A world first? Passive v active isolation platforms test

Stacore · Aug 28, 2017

853guy said:
While I have the greatest respect for your willingness to post here - and especially, the down-to-Earth and open-minded way in which you articulate your thoughts - my suspicion is that we are possibly still well short of a single isolation/damping/energy transfer mechanism/methodology that will give equivalent benefits across all components and all systems. Nevertheless, a willingness on behalf of manufacturers like yourself to share combinations of greatest efficacy, and perhaps as importantly, those of least efficacy, may provide us with data to better understand (though of course, not “know”) ahead of time which solutions are potentially most likely to confer benefits that are predictable, rather than the gamble that many of us currently take, calling it “experimenting” to intellectually soften the blow.

What I have noticed so far is that following mother Nature gives fairy predictable results. One example is mass.
By the Newton's 3rd law, high mass => low acceleration for a given force. So this is one of the most simple vibration
damping methods and I suspect for some frequency regions basically the only
(BTW old optical tables weighted several tones to bring vibration amplitudes down to nanometers).
It is sometimes criticized and dismissed as "big mass storing vibration and releasing them back". While I'm yet to see a reasonable explanation
of what proponents of this thesis exactly mean (I have my own suspicions),
I know that this mass must be a quality mass, meaning high internal damping.
Otherwise indeed by solving one problem (e.g. taming bass feedback) one can create another (say mids smearing or HF ringing).
But if properly implemented, this method just works by pure physics.

Cheers,

theophile · Aug 28, 2017

Stacore said:
David, it's a huge pleasure to hear that! You are an audiophile legend for me and not only for me.
While I would be careful with super heavy mass TT's, I'm quite positive I could challenge
the Schwingrahmen on your EMT927. Actually, my whole approach to vibration control was born when I refused to
pay the $$$ for a Schwingrahmen for my EMT930 to the "EMT gang"

BTW, in your heavy mass TT experiments, did you try oversiffening the Kinetics tables I can see in your pics and placing the TT
exactly at the geometrical center of the isolation table?

Cheers,

Jarek

Excuse me if I probe a bit on the relevance of placing an item "exactly at the geometric center of the isolation table". In my experiments with turntable isolation I have found two things which either interfere with or optimise the performance of my isolation platform; The total mass of the object being placed upon it and the center of gravity of that mass needing to be aligned centrally to the means of vertical isolation.

Where the mass interacts with the method used by being either too light or too heavy, I've found that the isolation method(which is a fixed constant) is unable to isolate optimally. Also if the center of gravity of the item being isolated is not being borne by the individual elements that make up the isolation evenly(ie if the COG of the item being place upon it is off center) I also have found that this compromises the result. This is why your comment about the "exact geometric center" have made me sit up and take notice.

spiritofmusic · Aug 28, 2017

Theophile, this consideration was a big reason why I couldn't get on w the Minus K.
Other than needing to mass load the platform meaning the loading material caused some overt character and "ringing", I could never load the platform optimally
With weight of centre of platter/motor/cantilevered arm pod/assymetric feet/phono/phono psu all in different positions, no way was I going to get centre of gravity sorted.

Stacore · Aug 28, 2017

theophile said:
Jarek

Excuse me if I probe a bit on the relevance of placing an item "exactly at the geometric center of the isolation table". In my experiments with turntable isolation I have found two things which either interfere with or optimise the performance of my isolation platform; The total mass of the object being placed upon it and the center of gravity of that mass needing to be aligned centrally to the means of vertical isolation.

Where the mass interacts with the method used by being either too light or too heavy, I've found that the isolation method(which is a fixed constant) is unable to isolate optimally. Also if the center of gravity of the item being isolated is not being borne by the individual elements that make up the isolation evenly(ie if the COG of the item being place upon it is off center) I also have found that this compromises the result. This is why your comment about the "exact geometric center" have made me sit up and take notice.

Dear Theophile,

Indeed I just put vaguely "TT over the geometric center" without specifying what I mean not to bore people.
The idea is to try placing a heavy platter TT in such a way as to minimize rocking of the platter in the bearing
during the suspension operation. A desirable thing in general, as you point out,
I suspect it may become critical with high mass platters: Keeping the stiffness of the bearing with high mass and
sideways rocking looks like a challenge (as pro bearing specialists tell me, at our rotation speeds all the bearings are
static...unfortunately).

