A world first? Passive v active isolation platforms test

spiritofmusic · Nov 1, 2017

Theophile, yes I’m indeed finding this.
It looks like the floor here is a more variable factor than my one back in London.
In London I lived in a converted factory loft apartment block, where the floors were truly solid and unyielding, reinforced concrete and uber solid wood.
Here, there is a lot more flex, being Victorian joists, and this roof structure never housing a domestic room in the 150 yrs Plus of its existence.
I believe it’s this plus the crazy span my room sits on ie 50’ x 35’ which means that the Stacores are proving so much more useful and practical than I could have envisaged.

spiritofmusic · Nov 1, 2017

Tang, what is “neutral”? Indeed a very good question. And ask 101 audiophiles you’ll get 1001 answers.
For me it means the ability to notice the system less and the performance more, and absolutely no enhancement of resonance bands to massage the playback in euphoric ways.
So, while I’ve found Stillpoints and Shun Mooks to present interesting positives, both fail my neutrality test, because they both enhance certain frequencies to make the presentation more pleasing, or to offset other negatives but still go on to impose their character on the music.
Stillpoints were easy to pick up, Mooks took a while longer.
Tang, in a characterful system like mine ie tube amps, tone dense full range speakers ie the very antithesis of a more analytical SS/Magico type sound, the need for more neutrality in my sound is a big positive.

theophile · Nov 1, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
Theophile, yes I’m indeed finding this.
It looks like the floor here is a more variable factor than my one back in London.
In London I lived in a converted factory loft apartment block, where the floors were truly solid and unyielding, reinforced concrete and uber solid wood.
Here, there is a lot more flex, being Victorian joists, and this roof structure never housing a domestic room in the 150 yrs Plus of its existence.
I believe it’s this plus the crazy span my room sits on ie 50’ x 35’ which means that the Stacores are proving so much more useful and practical than I could have envisaged.

spirit,
The floor under my isolation is concrete slab, yet I still find that the sound I achieve with regard to my isolation support interacts with the component atop the support. We are dabbling our toes in a vast ocean which begs to be fully explored.

I have proved to myself that the process of isolation can be a combination of the benefits of isolation along with a modification of the sound of the component. You have experienced the benefits of isolation. Now you are experiencing the manner in which your isolation platform is interacting with/modifying the sound of your component. Both can take place simultaneously.

I posted about being able to tune the sound of my isolation support at the AudioKarma site. It goes over the heads of most people because they haven't carried out my experimentation. You are carrying out experiments now. You are honestly reporting your findings. I understand your observations. I cannot explain the mechanisms of why this occurs, but I can confirm that your observations are true and honest.

I actually feel that some isolation methods only rely on the modification of the sound aspect and essentially fail to properly isolate. A pleasing euphonic modification of resonance which meets which consumers approval.

I feel that there are no true 'one size fits all' isolation solutions. Success, I feel, lies in having a method which is able to achieve the goal by optimisation of the isolation method. The basis I feel of optimisation comes from matching the load to the isolation method and getting the component's center of gravity evenly carried by the individual isolation elements(which in my case are comprised of the individual mag-lev pieces and the cups and balls). Too many people are satisfied to purchase and own a particular method but seem to think that there is no further work required on their part other than placing the audio component atop.

I have had posted on other sites and had contributors to my threads on this subject dismiss center of gravity as unimportant, but I promise you they could not be further from the truth. The designers of rockets will tell you that if they do not take this very important factor into account there will never be success and only be disaster. Designers and engineers of racing cars know how important it is and work very hard to design everything around it. If they fail there will only be disaster. Isolation needs to factor it in also, yet I know of only one audio designer who speaks about this. It is perhaps the case that others know and don't want to reveal the advantage they have over their competitors.

spiritofmusic · Nov 1, 2017

Ron, Jarek didn’t have any preference, or if he did wouldn’t reveal it so as not to bias me.
The standard plastic have been wonderful anyway, otherwise I wouldn’t have decided to keep the Stacore.
But Jarek has always felt that more solid direct interface of platform with floor could provide performance benefits, hence the choice of footers.
—
To be more accurate, these are not footers, but end caps that screw into the existing substantial fixed pods that the Stacore uses to sit in the floor.
“Simple” button like thin discs with integral thread that screw securely into the integral pods.
This is pretty neat, because Jarek could experiment with any hard materials and these caps can be easily retrofitted to the Stacore platform.

