelf.
Ah, you got me! But they were 30 cents on the dollar (retail). When some of these units get to that cost level, I'll consider them.
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