Cheers,
Jarek

theophile · Aug 28, 2017

I feel that 'one size fits all' isolation platforms are a compromise and that proper isolation requires additional effort to fine tune the load and ensure that the isolating elements are bearing the required mass which puts the isolation frequency at the optimum point. Center of Gravity plays a role here and I see no isolation manufacturer who places any stress on this factor.

There is an entire consideration which is being overlooked by both the industry as a whole and the consumers who don't want to put any effort in other than selecting, buying and arranging things in a manner that prioritises visual aesthetics over optimisng placement.

Stacore · Aug 28, 2017

What can I say? I wish I could offer custom isolation for each and every specific component. But its a utopia commercially.
At the moment we prepare to offer additional slate CLD loading plates to be used with lightweight equipment.

Cheers,
Jarek

Mike Lavigne · Aug 28, 2017

theophile said:
I feel that 'one size fits all' isolation platforms are a compromise and that proper isolation requires additional effort to fine tune the load and ensure that the isolating elements are bearing the required mass which puts the isolation frequency at the optimum point. Center of Gravity plays a role here and I see no isolation manufacturer who places any stress on this factor.

There is an entire consideration which is being overlooked by both the industry as a whole and the consumers who don't want to put any effort in other than selecting, buying and arranging things in a manner that prioritises visual aesthetics over optimisng placement.

well......if you investigate the websites of the active isolation products such as Herzan, they go to great lengths to explain the proper environment and optimal use processes for their products aimed at the industrial/scientific sector. we can choose to ignore those, but they are there to learn from.

and they even offer the services to do a site evaluation to increase the effectiveness of their products.

certainly the approach of us as individuals varies, but some do pay close attention to these things to optimize these products.

theophile · Aug 28, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
well......if you investigate the websites of the active isolation products such as Herzan, they go to great lengths to explain the proper environment and optimal use processes for their products aimed at the industrial/scientific sector. we can choose to ignore those, but they are there to learn from.

and they even offer the services to do a site evaluation to increase the effectiveness of their products.

certainly the approach of us as individuals varies, but some do pay close attention to these things to optimize these products.

Mike I have much more esteem for those products aimed at industrial buyers than those aimed at audiophile buyers. Industry needs to get it right and quickly weeds-out those items which are all puff and little substance. Audiophiles seem generally to be swayed more by fashion and fantasy. Which is a shame. The reviewers sweep so much under the carpet that they obfuscate more than enlighten.

ddk · Aug 28, 2017

Stacore said:
David, it's a huge pleasure to hear that! You are an audiophile legend for me and not only for me.
While I would be careful with super heavy mass TT's, I'm quite positive I could challenge
the Schwingrahmen on your EMT927. Actually, my whole approach to vibration control was born when I refused to
pay the $$$ for a Schwingrahmen for my EMT930 to the "EMT gang"

BTW, in your heavy mass TT experiments, did you try oversiffening the Kinetics tables I can see in your pics and placing the TT
exactly at the geometrical center of the isolation table?

Cheers,

Hi Jarek,
Definitely not a legend! You probably can challenge EMT's heavy base specially later versions which aren't quite as good as the early version but they were also designed for a different purpose than your platforms. The version for 927 is mostly to add mass rather than vibration control, I've also modified it very slightly to couple with the heavy table under it.

I have removed all plumbing from the kinetics tables not using the air for the tts and tightened all the screws so the base won't sway. I'm using these tables for their mass and not air cushioning. I find that air like everything else has a particular quality and sound and with my tts is an additive coloration which I don't want. Also I couldn't find the right air pressure, too much and the sound tightens up special in the bass where it sounds unnatural to me and too little air sound becomes muddy but just right with no air. But electronics benefited a lot from the air cushion including CD transports.

david

Stacore · Aug 29, 2017

Hi David!

ddk said:
You probably can challenge EMT's heavy base specially later versions which aren't quite as good as the early version but they were also designed for a different purpose than your platforms. The version for 927 is mostly to add mass rather than vibration control, I've also modified it very slightly to couple with the heavy table under it.