BMCG · Nov 1, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
But Jarek has always felt that more solid direct interface of platform with floor could provide performance benefits, hence the choice of footers.
—
To be more accurate, these are not footers, but end caps that screw into the existing substantial fixed pods that the Stacore uses to sit in the floor.
“Simple” button like thin discs with integral thread that screw securely into the integral pods.
This is pretty neat, because Jarek could experiment with any hard materials and these caps can be easily retrofitted to the Stacore platform.

From an engineering point of view it is rarely the bulk that merits most attention....rather the "interest" lies at the interfaces..

So am not surprised at the importance of getting the connecting elements right..

which if draw down to the fundamentals is the continuation of a theme...

namely how to diminish/minimise mechanical noise propagation/creation....

spiritofmusic · Nov 1, 2017

BMCG, you’re 100% right, based on my experiences here.
95kg of already overperforming SOTA isolation platform taken on another 50% by a few grams of footers end caps you wouldn’t even notice in your pocket LOL!

Stacore · Nov 1, 2017

Hey guys,

If I my chime in. First of all, the credits and a big thanks for this little big mod go to Marc! Contrary to what he says, it was him who asked me if a hard coupling to the floor is an option. I've then only chosen the right type of steel and added the washer in an attempt to damp it /titanium we can also try but I'm not sure how well damped it is/. I felt that something can be won at this interface, but my own ides where then concentrated around plastics and I thought the natural teflon would win. Well...surprise! Actually a big one as it goes sort of against my theories. I've been expressing here many times my concerns about a double compliance systems with similar natural frequencies as they may go into beat oscillations (suspensions exciting one another). But the compliance, and the natural frequency, of a plastic cap is about two orders of magnitude different from a pumped air bladder. Still, it seems to interfere somehow! On the other side, we once tested a suspended TT with a similar natural frequency to our platform and it did work very well. Go figure...

As for the equipment/platform interface brought about by Ron, already many auditions ago we figured out that rubber feet compromise the performance quite a lot (and again a rubber feet compliance is about an order of magnitude different from the pumped platform). So we developed our own footers combining steel and slate in a constrained layer damping arrangement. The idea here is to have a low impedance coupling to the equipment chassis on one side and a low impedance path to our platform on the other, with a viscoelastic damping in between. Below is a prototype made for Lampizator's Pacific DAC (hence brass). We will soon make the steel ones and start testing.

One last remark: Our platforms are pneumatic of course, not hydraulic. We use air, not liquids

Cheers,

spiritofmusic · Nov 1, 2017

Sorry Jarek, my bad.
Pneumatic, yes.

Stacore · Nov 1, 2017

theophile said:
You should find it fascinating. I've been experimenting with a combination of mag-lev and cup and ball for over 10 years now. Depending on: 1) The load. 2) The position of the load. I can 'tune' the sound I get. Much the way that you are finding that you can tune the sound with the footers and pucks. It is fascinating and by the same token infuriating. The mystery of how turntables interact with the surface they sit-on. The surface that the item(ie the turntable) is sitting on, the surface that the support sits on and the structure of the building are intertwined. Very few people even believe these effects are possible, let alone take any time to investigate them, let alone take the time to attempt to optimise this situation.

What's Best is one of the few sites where I can discuss this without a horde of trolls coming to attack. It takes a very good system to reveal these effects, but at the level of a very good system, it is obvious that these effects need to be taken into account.

Oh yeah, one more thing. After 10 years(and more) I have much improved sound quality, but if you think that I have gotten to the bottom of what is taking place.......

Could not agree more. When I first suspended my TT on a platform of my design, I was listening on headphones. There were no other vibrations than structure born (building, floor, furniture, etc). The effect was immediate and huge - like taking cotton out of ears.

Cheers,

PeterA · Nov 1, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
Francisco, the Stacores are a combination isolation platform, in my system the mix providing a definite performance upstick over active platforms.
95kg mass loading, predominately from slate (main chassis plus additional top shelf), constrained layer materials (slate plus undisclosed secret sauce), 3 hydraulic pumps, Rollerball-type isolation btwn chassis and top shelf.

Marc, I thought the Stacore is pneumatic (using air under pressure) much like my Vibraplane rather than hydraulic (using liquid under pressure). You keep writing that it is hydraulic. Can you clarify? If it is indeed hydraulic as you claim, what liquid is being pressurized to isolate the Stacore top surface from vibrations coming up the rack?

It is indeed fascinating to consider that different material 1mm thick footers on the opposite side of the isolation from the component being isolated can effect the sound of the component so dramatically. I guess it is a kind of pre filter effecting the frequency of the vibrations going up into the Stacore itself. This would suggest to me that the Stacore is not as much of a broad band isolation device as previously thought.

Perhaps Jarek could address this.

spiritofmusic · Nov 1, 2017

Already covered Peter, my mistake.
Pneumatic.
I’ll correct my previous posts.

PeterA · Nov 1, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
Tang, what is “neutral”? Indeed a very good question. And ask 101 audiophiles you’ll get 1001 answers.
For me it means the ability to notice the system less and the performance more, and absolutely no enhancement of resonance bands to massage the playback in euphoric ways.
So, while I’ve found Stillpoints and Shun Mooks to present interesting positives, both fail my neutrality test, because they both enhance certain frequencies to make the presentation more pleasing, or to offset other negatives but still go on to impose their character on the music.
Stillpoints were easy to pick up, Mooks took a while longer.
Tang, in a characterful system like mine ie tube amps, tone dense full range speakers ie the very antithesis of a more analytical SS/Magico type sound, the need for more neutrality in my sound is a big positive.

I would hesitate to make such sweeping generalizations. Not only do Magico's different lines of speakers sound quite different, so do SS amplifiers like the Pass XA.5 and Spectral or Dartzeel. Of course it also depends on how you define analytical, but I, and others, would not describe the sound of my example of the SS/Magico sound as sterile, analytical, lacking tonal density, warmth, body, what have you.

I agree with you that there are different interpretations of the term "neutral". I tend to think of it in terms of tonal balance or a fairly smooth frequency response. We may both try to attain a neutral sound from our respective systems but I suspect our systems sound quite different from each other.

Stacore · Nov 1, 2017

PeterA said:
Marc, I thought the Stacore is pneumatic (using air under pressure) much like my Vibraplane rather than hydraulic (using liquid under pressure). You keep writing that it is hydraulic. Can you clarify? If it is indeed hydraulic as you claim, what liquid is being pressurized to isolate the Stacore top surface from vibrations coming up the rack?

It is indeed fascinating to consider that different material 1mm thick footers on the opposite side of the isolation from the component being isolated can effect the sound of the component so dramatically. I guess it is a kind of pre filter effecting the frequency of the vibrations going up into the Stacore itself. This would suggest to me that the Stacore is not as much of a broad band isolation device as previously thought.

Perhaps Jarek could address this.

Hey Peter!

1) We are pneumatic of course. Marc must have confused our suspension with the one in his beautiful Citroen

2) Our platform is a mix of several damping/isolating techniques as one solution cannot give it all no matter what you do. It is now a question how to combine those solutions so that they work best. My initial idea, implemented in our current platforms, was exactly like you say - prefilter at least something before the air bladders, so that less is transmitted higher up. That's why we were using industrial damping plastic, then experimented with the teflon. But it turned out that this prefiltering idea is not the optimal, at least not always and it seems beneficial to let the >50Hz vibs hit the bladder and then the CLD slate. It's a question of optimizing various elements to give the best broadband isolation. We will offer as a standard both hard teflon and the steel caps for the user to choose the best interface.

Cheers,

spiritofmusic · Nov 1, 2017

Peter, yes.
Amend that to the kind of generic tonally cooler, detail driven, high power SS/medium efficiency multidriver tower spkrs that kind of leave me impressed but unmoved, usually at shows.
Prime example being KEF Muons being driven by a stack of Mark Levinsons at a UK show last year.
For me, this is not the definition of a neutral sound I subscribe too.
Relentless resolution with pinpoint imaging and overpowerful bass is as far from neutral as I’d consider.
My signature of reflecting a darker denser lower mids/upper bass presentation is probably as far from neutral as a ML/Muon fan would feel.
What the Stacores are doing, especially with one now having the metal footer end caps/Teflon washers combination is to ground the music more, cutting out euphoric bloom and tightening the whole presentation, all the while in effect revealing more natural warmth and a real energy in the upper mids/treble that was definitely more muted before.
Unlike Stillpoints where I felt a certain hardness, and unwelcome tizzy energy higher up was introduced, and Shun Mooks where a kind of all pervading lower midband warmth was introduced, both approaches homogenising the sound off every disc I tried.
Stacores/footers metal end caps with Teflon washers reveal more colour and energy with no favouring anything in the frequency response.

Stacore · Nov 1, 2017

theophile said:
spirit,
The floor under my isolation is concrete slab, yet I still find that the sound I achieve with regard to my isolation support interacts with the component atop the support. We are dabbling our toes in a vast ocean which begs to be fully explored.

I have proved to myself that the process of isolation can be a combination of the benefits of isolation along with a modification of the sound of the component. You have experienced the benefits of isolation. Now you are experiencing the manner in which your isolation platform is interacting with/modifying the sound of your component. Both can take place simultaneously.