That's interesting what you say. I had an impression that the shock frame for both 930 and 927 was primarly to control vibrations, esp. in field conditions.
I'm talking about this: http://www.g-t-i.de/page.php?lang=de&page=new_shockframe
As for adding mass, my 930 is in a slate plinth with very good results.

ddk said:
I have removed all plumbing from the kinetics tables not using the air for the tts and tightened all the screws so the base won't sway. I'm using these tables for their mass and not air cushioning. I find that air like everything else has a particular quality and sound and with my tts is an additive coloration which I don't want. Also I couldn't find the right air pressure, too much and the sound tightens up special in the bass where it sounds unnatural to me and too little air sound becomes muddy but just right with no air. But electronics benefited a lot from the air cushion including CD transports.

david

Yes, heavy mass TT sound like a challenge for suspensions as I explained talking to Theophile above.
I'm wondering what just roller bearings alone, without air cushions would do for such TT.
In our experience (and not only ours as Marc reports here as well) CD transports do benefit a lot
for a proper vib control, which keeps astonishing me given MB's of cach, tripple laser beams, advanced software
error correction etc etc.

BTW, it sounds like you also know the power of physics and are using mass to control vibrations

All the best,

Stacore · Aug 29, 2017

theophile said:
Mike I have much more esteem for those products aimed at industrial buyers than those aimed at audiophile buyers. Industry needs to get it right and quickly weeds-out those items which are all puff and little substance. Audiophiles seem generally to be swayed more by fashion and fantasy. Which is a shame. The reviewers sweep so much under the carpet that they obfuscate more than enlighten.

Strangely enough, we do receive quite some attention from science people.
Being an active scientist myself, I send them to specialized lab equipment vendors,
explaining that our rather expensive CLD slate body is hardly necessary for them,
but the last guy I talked to from Switzerland insisted that AFM's are sensitive in kHz
region as well as in ULF (which I always thought to be the case). We plan to explore
that direction too.

Another question, which has already been discussed here esp. with Marc is
if and how measurement data of equipment correlate with the sound.
My bottom line, and the motivating power behind Stacore, is that in scientific equipment
one looks to max out one, maybe two parameters, as this is what is needed. But sound perception is
an infinitely dimensional problem... (I tried to put my loose thoughts here: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ther-listeners&p=466014&viewfull=1#post466014 )

Cheers,

ddk · Aug 29, 2017

Stacore said:
Hi David!

That's interesting what you say. I had an impression that the shock frame for both 930 and 927 was primarly to control vibrations, esp. in field conditions.
I'm talking about this: http://www.g-t-i.de/page.php?lang=de&page=new_shockframe
As for adding mass, my 930 is in a slate plinth with very good results.

These are 3rd party design and there's nothing in their frames to absorb any kind of vibration but they're good for adding mass but your slate plinth is probably much better. The original EMT base for the 930 was a different design, basically it was a suspension for roaming DJs so they could install their 930s in the back of a van and drive around town, 927 had Neuman type console the heavy base is something developed much later.

Stacore said:
Yes, heavy mass TT sound like a challenge for suspensions as I explained talking to Theophile above.
I'm wondering what just roller bearings alone, without air cushions would do for such TT.

Ha ha ha roller bearings, you're funny Jarek! I'm sure there's a bigger load of rubbish than roller balls but they're right at the top of that list for me. I can see it now all that mass and inertia doing the Jiggy on top of rolling balls I'm sure it will do wonders for the sound!

Stacore said:
In our experience (and not only ours as Marc reports here as well) CD transports do benefit a lot
for a proper vib control, which keeps astonishing me given MB's of cach, tripple laser beams, advanced software
error correction etc etc.

BTW, it sounds like you also know the power of physics and are using mass to control vibrations

All the best,

CD transports do benefit from vibration control as do tts the difference is in the type of controller.

6th grade physics class

!

david

spiritofmusic · Aug 29, 2017

Luckily guys I'm not interested in those uber high mass tts out there where the designers seem more obsessed w oil rigs than ways to play lps.
More into svelte skinny latte designs like my Trans Fi Salvation, GPA Monaco, Thales, Feickert, PTP Solid 12 etc, and a new one that again is on the understated side.
This means reasonably even load bearing/centre of gravity with a minimum of unusual cantilevering of mass, and a manageable weight of c30kg.
Having already established the active Accurion had only positives to bring w my current tt some years back, I'm 100% positive the Stacore will do at least as well and most probably a lot better.

Stacore · Aug 29, 2017

ddk said:
These are 3rd party design and there's nothing in their frames to absorb any kind of vibration but they're good for adding mass but your slate plinth is probably much better. The original EMT base for the 930 was a different design, basically it was a suspension for roaming DJs so they could install their 930s in the back of a van and drive around town, 927 had Neuman type console the heavy base is something developed much later.

Would be interesting to see the actual pic of your 927 and its base. What I seem to see on your system pics is the usual shock frame.

ddk said:
Ha ha ha roller bearings, you're funny Jarek! I'm sure there's a bigger load of rubbish than roller balls but they're right at the top of that list for me. I can see it now all that mass and inertia doing the Jiggy on top of rolling balls I'm sure it will do wonders for the sound!

Well, not pushing the idea in any way, but I would not dismiss it so easily David. First, properly implemented bearings is a rare view, and for high mass is rare squared.
Second, as a mechanical filter they are peculiar with a strong resonance (the jiggy people usually associate them with) but followed by a very steep roll off meaning they start to
isolate very well right after the resonance. We had some fun recently here in the institute for flow machinery with our Advanced platform plus a hefty linear shaker and a couple of
top notch laser position sensors. The bearings were loaded with 50kg (35kg top plate + 15kg load) but can take 40kg more. The shaker gave a hefty 2mm stroke in the sub-10Hz region, which is a lot compared to normal listening conditions.
Apart from the intentionally pronounced ~2Hz resonance, which indeed was sort of spectacular, the top plate movement was well into sub-mm region.
There was no jiggling. Physics worked again

ddk said:
CD transports do benefit from vibration control as do tts the difference is in the type of controller.

6th grade physics class !

david

Perhaps I'm overseeing something obvious, but having once seen the CD error correction,
I had an impression one can squeeze a couple of PhD's out of it.

Cheers,

ddk · Aug 29, 2017

Stacore said:
Would be interesting to see the actual pic of your 927 and its base. What I seem to see on your system pics is the usual shock frame.

EMT never made a frame for the 927 mine is one of the ones from your link that's why I know what they are. It's exactly the same thing with only a couple of minor changes.

Stacore said:

Well, not pushing the idea in any way, but I would not dismiss it so easily David. First, properly implemented bearings is a rare view, and for high mass is rare squared.
Second, as a mechanical filter they are peculiar with a strong resonance (the jiggy people usually associate them with) but followed by a very steep roll off meaning they start to
isolate very well right after the resonance. We had some fun recently here in the institute for flow machinery with our Advanced platform plus a hefty linear shaker and a couple of
top notch laser position sensors. The bearings were loaded with 50kg (35kg top plate + 15kg load) but can take 40kg more. The shaker gave a hefty 2mm stroke in the sub-10Hz region, which is a lot compared to normal listening conditions.
Apart from the intentionally pronounced ~2Hz resonance, which indeed was sort of spectacular, the top plate movement was well into sub-mm region.
There was no jiggling. Physics worked again

Click to expand...

Between 2000-2002 I ran many experiments with isolation which included tests of roller balls; different materials, different sizes, different number of ball bearings used at a time, different layouts and always changing the materials and thicknesses of the plates they were sandwiched with. I never liked putting the equipment directly on the bearings which always results in a hardening of the sound and emphasis of the same frequencies. At the time I was playing around with Final Labs latest turntable that used roller balls and controlling resonance by combining different materials central to their design too so my comment regarding uselessness of rolling balls comes from that direct experience.

The numbers you're quoting might be of some interest but there are many variables involved in how it translates to sound quality or how does it compare to other strategies with similar numbers in terms of sound? My only point of reference is my past experience so these numbers don't excite me.

Stacore said:

Perhaps I'm overseeing something obvious, but having once seen the CD error correction,
I had an impression one can squeeze a couple of PhD's out of it.

Click to expand...