I posted about being able to tune the sound of my isolation support at the AudioKarma site. It goes over the heads of most people because they haven't carried out my experimentation. You are carrying out experiments now. You are honestly reporting your findings. I understand your observations. I cannot explain the mechanisms of why this occurs, but I can confirm that your observations are true and honest.

I actually feel that some isolation methods only rely on the modification of the sound aspect and essentially fail to properly isolate. A pleasing euphonic modification of resonance which meets which consumers approval.

I feel that there are no true 'one size fits all' isolation solutions. Success, I feel, lies in having a method which is able to achieve the goal by optimisation of the isolation method. The basis I feel of optimisation comes from matching the load to the isolation method and getting the component's center of gravity evenly carried by the individual isolation elements(which in my case are comprised of the individual mag-lev pieces and the cups and balls). Too many people are satisfied to purchase and own a particular method but seem to think that there is no further work required on their part other than placing the audio component atop.

I have had posted on other sites and had contributors to my threads on this subject dismiss center of gravity as unimportant, but I promise you they could not be further from the truth. The designers of rockets will tell you that if they do not take this very important factor into account there will never be success and only be disaster. Designers and engineers of racing cars know how important it is and work very hard to design everything around it. If they fail there will only be disaster. Isolation needs to factor it in also, yet I know of only one audio designer who speaks about this. It is perhaps the case that others know and don't want to reveal the advantage they have over their competitors.

Very nice thoughts Theo!

Contrary to what people think, concrete is a very good vibration conductor and is very poorly damped. It provides mass but little damping (unless extra measures are taken when preparing it).

Isolation vs sound modification - a very delicate and difficult issue. On one hand a proper isolation can optimize the performance of a component. So one perceives a modified sound but indeed it is the sound of the component. On the other hand, no iso device is 100% transparent, so to some extent it is always in the mix.

Center of mass - shame to admit for a physicist, but I realized its importance in the component placing not that long ago. Before I was just interested in an even load distr over the support points. But a quick aha moment and you realize that the CM must be in the most "quiet" place on the platform (in our case the geometric center).

Cheers,

spiritofmusic · Nov 1, 2017

Jarek, my comments on neutrality open up more qs than answers.
Ie why should what I hear via yr Stacore w the footer mods be neutral whereas I don’t feel that w the other footers I’ve tried.
I guess I really feel I’m hearing “thru” the music, and more evenly top to bottom. Energy but not at the expense of warmth. Transparency and resolution, but not at the expense of flow.
I’ve really been listening intently to try and pick up lack of evenhandedness anywhere in the presentation, but I’m failing to find any bias. It’s all providing a real open window/clear mirror to proceedings. All the moreso now w these footers end cap additions.

Stacore · Nov 1, 2017

Marc, I can only say that from the beginning we have made a conscious attempt to design towards neutrality. Hence all the hassle with the slate, its damping and the mass. Perfect neutrality is of course a utopia, but I think we are pretty good

Cheers,

spiritofmusic · Nov 1, 2017

Well Jarek, the fact that Stacore comprehensively best active Kuraka in my room is the biggest accolade of all.
In my humble opinion, all those deciding by default to go active could do w reassessing their options.

theophile · Nov 3, 2017

PeterA said:
Marc, I thought the Stacore is pneumatic (using air under pressure) much like my Vibraplane rather than hydraulic (using liquid under pressure). You keep writing that it is hydraulic. Can you clarify? If it is indeed hydraulic as you claim, what liquid is being pressurized to isolate the Stacore top surface from vibrations coming up the rack?

It is indeed fascinating to consider that different material 1mm thick footers on the opposite side of the isolation from the component being isolated can effect the sound of the component so dramatically. I guess it is a kind of pre filter effecting the frequency of the vibrations going up into the Stacore itself. This would suggest to me that the Stacore is not as much of a broad band isolation device as previously thought.

Perhaps Jarek could address this.

See post # 307 above.

spiritofmusic · Nov 3, 2017

One could say the same thing about Herzan, why are audiophiles seeking to strip out the onboard psus and upgrade them?
I mean if stock is good enough for labs and their needs, it’s going to be more than enough for our needs.
The truth is that the synergy of factors that adds to our perception of impvd sound is part science and part black magic.
So yes, a Herzan or a Stacore is plenty good enough and surely can’t measure any better with an impvd psu or an impvd set of footer end caps.
But even better is indeed the result in both.

A world first? Passive v active isolation platforms test

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