Careful how hard you squeeze it's still digital!

david

spiritofmusic · Aug 29, 2017

David, Mike Lavigne is having a bit of an epiphany w his 3-box Msb Select II, and I'm having my own w my digital served by Stacore isolation and Sablon Elite pwr cord.
It's really possible to get digital to play on analog's territory of midband and upper bass tone density and texture.
As a long term fanboy for vinyl (the number of people I bored to death about my hate for digital in the 80s is pretty high), I never thought I'd EVER be saying this.
I'll keep squeezing that digital lemon

Stacore · Aug 29, 2017

Hey David,

ddk said:
EMT never made a frame for the 927 mine is one of the ones from your link that's why I know what they are. It's exactly the same thing with only a couple of minor changes

I'm a bit lost. The frame I linked to is the usual shock absorbing frame with steel (?) springs and rubber bands and
it is supposed to "swing" (hence Schwingrahmen name) and give some sort of vibration control.
I seem to see the same frame on your system pics but you say it's just mass with no vib control?
Sorry if I'm being tiresome, but I'm trying to understand your 927 support out of pure interest.

ddk said:
Between 2000-2002 I ran many experiments with isolation which included tests of roller balls; different materials, different sizes, different number of ball bearings used at a time, different layouts and always changing the materials and thicknesses of the plates they were sandwiched with. I never liked putting the equipment directly on the bearings which always results in a hardening of the sound and emphasis of the same frequencies. At the time I was playing around with Final Labs latest turntable that used roller balls and controlling resonance by combining different materials central to their design too so my comment regarding uselessness of rolling balls comes from that direct experience.

The numbers you're quoting might be of some interest but there are many variables involved in how it translates to sound quality or how does it compare to other strategies with similar numbers in terms of sound? My only point of reference is my past experience so these numbers don't excite me.

Ha! Very good! You were not supposed to get excited David but to the opposite! You objected in the previous post about "high mass and inertia doing Jiggy" so
I tried to explain that apart from a narrow, deep ULF band it's very difficult to excite those (roller) balls

This is so to say a basic engineering stability.

The sound if of course infinitely beyond any simple engineering stability and the latter can say close to nothing about the former.
Yes, in my experience they are very tricky and capricious to implement and need a very good deal of a proper damping.
If this is met, instead of the sound hardening you describe (most probably due to ringing deep into kHz region), they actually start to do
something opposite: Calm down the upper mids/HF, simultaneously giving it more vigor and energy when needed. Sort of both
calming down and rising a potential to unleash emotions. Difficult to describe it. This has been my experience at least.

ddk said:
Careful how hard you squeeze it's still digital!

As Marc writes above, which has also been my experience, there is something to be squeezed here and I'm still looking for an explanation why CDP's
benefit so much from a proper vibration control, given all their technology. If anyone can enlighten me, please stand up!

Cheers,

ddk · Aug 30, 2017

Hi Jarek,

Stacore said:
Hey David,

I'm a bit lost. The frame I linked to is the usual shock absorbing frame with steel (?) springs and rubber bands and
it is supposed to "swing" (hence Schwingrahmen name) and give some sort of vibration control.
I seem to see the same frame on your system pics but you say it's just mass with no vib control?
Sorry if I'm being tiresome, but I'm trying to understand your 927 support out of pure interest.

I guess something is getting lost in the keystrokes. Of course it is dealing with vibrations but my instinct is that it's mass rather than the very stiff suspension that's working. The point I was trying to make is that the new bases aren't quite the same as the original EMT design that they're based on.

Note the different springs which have a very different construction and additional suspension in the central posts. The steel tubing was of a different thickness and size too. Sonically its different to the newer versions, I very much doubt that the new bases would be effective at all in the back of a van.

The new version, smaller tubing, very different springs in design and action and no suspension in the center posts.

Stacore said:
Ha! Very good! You were not supposed to get excited David but to the opposite! You objected in the previous post about "high mass and inertia doing Jiggy" so
I tried to explain that apart from a narrow, deep ULF band it's very difficult to excite those (roller) balls This is so to say a basic engineering stability.

The sound if of course infinitely beyond any simple engineering stability and the latter can say close to nothing about the former.
Yes, in my experience they are very tricky and capricious to implement and need a very good deal of a proper damping.
If this is met, instead of the sound hardening you describe (most probably due to ringing deep into kHz region), they actually start to do
something opposite: Calm down the upper mids/HF, simultaneously giving it more vigor and energy when needed. Sort of both
calming down and rising a potential to unleash emotions. Difficult to describe it. This has been my experience at least.

What you call vigor and energy is what I probably see as a shift in balance and hardening of the same frequencies. It's what I hear with most footer that equipment sits directly on. That hardening or vigor is a constant balance change which is an added coloration to the sound which we both hear but our subjective views of it differ.

Stacore said:
As Marc writes above, which has also been my experience, there is something to be squeezed here and I'm still looking for an explanation why CDP's
benefit so much from a proper vibration control, given all their technology. If anyone can enlighten me, please stand up!
Cheers,

I believe that with most CDPs their chassis and drive sections are under-built and don't effectively deal with the vibrations generated by the spinning disc which also effects the laser, I think an effective platform like yours will help drain and absorb some of these vibrations and resonances quieting everything down including the laser and it's circuitry and like a camera lens less vibration equals better focus resulting in sharper and deeper images.

david

Stacore · Aug 30, 2017

Hi David,

ddk said:
I guess something is getting lost in the keystrokes. Of course it is dealing with vibrations but my instinct is that it's mass rather than the very stiff suspension that's working. The point I was trying to make is that the new bases aren't quite the same as the original EMT design that they're based on.

Note the different springs which have a very different construction and additional suspension in the central posts. The steel tubing was of a different thickness and size too. Sonically its different to the newer versions, I very much doubt that the new bases would be effective at all in the back of a van.

The new version, smaller tubing, very different springs in design and action and no suspension in the center posts.

Ok, got the point, thank you for the explanations! I've never had a Schwingrahmen as I've chosen my own way and never looked back.

ddk said:
What you call vigor and energy is what I probably see as a shift in balance and hardening of the same frequencies. It's what I hear with most footer that equipment sits directly on. That hardening or vigor is a constant balance change which is an added coloration to the sound which we both hear but our subjective views of it are different.

No, no, this is not what I meant. It is not a constant addition. This vigor appears when needed (i.e. when the material calls for it)
and not being there constantly! The first impression is to the opposite that HF is calmed down, smoothened and in peace.
Sorry, English is not my mother tongue and explaining this
self-contradicting feelings is a pain. Its a bit like looking at a girl: Calm and peaceful but you feel that she can explode with emotions at some moment.
Not emotionally lazy so to speak.
And no, no hardening at all. We've heard it while experimenting but looks we have found a way how to deal with it. At least we never heard any complaint about hardening
from our customers/test listeners.

ddk said:
With CDPs I believe that with most of them their chassis and drive sections are under-built and don't effectively deal with the vibrations generated by the spinning disc which also effects the laser, I think an effective platform like yours will help drain and absorb some of these vibrations and resonances quieting everything down including the laser reader and like a camera lens less vibration equals better focus resulting in sharper and deeper images.

May be, still it's strange that the industry would go into all that hard core information/error correction theory instead of "simply" taking care of the drive-reader feedback.
Our CLD slate does seem to positively affect the resonance structure of a cabinet that's placed on it and the tighter the coupling the better (Marc has been reporting on that too).
For hard core customers we can even offer threaded inserts in the top plate
to bolt their equipment to the platform.

Great example with the camera. And hope to test our platforms one day in high quality photography too!

Best,

ddk · Aug 30, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
David, Mike Lavigne is having a bit of an epiphany w his 3-box Msb Select II, and I'm having my own w my digital served by Stacore isolation and Sablon Elite pwr cord.
It's really possible to get digital to play on analog's territory of midband and upper bass tone density and texture.
As a long term fanboy for vinyl (the number of people I bored to death about my hate for digital in the 80s is pretty high), I never thought I'd EVER be saying this.
I'll keep squeezing that digital lemon ?

I enjoy aspects of my digital setup and have an excellent sound but no matter how good the hardware gets it can't change the nature of the beast and at the end of the day it's still digital to me. Like tofu that will never taste like meat to me.

david

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